When did the Coke Appear?

[Sandy Larsen]

On 12/23/2017 at 10:52 AM, David Von Pein said:

"We have proof that Lovelady lied, and Shelley lied, and we know from Victoria Adams that the WC altered her testimony." -- S. Larsen

You must not have been around when Tommy Graves and I discovered the whereabouts of Gloria Calvery in the Darnell Film. Here she is about 30 seconds after the shots took place:

 

 

She is telling Lovelady about the shooting.

In Bill Shelley's first day statement, he said that after the shots took place he immediately ran across the Elm Street extension and bumped into Gloria Calvery at the corner concrete island there. The two then ran back to the TSBD steps and Shelley went inside to call his wife.

The frame from the Darnell film above shows Gloria talking to Billy Lovelady. We don't see Shelley because he's already gone inside to call his wife.

Shelley's first-day statement, Lovelady's first-day statement, and the above Darnell frame are all consistent with one other.

But everything changed by the time Shelley and Lovelady gave their WC testimonies. Instead of Shelley immediately running across and bumping into Gloria Calvery just seconds after the shots, he testified that he waited on the steps three or four minutes after the shots were fired, and that he met Gloria there at the steps!

And from Lovelady's point of view, instead of Gloria running up to him within 30 seconds of the shots, his WC testimony was that he -- just like Shelley -- waited on the steps for three minutes before Gloria arrived.

What the WC needed from Shelley and Lovelady was for them to be inside the TSBD near the west entrance several minutes after the shooting occurred, for Victoria Adam's to see. Because this would discredit her testimony. But that's a story for another time.

Look at 1) how Shelley's and Lovelady's stories evolved, and 2) how the location of where they spent several minutes changed:

Billy Lovelady

     DPD Affidavit, 11/22/63
          http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/04/0470-001.gif

"After [the shooting] was over we went back into the building...."

     FBI Report, 11/22/63
          http://www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/FBI-Report-BNL-Nov-23-1963.jpg

"....immediately after hearing the shots [Lovelady] and Shelley started running towards the presidential car, but it sped away.... [They] then returned to the [TSBD]...."

      FBI Statement, 3/19/64
          http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf
          (See page 62.)

"....following the shooting, I ran toward the spot where President Kennedy's car had stopped. William Shelley and myself stayed in that area for approximately five minutes when we then re-entered the Depository building by the side door located on the west side of the building."

     WC Deposition, 4/7/64
          http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/lovelady.htm
          https://www.jfk-assassination.com/warren/wch/vol6/page336.php

Paraphrasing for brevity's sake: "About three minutes after the shots, Gloria Calvery arrived. After speaking with her, [we] walked quickly to the railroad tracks, and then entered the west door of the TSBD."

 

Billy Lovelady's 1963 statements are in accordance to what we see in the Darnell film. But both of his 1964 statements contradict what we see in the film. And those 1964 statements contradict each other. As for where their time was spent, Lovelady's 3/19/64 statement has him and Shelley spending five minutes down where Kennedy's limo had stopped. His 4/7/64 testimony has him (and presumably Shelley) spending three minutes on the steps before leaving.

 

Bill Shelley

     DPD Affidavit, 11/22/63
          http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/04/0492-001.gif

"I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into [Gloria Calvery].... I went back to the building and went inside and called my wife and told her what happened."

     FBI Statement, 3/18/64
          http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf
          (See page 84.)

"Immediately following the shooting, Billy N. Lovelady and I accompanied some uniformed police officers to the railroad yard just west of the building and returned through the west side of the building about ten minutes later."

     WC Deposition, 4/7/64
          http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/shelley1.htm
          https://www.jfk-assassination.com/warren/wch/vol6/page327.php

Paraphrasing for brevity's sake: "About three or four minutes after the shots, Gloria Calvery arrived. Billy Lovelady and I ran across the street to the concrete island and stopped for a minute. We then walked to the first railroad track and watched them searching for a while, after which we entered the west door of the TSBD."

