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Excellent point, that's what Nix shows, but Greer was way way slow before that...and some witnesses place eight to ten seconds between shots. Still,

I am very concerned about the actions of the 1963 security team.

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Excellent point, that's what Nix shows, but Greer was way way slow before that...and some witnesses place eight to ten seconds between shots. Still,

I am very concerned about the actions of the 1963 security team.

Sorry the screen froze. Double post fault!

Edited by Shanet Clark
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Excellent point, that's what Nix shows, but Greer was way way slow before that...and some witnesses place eight to ten seconds between shots. Still,

I am very concerned about the actions of the 1963 security team.

I agree wholeheartedly. There was apparently a huge amount of time between the initial vollies and the later ones, during which time the limo driving was incompetent at best.

Tim

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Excellent point, that's what Nix shows, but Greer was way way slow before that...and some witnesses place eight to ten seconds between shots. Still,

I am very concerned about the actions of the 1963 security team.

I agree wholeheartedly. There was apparently a huge amount of time between the initial vollies and the later ones, during which time the limo driving was incompetent at best.

Tim

Tim and Shanet,

I have spent a great deal of time looking at the reactions and responses of the USSS in DP. Besides my background in Dignitary Protection, I have also worked on studies involving Action v. Reaction v. Response in Law Enforcement cases.

The initial study done on this was by Professor Bill Lewinski of the University of Minnesota and an associate of the esteemed Caliber Press Training Program. I asisted Larry Hahn, who has authored text books for LE and for Caliber Press and who is also longtime instructor for the annual ASLET International Training Seminars, in breaking down the action v. reaction v. response with hands on experiments. What we found was that the average experienced LE officer will take between 1 and 1.5 seconds to react to a direct threat (generally a one-on-one situation) and then 1 to 1 1/2 times as much time as the reaction, to respond. This deals with issues of perception, processing what is seen and heard, and then subconscious planning and acting on response.

The DP incident would even slow the reaction and response more as the threat would not be in a one-on-one sequence of events, the noise detection would be compromised by the sounds of the motorcade, the noise detection would be challenged by possible backfiring of the motorcycles and even nearly consistent with fireworks that were heard earlier, and lastly the fact that the motorcade has just exited a congested Main Street into a nearly vacant DP with the Stemmons ahead. The latter would subconsciously cause the agents to relax somewhat.

In vieiwng the films and photos of the event, I was able to determine that if Hill reacted immediately to the first shot, as seen in Altgens 6 and which is comparable to Zapruder frame 217, taking into context his testimony that he turned to face the source of the shot and observed JFK clutching reaction as his view passed over the limo as he was looking back, and his reaching the limo at Zapruder Frame 327, the film travelling at 18fps, this would have taken roughly 5.5 seconds. Take away the 2 - 2.5 seconds it would have taken Hill to close on the moving limo from the follow-up car, his response time would have been roughly 3 to 3.5 seconds. This is even better than one would expect.

If we use Altgens 6 and Zapruder 217 as a basis, Greer reacted slower to the audio stimulous than Hill, and his response was parallel in time as he accelerated when Hill reached the limo. His overall response would have been in the neighborhood of 5 seconds. Then consider his additional responsibility of driving the limo and focusing on the road ahead, the overpass and the crowds to his right front, it is still acceptable.

There are other factos involved here also of a political nature that somewhat handicapped the response time of the agents. These were laid out by Kennedy's team in keeping agents off the limo as much as possible, the open limo and the route. These compromises were established for the sake of exposure to the people.

Al

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The DP incident would even slow the reaction and response more as the threat would not be in a one-on-one sequence of events, the noise detection would be compromised by the sounds of the motorcade, the noise detection would be challenged by possible backfiring of the motorcycles and even nearly consistent with fireworks that were heard earlier, and lastly the fact that the motorcade has just exited a congested Main Street into a nearly vacant DP with the Stemmons ahead. The latter would subconsciously cause the agents to relax somewhat.

In viewng the films and photos of the event, I was able to determine that if Hill reacted immediately to the first shot, as seen in Altgens 6 and which is comparable to Zapruder frame 217, taking into context his testimony that he turned to face the source of the shot and observed JFK clutching reaction as his view passed over the limo as he was looking back, and his reaching the limo at Zapruder Frame 327, the film travelling at 18fps, this would have taken roughly 5.5 seconds. Take away the 2 - 2.5 seconds it would have taken Hill to close on the moving limo from the follow-up car, his response time would have been roughly 3 to 3.5 seconds. This is even better than one would expect.

If we use Altgens 6 and Zapruder 217 as a basis, Greer reacted slower to the audio stimulous than Hill, and his response was parallel in time as he accelerated when Hill reached the limo. His overall response would have been in the neighborhood of 5 seconds. Then consider his additional responsibility of driving the limo and focusing on the road ahead, the overpass and the crowds to his right front, it is still acceptable. [/color]

Being a technically challenged, but suspicious person, I appreciated Tosh's suggestion, which I mentioned earlier in this thread, that in addition to Al's above points, the momentary braking between Zf312-313 could be attributed to Greer working with Clint Hill's attempt to get onto the limo. I always struggle to find non-malevolent explanations for these problems with which we wrestle, because otherwise we are confronted with too widespread a conspiracy for believability. While having struggled with Greer's performance for years, it helped immensely to hear that benevolent possibility.

Tim

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Tosh,

I got you a new domain  :o

http://toshplumlee.info/

Wim

Wim: Thanks for the help. I have been away for a few days. I will bring this site up to date for the FORUM. I think I can add a few good tid-bits of info for all. I should be back in circulation in a few weeks.

