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And there are reports that Cubela was also assured that language would be inserted in a JFK speech to demonstrate JFK's own support for the Cubela operation (which happened at JFK's Nov 18 speech to the IAPA in Miami).  As I said in my first post, if Cubela was a Castro "dangle", it matters not whether RFK and/or JFK were indeed aware of the Cubela operation--Cubela (and through him Castro) were convinced that the plot was endorsed by the Kennedys.... 

If "Castro thought (rightly or wrongly, it matters not) that the Kennedys were behind efforts to kill him...." then it mattered greatly. This is key to my hypothesis that RFK was backdealing with FitzGerald against the expressed intentions of the president. Once one factors in the evidence that Trafficante was in cahoots with Castro, then the following observation takes on a very different meaning: "I think the significance of the fact that Trafficante had ties to both Ruby and Cubela can hardly be minimized. And there is evidence, of course, that the Trafficante organization was behind the murders of Giancana and Rosselli...." The Roselli/Fratianno disclosure of Trafficante's collusion with Castro turns it all upside down: the Castro-Trafficante drug-running alliance would then be seen as being behind the killing of JFK's killers.

As for the general sanctioning of assassination as a foreign policy tool, that was initiated under Eisenhower. Lumumba was killed the day before JFK's inauguration (so much for any transitional decency). The "plot against the Diems in Vietnam that led to their murders" was initiated in an infamous cable by certain players in D.C. while JFK was out of town. When he learned it had been sent, in August, 1963, he tried to turn it off and remarked that his "government was coming apart." By all accounts, JFK was shocked by the murder of Diem. If JFK had been complicit in Diem's assassination, why would Nixon be giving E. Howard Hunt an office in the White House to cut and paste a State Department cable to Henry Cabot Lodge implicating Kennedy in Diem's assassination?

"Perhaps the assassination of John F. Kennedy was the tragic price our country paid for the endorsement of murder as a valid instrument of foreign policy", meaning that JFK paid the price for trying to turn Eisenhower's policies around.

That cable frabicating episode is a lesson to all researchers and students of history about too easily relying upon what appears, at first glance, to be primary documentation. The only actual interview Hunt admitted to conducting before pulling out his exacto knife and tape was with...Lucien Conein.

Tim

Edited by Tim Carroll
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Jim

Good post. You and I see eye to eye on a lot of issues. Nosenko is one of the most impenetrable events in diplomatic history.  Why was Nosenko imprisoned in the United States, after defecting with the information that Oswald was not KGB?

Either Angleton thought he was lying, or didn't want the truth to get out. The more I read about Angleton's counter-intelligence witch hunts, the more I am starting to think he was the United States' version of Kim Philby and Guy Burgess.

Shanet

Have you (or Forum members in general) read the Analysis of Nosenko's [CIA] Polygraph Examination written by an expert engaged by the House Select Committee on Assassinations? I just ran across it on Ken Rahn's web-site. You can call it up here:

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/Marsh/HSCA/NOSENKO.TXT

The expert was quite critical of the CIA polygraphers. Interestingly, the expert did a "blind" analysis: i.e. he examined the charts to determine which answers indicated decption, without knowing the questions--which, of course, is the proper procedure. On October 18, 1966 Nosenko was given a polygraph test which contained 32 questions about LHO. The expert reported that Nosenko's answers to the following 10 questions contained (in his words) "valid indicators of lying":

I will first list the question and then the Nosenko answer.

ONE

Q. Did you receive special instructions about what to tell Americans about

the Oswald case?

A. No.

TWO

Q. Was Oswald recruited by the KGB as an agent?

A. No.

THREE

Q. Did the KGB consider Oswald abnormal?

A. No.

FOUR

Q. To your knowledge did Oswald talk to a KGB officer in Mexico City?

A. [Tim: None listed in the report I found on-line.]

FIVE

Q. Is your contact with the Oswald case part of your legend?

[Tim: None listed in the report I found on-line.]

SIX

Q. Did you hear of Oswald prior to President Kennedy's assassination?

A. Yes.

SEVEN

Q. Did you hear of Oswald only after President Kennedy's assassination?

A. No.

EIGHT

Q. Did you personally order ____________ in 1959, to collect materials on

Oswald?

A. Yes.

NINE

Q. Did the KGB instruct you to tell us that Oswald was a bad shot?

A. No.

TEN

Q. Did the KGB give the Oswalds any kind of help in their departure from

the Soviet Union?

A. No.

This report does not list every question the CIA polygraph examiner gave Nosenko. The expert listed four questions he would have asked Nosenko.

One of which was: Did the KGB order Oswald to assassinate President Kennedy?