 

Bill Shelley's 1963 statement is in accordance to what we see in the Darnell film. But both of his 1964 statements contradict what we see in the film. And those 1964 statements contradict each other. As for where their time was spent, Shelley's 3/18/64 statement has him and Lovelady spending ten minutes at the railroad yard. His 4/7/64 testimony has him and Lovelady spending three minutes on the steps before leaving.

So, in summary,

• Shelley and Lovelady's 1963 statements and the Darnell film are all consistent with each other. None of them mention the walk down to the railroad yard and entering the TSBD by way of the west entrance.
• Only in 1964 do their statements 1) mention the railroad yard, 2) mention waiting somewhere for several minutes, and 3) mention entering the west entrance of the TSBD. Those three elements were concocted to discredit Victoria Adams' timing.
• And so it's no big surprise that it's only the 1964 statements where all the irreconcilable inconsistencies are introduced.

 

Edited December 25, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Sandy Larsen]

[duplicate deleted]

Edited December 23, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Sandy Larsen]

47 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

So, you think Oswald DIDN'T own a rifle?

That's right.

You think Oswald bought his revolver in Fort Worth?

That wasn't in your list. And I haven't studied the revolver.

You think Oswald was telling the TRUTH when he said he had never used the alias "Hidell" in his life?

He did lie about that. He was hiding his CIA activities.

You think Oswald was telling the truth when he said he had never said anything at all about "curtain rods" to Wes Frazier?

I don't believe the curtain rod story. Though admittedly I haven't figured it out.

You think Oswald was being truthful when he said he didn't carry any large-ish bag into the TSBD on Nov. 22?

That's right.

You think Oswald was being truthful when he said "I didn't shoot anybody" (not even J.D. Tippit)?!

Of course! There was no credible evidence of Oswald shooting anybody. The rifle wasn't his. The backyard photos are fake. (It's easy to prove so.) He was obviously a patsy.

And on and on....

 

 

[David Von Pein]

Sandy Larsen said:

In summary,

....Shelley and Lovelady's 1963 statements and the Darnell film are all consistent with each other. None of them mention the walk down to the railroad yard and entering the TSBD by way of the west entrance.

....Only in 1964 do their statements 1) mention the railroad yard, 2) mention waiting somewhere for several minutes, and 3) mention entering the west entrance of the TSBD. Those three elements were concocted to discredit Victoria Adams' timing.

....And so it's no big surprise that it's only the 1964 statements where all the irreconcilable inconsistencies are introduced.

Sandy,

I think you're assigning assumed levels of accuracy that are way too high when it comes to your interpretation of all of those various witness statements. Via such statements, given over a period of time (and which vary to some degree in their details, including adding more details [TRUE details, mind you, not made-up details] to subsequent tellings of their story which they had not previously mentioned, which is a very normal thing to have happen when someone tells a story over and over again), there's no way to pinpoint a perfect timeline with spot-on accuracy. Can't be done.

And the reason it can't be done is mainly because none of those witnesses was specifically TIMING anything that they did on November 22nd. Therefore, when they told their stories later on, they were providing ESTIMATES (i.e., their BEST GUESSES) concerning how long it took them to do this or that. To think we could possibly nail with detailed precision (practically right down to the minute) the type of exact timeline that the conspiracy theorists require would be akin to believing in miracles.

In short, there was absolutely no need for Billy Lovelady or Bill Shelley to "lie" about anything that happened on 11/22/63. And I see no "proof" that either one of them did.

You, Sandy, obviously strongly disagree with me. But to think that someone within "Officialdom" somehow got all of these various people (Lovelady, Shelley, Baker, Truly, and maybe more?) to tell a bunch of lies just so the official "patsy framers" could say the second-floor lunchroom encounter took place is something that I think all reasonable people would consider to be a totally FANTASTIC idea. And it's a fantastic idea that I don't think the conspiracy theorists have nearly enough support for.

Also....

Why is it that so many people who weren't charged with committing two murders (e.g., Billy Lovelady, Bill Shelley, Marrion Baker, et al) are accused of being liars in the JFK case, and the person who was charged with two murders is treated with kid gloves by so many conspiracists? Isn't that also a rather "fantastic" idea? (I think it is.)