Meanwhile. Look into Congressman Tom Downing and the information he had obtained in 1973-75, before the HSCA was formed. There is a good lead in that stuff. Gonzles had purged most of Downing's early stuff. Also. look intio the M-26-7 for good background information. It will fall into place if you really look. Thanks again. Tosh

P.S. I was not the pilot on the MM matter.

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Tosh,

Wim: Thanks for the help.  I have been away for a few days.  I will bring this site up to date for the FORUM.  I think I can add a few good tid-bits of info for all.  I should be back in circulation in a few weeks.

Did you know Richard Case Nagell?

Steve Thomas

Steve. No I did not know him. I knew of him, but that came years later.

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As an admitted covert operative, I certainly can assume that Tosh has lied, plenty.

Tim Carroll

Tim...is this simply faulty grammar, or are you admitting to being a covert operative?

Jack :blink:

LOL. Very "faulty grammar." I meant to say that Tosh is an admitted covert operative. Thanks for the catch, Jack. I'll try to be more careful. For the record, I am not and never have been a covert operative. Oops.

Jack, I have a request to make of you. You partial frame of the Nix film showing containing the caption regarding cartop man no more being there than Zapruder and Sitzman is the best quality single Nix frame I've seen. Is there a chance you would provide the whole frame, including the limo? And also one showing the aftermath, approximately 5 seconds after the headshot, when Nix pans back to the North Knoll? I will post here the frame of yours I'm describing. I would appreciate those very much. I've called Gary Mack asking him if knew someone who could provide such and that I would be willing to pay for the time and effort. I really want to possess at least those two high quality Nix frame captures.

Tim

Edited by Tim Carroll
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As an admitted covert operative, I certainly can assume that Tosh has lied, plenty.

Tim Carroll

Tim...is this simply faulty grammar, or are you admitting to being a covert operative?

Jack :blink:

LOL. Very "faulty grammar." I meant to say that Tosh is an admitted covert operative. Thanks for the catch, Jack. I'll try to be more careful. For the record, I am not and never have been a covert operative. Oops.

Jack, I have a request to make of you. You partial frame of the Nix film showing containing the caption regarding cartop man no more being there than Zapruder and Sitzman is the best quality single Nix frame I've seen. Is there a chance you would provide the whole frame, including the limo? And also one showing the aftermath, approximately 5 seconds after the headshot, when Nix pans back to the North Knoll? I will post here the frame of yours I'm describing. I would appreciate those very much. I've called Gary Mack asking him if knew someone who could provide such and that I would be willing to pay for the time and effort. I really want to possess at least those two high quality Nix frame captures.

Tim

That particular frame was furnished to me ALREADY CROPPED by

Jim Fetzer, who was given it by a production company who tried

to convince Beverly Oliver that it was a frame from her film. I

convinced Jim and Bev that it is actually a Nix frame, by showing

them a comparison. The answer is...I do not have the full frame

in that quality. I have no idea how they achieved quality this good.

Jack

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That particular frame was furnished to me ALREADY CROPPED by

Jim Fetzer, who was given it by a production company who tried

to convince Beverly Oliver that it was a frame from her film. I

convinced Jim and Bev that it is actually a Nix frame, by showing

them a comparison. The answer is...I do not have the full frame

in that quality. I have no idea how they achieved quality this good.

Jack

Well...I was wrong. Fetzer sent me four frames, and they

were NOT ALREADY CROPPED. They were tilted to a

proper downhill angle and the color corrected. Here

are all four, compared to the same Nix frames. Sorry.

I was going from memory instead of checking my

computer files.

I can furnish a big scan of any of these four.

Jack :blink:

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  • 1 year later...
I have known Tosh Plumlee since before the release of Oliver Stone's film "JFK". He has taken me on a guided tour of Dealey Plaza and South Dallas on more than one occasion. While I cannot vouch for 100 percent of his story as I have been unable to substantiate it all, I can state that it has remained remarkably consistent through the years and, over time, has been more and more supported by documents released from the U.S. Government as well as the trstimony of others. From the beginning, he told me that the only person on his Dallas flight of 11-22-63 that he had known previously was Johnny Roselli and that Roselli got off at the first landing at Garland Airport. Tosh also pointed out to me several CIA-backed Cuban "safehouses" in South Dallas as well as the garage apartment behind Oswald's rooming house. Much of what he told me has been verified by outside sources. He also led me to the Oswald apartment on Elsbeth St. and correctly described the odd configuration of the outside door long before we arrived there, indicating to me his prior knowledge of the place. I have been with Tosh on many occasions, including a lengthy driving trip to Florida and Alpha 66 headquarters, and have never seen him in a drunken state. His memory for people, places and dates continues to amaze me. There are now certain individuals who claim that Tosh is unstable, a drunk, a xxxx or a combination of all three. In my book, this is patently untrue. It should be noted that these same individuals have proven not only inconsistent and abusive in their statements, but have totally reversed declarative statements made only a few years ago. It is easy to call names and make accusations. It is not so easy to erase the memories of those who once listened to such self-appointed authorities.

__________________________________________________________

Jim,

Thank you for posting this information about Mr. Plumlee. Very informative.

I wish everyone on this forum could express themselves as well as you do syntactically, gramatically, SPELLING-WISE, so "on point" and in such a coherent way.

I am also very interested in the postings of GPH, (whom I also highly respect) :D , especially regarding Plumlee's accounts of what "went down." Comments, anyone??

Thanks, Thomas

___________________________________________________________

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