By implication, incredibly, this question (presumably the most salient) was not one of the myriad questions propounded to Nosenko by the CIA polygraphist.

But if the expert was right, and Nosenko was lying, it means:

(1) The KGB recruited Oswald as an agent, and gave the Oswalds assistance in returning to the United States.

(2) Despite his statements about being the KGB agent in charge of the Oswald file, Nosenko had never heard of Oswald before the JFK assassination.

(3) Nosenko received special instructions about what to tell the Americans

about the Oswald case.

I need not comment on the implications of the above.

Nosenko was given polygraph examinations in 1964, 1966 and 1968. This report discusses all those examinations. The questions above came from the 1966 examination.

Any researcher interested in the Nosenko story should, IMO, read this report in its entirety. (It's 9 pages.)

While we are on the subject of polygraph examinations, it is my understanding that one of the reasons certain people in the CIA were wary of Cubela is that he had refused to take a CIA polygraph (in 1961 I believe.)

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Jim Root......

Nosenko was the Domestic Russian KGB, thirteenth division, working defectors, blackmail; a foreign assassinations case officer for the KGB. Before sent to Geneva for a non routine security job (for him) in 1962 he was in charge of Tourist and Embassy contacts with US and other possible defectors.

He came over right after Dallas. Through Germany by car. Spy coming in from cold.

Oswald was in USSR two and a half years, 1959-1962. Married Marina.

When Oswald went back to the Soviets in Mexico City in October 1963, he became a full triple agent, or low level asset. He was looking for the 13th division case officer.

1959 attempted suicide in order to stay in Soviet Union. He was allowed to express in and express out of Soviet Union, very unusual. Helms and McCone expressly let Nosenko defect in. AT debriefing, NOSENKO said he was officer in charge and was sure Oswald was not KGB. Imprisoned and tortured for lying, in unprecedented CIA house arrest, Nosenko languished, after defecting to America.

John, Jim, Tim, Tosh,

I've never seen Oswald as an agent.

Ive seen him as a program, a low level Marine Intelligence File, an unfortunate fellow that has been sent here (Atsugi) sent there (Moscow/Minsk) squired there (Dallas) asked to do this (Hands off Cuba/Fair Play For Cuba) that (espouse Marxism) and the other (work here).....for what?

I don't call that an agent ...I call that some low level asset you can use up when you need to .... a burn card. A patsy option.

A counter-intelligence conditioned 'false man' ??

But did the Russians get to him and flip him,

and get Oswald to write the suspicious diary,

did KGB USSR program Lee Oswald?/?

Not even Richard Helms and J. Jesus Angleton knew the answer to that question, but he was in place with his curtain rods and book boxes when the parade came thru town........so Nosenko got grilled and grilled.

Shanet

Edited by Shanet Clark
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Tim

I'm not sure that I agree that Oswald was a knowing intelligence agent.

Jim Root

I never said or implied "knowing."

Tim

Sorry if I was not clear. I was speaking for myself not for anyone else. It is my assumption that Oswald was not a "knowing intelligence agent." Rather, he was like (as Angleton speaks of) a fly that went from orchid to orchid not knowing that he was spreading the pollen that is necessary for the species to survive.

Jim Root

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Jim Root......

Nosenko was the Domestic Russian KGB, thirteenth division, working defectors, blackmail; a foreign assassinations case officer for the KGB.  Before sent to Geneva for a non routine security job (for him) in 1962 he was in charge of Tourist and Embassy contacts with US and other possible defectors. 

He came over right after Dallas. Through Germany by car. Spy coming in from cold.

Oswald was in USSR two and a half years, 1959-1962. Married Marina.

When Oswald went back to the Soviets in Mexico City in October 1963, he became a full triple agent, or low level asset. He was looking for the 13th division case officer.

1959 attempted suicide in order to stay in Soviet Union. He was allowed to express in and express out of Soviet Union, very unusual.  Helms and McCone expressly let Nosenko defect in. AT debriefing, NOSENKO said he was officer in charge and was sure Oswald was not KGB.  Imprisoned and tortured for lying, in unprecedented CIA house arrest, Nosenko languished, after defecting to America.

John, Jim, Tim, Tosh,

I've never seen Oswald as an agent. 

Ive seen him as a program, a low level Marine Intelligence File, an unfortunate fellow that has been sent here (Atsugi) sent there (Moscow/Minsk) squired there (Dallas) asked to do this (Hands off Cuba/Fair Play For Cuba) that (espouse Marxism) and the other (work here).....for what? 

I don't call that an agent ...I call that some low level asset you can use up when you need to .... a burn card. A patsy option.

A counter-intelligence conditioned 'false man' ??

But did the Russians get to him and flip him,

and get Oswald to write the suspicious diary,

did KGB USSR program Lee Oswald?/?