But thanks, Sandy, for providing your detailed response in this thread. This discussion has made a good addition to my JFK Archives.

 

Edited December 23, 2017 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

SANDY LARSEN SAID:

That wasn't in your list [about "Fort Worth" and the revolver].


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Yes, it was. It's in Part 2 of my "Oswald's Lies" series.


SANDY LARSEN SAID:

He [Lee Harvey Oswald] was obviously a patsy.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

My thoughts on the matter....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/The "Patsy Plot" Silliness (Part 1)
 

Edited December 23, 2017 by David Von Pein

[Ron Bulman]

Until I finish reading Bart's article, from what I have read over many years...  The coke appeared when Oswald maybe told FBI Bookout and/or DPD Captain Fritz he ate his cheese sandwich in the domino room, got a coke, and, went out front with Shelly.  Is that not in essence what he reputedly said, without any embellishment to a couple of law enforcement officers that likely helped frame him?

[Ron Bulman]

On ‎12‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 2:53 PM, Bart Kamp said:

Got himself a ranch. Think his widow may still be alive.

A ranch on a patrolman's salary is quite an accomplishment.  I wonder if maybe he invested well or inherited?   

Edited December 24, 2017 by Ron Bulman

[Guest]

10 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Sandy,

I think you're assigning assumed levels of accuracy that are way too high when it comes to your interpretation of all of those various witness statements. Via such statements, given over a period of time (and which vary to some degree in their details, including adding more details [TRUE details, mind you, not made-up details] to subsequent tellings of their story which they had not previously mentioned, which is a very normal thing to have happen when someone tells a story over and over again), there's no way to pinpoint a perfect timeline with spot-on accuracy. Can't be done.

And the reason it can't be done is mainly because none of those witnesses was specifically TIMING anything that they did on November 22nd. Therefore, when they told their stories later on, they were providing ESTIMATES (i.e., their BEST GUESSES) concerning how long it took them to do this or that. To think we could possibly nail with detailed precision (practically right down to the minute) the type of exact timeline that the conspiracy theorists require would be akin to believing in miracles.

In short, there was absolutely no need for Billy Lovelady or Bill Shelley to "lie" about anything that happened on 11/22/63. And I see no "proof" that either one of them did.

You, Sandy, obviously strongly disagree with me. But to think that someone within "Officialdom" somehow got all of these various people (Lovelady, Shelley, Baker, Truly, and maybe more?) to tell a bunch of lies just so the official "patsy framers" could say the second-floor lunchroom encounter took place is something that I think all reasonable people would consider to be a totally FANTASTIC idea. And it's a fantastic idea that I don't think the conspiracy theorists have nearly enough support for.

Also....

Why is it that so many people who weren't charged with committing two murders (e.g., Billy Lovelady, Bill Shelley, Marrion Baker, et al) are accused of being liars in the JFK case, and the person who was charged with two murders is treated with kid gloves by so many conspiracists? Isn't that also a rather "fantastic" idea? (I think it is.)

But thanks, Sandy, for providing your detailed response in this thread. This discussion has made a good addition to my JFK Archives.

 

Good idea of archiving it, this thread shows how outgunned you are.

You have been overtaken and left far far behind. Your argumentation falls completely flat.

Perhaps you will learn from this some day.

Since it's the holidays one can only hope.

[David Von Pein]

7 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Good idea of archiving it, this thread shows how outgunned you are.

You have been overtaken and left far far behind. Your argumentation falls completely flat.

Perhaps you will learn from this some day.

Since it's the holidays[,] one can only hope.

Yeah, thank the Maker I have all these astute Education Forum members to tell me what really went down with respect to all those rotten liars named Truly, Baker, Shelley, and Lovelady. Otherwise, I'd just be totally lost.

Edited December 24, 2017 by David Von Pein

[Sandy Larsen]

20 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

In short, there was absolutely no need for Billy Lovelady or Bill Shelley to "lie" about anything that happened on 11/22/63. And I see no "proof" that either one of them did.

 

Shelley and Lovelady BOTH changed zero seconds to three minutes. The Darnell film shows that their initial assessments were correct, the three minutes wrong. BOTH made that change! How convenient for the two to be wrong in the very same way.

