When did the Coke Appear?

[Steve Thomas]

13 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

Stavis Ellis spoke 3x about this and each time the story is different.

see my paper

Bart,

 

What paper is that? If it's online, could you provide me with a link?

I'd be interested in reading it.

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

[Guest]

See above Steve I edited my post just while you were posting.

[Steve Thomas]

4 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Major (!) Stavis Ellis spoke 3x about this and each time the story is different.

see my paper

http://dealeyplazauk.org.uk/pdfArticles/Anatomy of the second floor lunch room encounter Aug 27 2017-by_Bart Kamp.pdf

Bart,

 

Thanks for this. Pretty impressive work you did there.

 

Couple of small things:

 

That's a pretty s***y first floor coffee area on page 42. I'd hate to have to work there.

I believe that the policeman who stopped Oswald at the front door was Erich Kaminsky.

In his after-action report, Lumpkin wrote that,

DPD Archives Box 14, Folder# 4, Item# 10, page 21 (#22 in the list of gif files)

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box14.htm

 

"At that time, Lumpkin entered the building and instructed that it be completely sealed off, that no one be allowed to leave or enter. Lieutenant Erich Kaminsky was placed on the inner door of the building,..."

 

It's an interesting study trying to determine who was the first one who ordered the building sealed. In that Report Lumpkin wrote that upon his arrival at the TSBD, "Sawyer had placed guards on the building to prevent anyone from going in or out." But, in the very next paragraph, he wrote, " "At that time, Lumpkin entered the building and instructed that it be completely sealed off, that no one be allowed to leave or enter."

Why would he need to issue those instructions if it had already been done?

The WC Commission seemed very skeptical of when Sawyer actually ordered the building to be sealed off. It sounds like he went inside and upstairs before he came back down and went back outside before he ordered the building sealed. Lumpkin wrote that when he arrived at the TSBD, he found Sawyer outside on the sidewalk.

Sawyer was an Inspector, which means that he spent his time making sure other policemen were doing their jobs right. I'm not sure how much experience he had in securing crime scenes.

 

Fritz and Sawyer and Lumpkin all claimed to be the one that ordered the building sealed. I've tried to picture in my mind the confusion that must have reigned in the average Joe Policeman's mind as different supervisors in different command chains were issuing different orders. "You go over there, But my boss said to go over there".

 

Steve Thomas

 

PS: Yo'ure right. Ellis didn't have much use for Baker, or McLain either for that matter. According to what he told Larry Sneed, he'd been a motorcycle cop for more than thirty years.

 

[Guest]

Thanks Steve and yes the Kaminsky part is right and I added this to the up and coming update a month or so ago.  Greg Parker has already made mention of this at the ROKC forum.

"Edit" this doc you referred to is also at MFF

 

The release of my update to the paper (25 extra pages) will be hopefully next week.

 

Edited January 19, 2018 by Bart Kamp
Adding MFF link

[Guest]

And with regards sealing of the building, one may as well throw in Sorrels in the mix when he entered through the back and spoke with Piper and subsequently then ordered the building sealed...............

[B. A. Copeland]

On 12/13/2017 at 1:34 PM, James DiEugenio said:

Since Baker was confused about this point all the way to September, and I don't think Truly mentioned it in his testimony, when was the first appearance of the Coke Oswald allegedly was drinking on the second floor?

Did it come from the Fritz notes?

Hey Jimbo, could you clear out your PM inbox? I wanted to send you an important message :). Please and thanks bud!

[David Josephs]

On ‎12‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 1:34 PM, James DiEugenio said:

Since Baker was confused about this point all the way to September, and I don't think Truly mentioned it in his testimony, when was the first appearance of the Coke Oswald allegedly was drinking on the second floor?

Did it come from the Fritz notes?

(edit) Sorry... you're right about the Coke being in Fritz's notes... but when exactly where they written?

"Claims 2nd floor Coke when
off came in"

=================

Truly, Baker and Reid testify to the WC on the same day, one after the other... March 25th.

The first appearance seems to be Mrs. Reid's testimony.... and then Baker's recant from Sept

 

Mr. DULLES. Did he have a coke? 
Mr. TRULY. No, sir. 
Mr. DULLES. No drink? 
Mr. TRULY. No drink at all. Just standing there. 

Mr. BELIN - All right. I see a coke machine off on the left. When you saw Oswald after you got to this doorway inside the lunchroom, had he gone as far as the coke machine?
Mr. BAKER - I didn't notice the coke machine or any item in the room there All I was looking at was the man, and he seemed to be approximately 20 feet down there from me.

When Baker rewrites his statement the day before the WCR is delivered, the man in the lunchroom was already drinking a coke...  Baker can't even get his rewrite correct... and must change what he wrote to jive with the story.

 

Mrs. REID. Well, I kept walking and I looked up and Oswald was coming in the back door of the office. I met him by the time I passed my desk several feet and I told him, I said, "Oh, the President has been shot, but maybe they didn't hit him." 
He mumbled something to me, I kept walking, he did, too. I didn't pay any attention to what he said because I had no thoughts of anything of him having any connection with it at all because he was very calm. He had gotten a coke and was holding it in his hands and I guess the reason it impressed me seeing him in there I thought it was a little strange that one of -the warehouse boys would be up in the office at the time, not that he had done anything wrong. The only time I had seen him in the office was to come and get change and he already had his coke in his hand so he didn't come for change and I dismissed him. I didn't think anything else. 

 

Edited June 18, 2018 by David Josephs

[Ron Bulman]

6 hours ago, David Josephs said:

(edit) Sorry... you're right about the Coke being in Fritz's notes... but when exactly where they written?

"Claims 2nd floor Coke when
off came in"

=================

Truly, Baker and Reid testify to the WC on the same day, one after the other... March 25th.