Not even Richard Helms and J. Jesus Angleton knew the answer to that question, but he was in place with his curtain rods and book boxes when the parade came thru town........so Nosenko got grilled and grilled.

Shanet

Shanet

I thought Nosenko, at least, made his contact with the CIA to defect in Geneva during the disarmament talks. I am not familiar with how he was transported to the US but do know it took time.

By the way....our main delegate to those talks (who I believe missed a Warren Commission meeting to be there at the time of the Nosenko defection) was John J. McCloy.

Just a coincidence I'm sure.

Jim Root

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Tim

I'm not sure that I agree that Oswald was a knowing intelligence agent.

Jim Root

I never said or implied "knowing."

Tim

Sorry if I was not clear. I was speaking for myself not for anyone else.

Jim Root

I probably was focused on the phrase, "not sure that I agree" in response to my post. I loved your piece paralleling Angleton's orchid fixation, noting that Oswald was "like a fly that went from orchid to orchid not knowing that he was spreading the pollen that is necessary for the species to survive."

Tim

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Tim

I see you live in Chico.  One of my kids goes to school up there.  Sometime, when I'm in the area, we should block off some time and talk.

Jim Root

Chico is the college town in mountain California with the Sierra Nevada pale ale,

the gold standard of pale ale on the US and International Scale and Independent reviews.

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On June 1, 1962 Lee and Marina Oswald receive a repat loan to return to the United States.  That same month Nosenko first makes contact with the CIA. Coincidence ?

Shortly after the assassination of JFK Nosenko defects.  Another coincidence?

Jim Root

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THAT WOULD BE INTERESTING EXCEPT THAT ALTHOUGH NOSENKO DID DEFECT AFTER THE ASSASSINATION, THAT WAS NOT AT ALL THE FIRST TIME HE APPRAOCHED THE CIA ABOUT THE SUBJECT.  IF I RECALL CORRECTLY, THIS HAD BEEN IN THE WORKS FOR MONTHS.  GOING BACK TO 1962.

I have to say, the subject of Nosenko makes me a bit ill.  If ever there was a defection that was handled the wrong way, it was this one.  It shows just how bad Jim Angleton was as a CI officer.  The fact that he was 1.) Allowed to do what he did to Nosenko, which by anyone's standards, except maybe his, was torture, and 2.) That he was not fired by Helms after, shows just how unbelievably bad the Old Boys Network was in the CIA and how debilitating it was to real intelligence work. 

The entire episode was an utter disgrace.

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On 7/10/2017 at 2:47 PM, Michael Clark said:

CIA abandoned logic to clear Soviet defector Yuri Nosenko

July 10, 2017

https://www.muckrock.com/news/archives/2017/jul/10/cia-nosenko-logic/

There is some "logic" to the Nosensko case?

I went back to the beginning of this thread to try, for the last time, to understand the story. And a post by Shanet Clark back in 2004 hits the nail on the head for me: "This case is so counter-counter-counter espionage, I can barely follow. I'm sure the other readers are completely in the dark."

I take exception only to Shanet's term "barely follow." I can't follow it at all. When I try to understand this case, it makes my head hurt. So I'm going to quit doing it. It's kind of like watching "Twin Peaks: The Return." It's fascinating but makes absolutely no sense.

But at this point I wouldn't even say the Nosensko case is fascinating. I think I know basically why the assassination happened, I"m pretty sure the Russians had nothing to do with it, and I'm not going to waste any more of my own time on Yuri Nosenko just to give myself a headache.

 

.

 

Edited by Ron Ecker
typo
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4 minutes ago, Ron Ecker said:

There is some "logic" to the Nosensko case?

I went back to the beginning of this thread to try, for the last time, to understand the story. And a post by Shanet Clark back in 2004 hits the nail on the head for me: "This case is so counter-counter-counter espionage, I can barely follow. I'm sure the other readers are completely in the dark."

I take exception only to Shanet's term "barely follow." I can't follow it at all. When I try to understand this case, it makes me head hurt. So I'm going to quit doing it. It's kind of like watching "Twin Peaks: The Return." It's fascinating but makes absolutely no sense.

But at this point I wouldn't even say the Nosensko case is fascinating. I think I know basically why the assassination happened, I"m pretty sure the Russians had nothing to do with it, and I'm not going to waste any more of my own time on Yuri Nosenko just to give myself a headache.

 

.

 

I shared that link here when Doug Caddy had posted it in another forum. The Nosenko story is mostly, as Jim pointed-out, just sickening. In isolation the Nosenko story, I agree, is enigmatic. In my pet CT, however, where Angleton was unaware of and not a participant in the Dallas hit, it makes more sense.

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