The reason you think their was no reason for them to lie is that you don't know the whole story. According to Victoria Adams' testimony, she came down the step shortly after the shots. Oddly she didn't hear anybody else using the steps. She should have heard Oswald going down to the 2nd floor.

Her testimony continues... that when she reached the first floor she saw Shelley and Lovelady, who had supposedly just entered the west entrance SEVERAL MINUTES after the shooting.

WC concluded from this that Victoria Adams did NOT come down the steps as quickly as she had thought. Because it had taken Shelley and Lovelady several minutes before they had entered the west door.

Therefore Victoria Adams' testimony was discredited. She didn't hear Oswald come down the steps because she came down later that what she'd thought.

NOW, HERE'S THE RUB... a few years ago researcher Barry Earnest interviewed Victoria Adams. She told him that she she did NOT see Lovelady and Shelley upon her arrival at the first floor. The WC had changed her testimony to her saying that she DID see them!

I believe it was that revelation that got researchers looking closely at the testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady, and the Darnell film.  And we now have a nearly complete picture of what really happened. Shelley and Lovelady lied about the 3 minute wait. (Though their initial statements were correct.) Baker lied about the second-floor encounter. (Though his initial statement was probably correct.) Victoria Adam's testimony was changed. (Her actual testimony was correct.) And I believe Adams had a coworker who corroborates her actual testimony... was it Sandra Styles? This person wasn't ask to testify before the WC.

So there we have it. ALL the initial statements fit together like a glove, and are supported by what we see in the Darnell film. In contrast, the later WC testimony is wildly inconsistent with the original statements and Darnell film.

The second floor encounter did not happen.

 

[David Von Pein]

SANDY LARSEN SAID:

Shelley and Lovelady BOTH changed zero seconds to three minutes. The Darnell film shows that their initial assessments were correct, the three minutes wrong. BOTH made that change! How convenient for the two to be wrong in the very same way.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Once again, you're assigning absurd levels of assumed timestamping accuracy to the Lovelady/Shelley statements. But such pinpoint accuracy concerning those statements just cannot be obtained.

Upon reading Shelley's and Lovelady's Day 1 statements that you quoted in this previous post, there is NOTHING in those 11/22/63 statements by either witness that would justify this conclusion by you: "Shelley and Lovelady BOTH changed zero seconds to three minutes."

Here's what Shelley and Lovelady said on Day 1 (Nov. 22) (copied from your own post, Sandy)....

"After [the shooting] was over we went back into the building...." -- Billy Lovelady; 11/22/63

"...immediately after hearing the shots [Lovelady] and Shelley started running towards the presidential car, but it sped away...[They] then returned to the [TSBD]." -- 11/22/63 FBI Report

"I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into [Gloria Calvery]...I went back to the building and went inside and called my wife and told her what happened." -- William Shelley; 11/22/63

[End Quotes.]

None of those three statements eliminates the possibility that Lovelady and Shelley could have remained outside the building for three or more minutes before they entered the west entrance.

In fact, it's obvious to me from the last two statements quoted above that at least A LITTLE BIT OF TIME must have elapsed in order for Shelley and Lovelady to do the things they said they did in those statements (e.g., "Lovelady and Shelley started running towards the presidential car" and "I ran across the street to the corner of the park").

Do you think those men accomplished those things in "zero seconds" (which is what you claimed in your last post)?

Just because MORE details emerged in the later statements of both Lovelady and Shelley, you think that is proof that both men "lied" about those additional details. But that's just silly if you ask me. There were no sinister or sneaky alterations done to the later statements given by Lovelady and Shelley. There were merely more details revealed in those later statements. Simple as that.

Plus....

When we look at all of the 1964 statements by Lovelady and Shelley that you, yourself, quoted in an earlier post, we can easily see that those statements themselves are all over the place as far as how many minutes the two men took to get back inside the TSBD. In their '64 statements, we find ALL of these various estimates....

"...approximately five minutes..."

"...about three minutes..."

"...about ten minutes later..."