The first appearance seems to be Mrs. Reid's testimony.... and then Baker's recant from Sept

 

Mr. DULLES. Did he have a coke? 
Mr. TRULY. No, sir. 
Mr. DULLES. No drink? 
Mr. TRULY. No drink at all. Just standing there. 

Mr. BELIN - All right. I see a coke machine off on the left. When you saw Oswald after you got to this doorway inside the lunchroom, had he gone as far as the coke machine?
Mr. BAKER - I didn't notice the coke machine or any item in the room there All I was looking at was the man, and he seemed to be approximately 20 feet down there from me.

When Baker rewrites his statement the day before the WCR is delivered, the man in the lunchroom was already drinking a coke...  Baker can't even get his rewrite correct... and must change what he wrote to jive with the story.

Mrs. REID. Well, I kept walking and I looked up and Oswald was coming in the back door of the office. I met him by the time I passed my desk several feet and I told him, I said, "Oh, the President has been shot, but maybe they didn't hit him." 
He mumbled something to me, I kept walking, he did, too. I didn't pay any attention to what he said because I had no thoughts of anything of him having any connection with it at all because he was very calm. He had gotten a coke and was holding it in his hands and I guess the reason it impressed me seeing him in there I thought it was a little strange that one of -the warehouse boys would be up in the office at the time, not that he had done anything wrong. The only time I had seen him in the office was to come and get change and he already had his coke in his hand so he didn't come for change and I dismissed him. I didn't think anything else. 

 

The simple stupidity of what Mrs. Reid said impressed me a while back.  Lone nutters would say what she meant was "Oh, the President's been shot, but maybe they didn't kill him".  But what she said was he had been shot, but maybe they didn't hit him.  Slap me with a cast iron skillet.  If you get shot, then the shot hit.

Maybe she was nervous and misspoke.  Maybe she was nervous, following her bosses lead, didn't want to loose her job, had been spoken to about loyalty, even Patriotism, Communism,  National Security, a Nuclear War, by someone above Truly's pay grade, and misspoke.

I know this is outlandish speculation but it is possible that Reid, Baker and Truly were "coached" regarding the official story that had (been) developed.  The evidence indicates that the official story was incorrect.

 

Edited January 23, 2018 by Ron Bulman

[David Josephs]

12 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

I know this is outlandish speculation but it is possible that Reid, Baker and Truly were "coached" regarding the official story that had (been) developed.  The evidence indicates that the official story was incorrect.

Kinda like Bledsoe and the bus trip

Not outlandish at all...    Bledsoe could never tell us about Oswald's ARREST shirt (with the torn buttons and torn elbow) before he had gone home and changed.
I don't see that Oswald was on that bus (McWatters even denies it was Oswald) but he had to be for the scenario to work...

Bledsoe, like so many other witnesses if you read thru the testimony, was led into the directions needed.  As were Truly and Baker regarding the lunchroom encounter.

=====

{sigh}

This is not like any other case... the Evidence IS the Conspiracy, not indicative of the initial crime...

Besides...  let's look at what it would take for Oswald to have been in that window at the right time with a rifle ready to fire:  https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/oswald-on-november-22-1963

Cheers

DJ

[Ron Bulman]

47 minutes ago, Rich Pope said:

No.  Bugliosi verified there was a Dr. Pepper machine on the 1st floor.  The second-floor Coke incident never happened.  

How did Bugliosi verify this?  He is a questionable resource for some readers/researchers.  After all Jim D did write a book refuting his door stop. 

[David Von Pein]

Rich Pope said:

Bugliosi verified there was a Dr. Pepper machine on the 1st floor.

 

7 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

How did Bugliosi verify this?

Vincent Bugliosi verified it by looking at an FBI photo that appears in Commission Document No. 496, which shows the Dr. Pepper machine near the stairs on the first floor. This picture, available to the public for many years (although not in the 26 volumes), had apparently never been noticed by any researcher prior to Bugliosi, not even the very thorough Gary Mack....

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc/Dr. Pepper Machine On First Floor Of Book Depository Building

Plus....

Bugliosi also confirmed the existence of the first-floor Dr. Pepper machine when he talked with Buell Wesley Frazier on the telephone on March 24, 2004. Here are the excerpts from Vince's book concerning that topic....

"Indeed there was a Coca-Cola machine in the [second-floor lunch] room. But to my knowledge, there is no direct reference in the assassination literature to a second soft drink machine in the Book Depository Building.

[...]

Neither [Bonnie Ray] Williams nor [Wesley] Frazier expressly said what floor this [second soda] machine was on. .... Through a few phone calls I was able to reach Wesley Frazier, whom I hadn't talked to since 1986, when he testified for me at the London trial. Still living in Dallas, he told me that "there was a Dr. Pepper machine on the first floor." Where, specifically, was it? [Frazier:] "It was located by the double freight elevator near the back of the building."

[...]

And indeed, I subsequently found proof of the existence of the machine, with the words "Dr. Pepper" near the top front of it, in an FBI photo taken for the Warren Commission of the northwest corner of the first floor, and it is located right next to the refrigerator.

[...]

So we see that apart from all the conclusive evidence that Oswald shot Kennedy from the sniper's nest, and therefore had to have descended from there to the second floor, his story about going up to the second floor to get a Coke doesn't even make sense. Why go up to the second floor to get a drink for your lunch when there's a soft drink machine on the first floor, the floor you say you are already on, particularly when the apparent drink of your choice [Dr. Pepper by all accounts] is on this first floor, not the second floor?" -- Vincent Bugliosi; Pages 957-958 of "Reclaiming History"

More....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com / Dr. Pepper Talk

 

Edited January 14, 2019 by David Von Pein