"...about three or four minutes after the shots..."

"...we...watched them searching for a while..."

[End Quotes.]

So why you think both men changed their statements to an exact figure of "three minutes" is a mystery to me, because they did no such thing. They were all over the map in their estimates, ranging from "about three minutes" all the way up to "about ten minutes".

And as far as the Darnell Film is concerned....

How in the world do you KNOW WITH 100% CERTAINTY that the woman we see near Billy Lovelady in this still photo is, in fact, Gloria Calvery? That frame from the film is not clear at all. Certainly not nearly clear enough to make a positive identification of an unknown individual. But you're convinced anyway that the lady near Lovelady couldn't be anyone BUT Gloria Calvery, is that right?


SANDY LARSEN SAID:

The reason you think their was no reason for them to lie is that you don't know the whole story. According to Victoria Adams' testimony, she came down the steps shortly after the shots. Oddly, she didn't hear anybody else using the steps. She should have heard Oswald going down to the 2nd floor.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

And if she had really been on the stairs as early as she claimed, she most certainly should have heard (or seen) Marrion Baker and Roy Truly coming up the stairs. But she didn't hear them and she didn't see them. Why not?


SANDY LARSEN SAID:

[Victoria Adams'] testimony continues... that when she reached the first floor she saw Shelley and Lovelady, who had supposedly just entered the west entrance SEVERAL MINUTES after the shooting.

[The] WC concluded from this that Victoria Adams did NOT come down the steps as quickly as she had thought. Because it had taken Shelley and Lovelady several minutes before they had entered the west door.

Therefore, Victoria Adams' testimony was discredited. She didn't hear Oswald come down the steps because she came down later that what she'd thought.

NOW, HERE'S THE RUB... a few years ago, researcher Barry Earnest [sic] interviewed Victoria Adams. She told him that she did NOT see Lovelady and Shelley upon her arrival at the first floor. The WC had changed her testimony to her saying that she DID see them!

I believe it was that revelation that got researchers looking closely at the testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady, and the Darnell film. And we now have a nearly complete picture of what really happened. Shelley and Lovelady lied about the 3-minute wait. (Though their initial statements were correct.) Baker lied about the second-floor encounter. (Though his initial statement was probably correct.) Victoria Adams' testimony was changed. (Her actual testimony was correct.) And I believe Adams had a coworker who corroborates her actual testimony... was it Sandra Styles? This person wasn't ask to testify before the WC.

So there we have it. ALL the initial statements fit together like a glove, and are supported by what we see in the Darnell film. In contrast, the later WC testimony is wildly inconsistent with the original statements and Darnell film.

The second floor encounter did not happen.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Sandy,

In my opinion, you don't have nearly enough evidence to back up this bold declaration that you made: "The second floor encounter did not happen".

As I explained earlier, the initial November 22nd statements provided by Shelley and Lovelady are not IN ANY WAY inconsistent or contradictory to their later 1964 statements. The witnesses simply added more details about the timing in their later statements. They weren't lying; they were adding more TRUTHFUL details. And you cannot possibly prove otherwise (even though you think you have already).

As for Victoria Adams claiming her Warren Commission testimony was "changed" or "altered" --- well, I've heard that allegation before too. A witness years later is interviewed and says she (or he) thinks their testimony was changed (Julia Mercer being another example of this). But the likely answer is, of course: The witness being interviewed years (or decades) later is very likely not remembering correctly what her verbatim Warren Commission testimony was. That, IMO, is a much more logical explanation rather than to jump aboard the "Testimony Was Altered For Sinister Reasons" bandwagon.

Also (re: Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles)....

You might be interested in what Sean Murphy said in 2011 about Miss Styles (and Murphy is a CTer, no less!):

"Sandra Styles mentioned to me that this author [Barry Ernest] had contacted her some years ago. She even knew the name of the book (which I hadn't heard of myself). Sandra claimed she told Ernest what she was now telling me: that she and Victoria Adams did *not* go to the rear stairs anything close to as quickly as Victoria had claimed. I find it a little worrying that there is no mention of Sandra's counter-version in any of the promotional material linked here. Why is the book not titled 'The GirlS On The Stairs'? It will be interesting to see how Ernest deals with Sandra's information." -- Sean Murphy; January 27, 2011

More about Adams and Styles and Dorothy Garner and Jack Dougherty and the "Stroud Document" and Barry Ernest can be found at my webpage here.
 

Edited December 24, 2017 by David Von Pein

[James DiEugenio]

Sandy,

 

That is some really good work and it shows just how intent the WC was to discredit Victoria Adams.

You've got DVP spinning like a top, so what does he do?  He goes to Bugliosi land.

If you read RH--no need to, and you will be a  worse person if you do--whenever VB admitted a problem in the evidence in text of the book, he usually did one of three things:

1.  Went of on a vituperative, over the top wild man rant against whoever produced the evidence. (What he did to Doug Horne took the prize.)

2. Said something like, "But this means they were part of the conspiracy." Which was nothing but a rhetorical device since VB did not like to differentiate between the actual crime and the cover up.

3. He would say something like DVP does above, "Well I think you rely too much on people keeping with a consistent story." 

DVP had no idea you were going to blast him away on this, so he waded in unprotected. (A common occurrence when I was arguing with him about VB.)  Now he is beating a  retreat into Bugliosi land.

The extremes the WC went to to neutralize Adams--in this case getting people to change their stories-- tells you just how fatal she was to the official fantasy.

 

Edited December 24, 2017 by James DiEugenio

[David Von Pein]

29 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

[...snipping DiEugenio's usual rant against Bugliosi & Von Pein...]

The extremes the WC went to to neutralize Adams--in this case getting people to change their stories--tells you just how fatal she was to the official fantasy.

Go tell that to your pal Sean Murphy....

"Sandra Styles...claimed she told [Barry] Ernest what she was now telling me: that she and Victoria Adams did *not* go
to the rear stairs anything close to as quickly as Victoria had claimed." -- Sean Murphy; January 27, 2011

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.assassination.jfk/W7McW4aaYMc/rmbO883N__wJ

Edited December 24, 2017 by David Von Pein

[James DiEugenio]

Another shameful cherry pick by Davey:

Remember, he is retired now so he has even more time to surf the web and come up with even more nonsense.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

8 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

... there is NOTHING in those 11/22/63 statements by either witness that would justify this conclusion by you: "Shelley and Lovelady BOTH changed zero seconds to three minutes."

Shelley and Lovelady didn't specify in their very first 11/22/63 statements how quickly they left the steps. But they did get more specific in their very next statements (Lovelady's being on the very same day, 11/22/63):

• Shelley:  "IMMEDIATELY following the shooting, Billy N. Lovelady and I accompanied some uniformed police officers to the railroad yard..."
• Lovelady (as recorded by the FBI):  "....IMMEDIATELY after hearing the shots {Lovelady] and Shelley started running towards the presidential ca...."

I think that most people would use the word "immediately" for something that happened within a few seconds.... and certainly nowhere near as long as three minutes.

But for skeptical you, I will prove that they did indeed leave the steps at pretty much zero seconds.

The Darnell frame showing Gloria Calvery talking to Lovelady at the TSBD steps has been timed to be about 25 to 30 seconds after the shooting. (Officer Baker is running across the street in that frame, BTW.) According to Shelley's first-day statement, after the shooting he ran across Elm Street extension to the corner concrete island, bumped into Gloria Calvery, then ran back and went inside to call his wife. Suppose he trotted across the street and arrived at the island in 7 seconds. He met Gloria there and surely exchange a few words, let's say about 5 seconds worth. He then trotted back and went inside. Gloria, not having an athletic build, took longer to cross back over. Lets say 12 seconds. By the time we see her in Darnell she has ascended some steps and is already conversing with Lovelady. Let's add 2 seconds for that. The amount of time elapsed from when Shelley left the steps to when we see Gloria talking to Lovelady is 7 + 5 + 12 + 2 = 26 seconds.

This means that Shelley left the steps between 0 and 4 seconds after the shooting.

It was not until their WC testimony that they inflated that to 3 minutes. And made other changes.