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The backyard photographs


Pat Speer
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Greetings, Mr. White... I began writing this before I noticed you had the last post - this wasn't supposed to be directly at you... but, you are probably one of the most knowledgable regarding this area...

It seems like it was Lyndal Shaneyfelt who stated to the WC that the original 2 snapshots found with the negative were most certainly printed at a commercial photo shop due to the white border and the way the picture was cropped from the negative. 

THAT IS ONE OF SHANEYFELT'S ACCURATE STATEMENTS. SOME ALLEGE THAT LHO

PROCESSED THE PHOTOS AT JAGGARS-CHILES-STOVALL, WHICH IS A NUTTY PREMISE.

I HAVE SEEN THE ORIGINALS. THEY APPEAR TO BE COMMERCIAL PRINTS.

Considering the compressed timeframe in which the pictures had to be taken and printed (one of the Marxist papers was a 3/24/64 issue (I believe), which at the very outside would have taken 7 days for delivery (WC's determination) - and G. de Mohrenshildlt's 133A was dated on the back, 4/5/64 - the WC ascertained that the photos had been taken on Sunday, 3/31/64...) , it should have been a fairly simple thing to find the shop near Oswald which printed the pictures.  (Did they have 1-hour photo, or did developing take longer?)

THERE WERE MANY DRUGSTORES AND PHOTOSHOPS WHICH OFFERED COMMERCIAL

PRINTING...WHICH USUALLY TOOK AT LEAST 24 HOURS THEN. MARCH 31 IS GIVEN AS

THE OFFICIAL DATE, BUT THIS CANNOT BE PROVED. FOR INSTANCE, LEAVES OF

A PEACH TREE ARE SEEN AT LEFT, BUT PEACH TREES ARE NOT NECESSARILY LEAFED OUT

THIS MUCH ON THAT DATE. THE PHOTOS ARE PROVABLY FAKED, WHICH MAKES ANY AND

ALL INFORMATION ABOUT THEM SUSPECT.

 

  In the testimony that I read, the subject was suddenly changed to the rifle-strap at the point that questions of this nature might have been logically asked.  Has anyone ever heard of any police follow-up on the local photoshops and what was determined?  Were the rest of the photographs from that role ever found? 

THE BACKYARD MC RIFLE HAD SLING RINGS ON THE BOTTOM. THE TSBD RIFLE

HAD SLING RINGS ON THE SIDE. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME RIFLE. IT IS PECULIAR

THAT NO INVESTIGATORS NOTICED THIS GLARING MISTAKE.

Whereabouts within the series did the backyard pictures fall?  Near the front or end of the role?  Could this be determined?  The pictures taken before or after may have been important -  how many pictures were taken between the backyard and the photoshop?  A great number?  If the other pictures from the role were never found - why not?

NO OTHER PHOTOS FROM THE "SAME ROLL" HAVE BEEN DISCOVERED. ODDLY, ONLY THE

NEGATIVE OF ONE OF THE PHOTOS WAS FOUND.

JACK

 

I'm tired of the excuse, "Shoddy policework..."  There's shoddy - then, there's completely unacceptable...

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  • 2 weeks later...
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I've been away on vacation, but I'd hoped when I returned someone would have answered the nagging question of whether or not Richard Stovall, who helped find the photographs, and Robert Stovall, Oswald's former employer, who ran a photo lab doing business with the Government, were related. Doesn't anyone know? Are their any Mormon researchers who can dig this up? What about Gary Mack and Dave Perry, who seem to think they've dug up as much as can be dug on this issue? Do they know? Will someone in touch with them please ask?

Edited by Pat Speer
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Pat,

I spent some time trying to dig this up, looking for any clues, and hoping they'd help me find the answer. No luck, nothing to confirm any relation between them. I even tried to see if their home addresses (at the time) were relatively close to each other (thinking if they were related they might have wanted to stay relatively close to each other..... far fetched?), I think the photo lab Stovall gave his business address for the WC, and therefore that angle didn't make much sense.

It's an interesting question, my guess is IF they are related, they probably don't want it to be known, then again Detective Stovall was sent to the Irving address with Guy Rose by chance, or perhaps they were used to working together. Then the same guys were sent back the next day. I'd say Fritz picked the two of them just because they were there and available. Just my opinion though.

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Pat,

I spent some time trying to dig this up, looking for any clues, and hoping they'd help me find the answer. No luck, nothing to confirm any relation between them. I even tried to see if their home addresses (at the time) were relatively close to each other (thinking if they were related they might have wanted to stay relatively close to each other..... far fetched?), I think the photo lab Stovall gave his business address for the WC, and therefore that angle didn't make much sense.

It's an interesting question, my guess is IF they are related, they probably don't want it to be known, then again Detective Stovall was sent to the Irving address with Guy Rose by chance, or perhaps they were used to working together. Then the same guys were sent back the next day. I'd say Fritz picked the two of them just because they were there and available. Just my opinion though.

Thanks, Antti, for your input. One of the reasons I haven't been able to let this drop is that, beyond his possible connection to a photo lab (which just happened o be Oswald's former employer), Richard Stovall was also one of J.D. Tippit's best friends, according to Tippit's widow in a 1977 HSCA interview.

According to the HSCA report entitled "Oswald-Tippit Associates," the HSCA requested data on all of Tippit's associates from the FBI, CIA, and Secret Service. This would indicate the HSCA had a file on Stovall. Was this released through the ARRB? Having been an analyst of available info more so than an acquirer of not readily-available info, I'm wondering if anyone has any ideas as to how to get this file.

It just smells a little fishy to me that one of the best friends of a murdered cop was sent out to find evidence on his friends' accused murderer, and helped find incriminating photographs whose negatives subsequently disappeared, and then ended up with copies of the photos, including one never given to the Warren Commission, in his personal possession. When one takes into account that the accused murderer worked at a photo lab run by someone with the same last name as this policeman, the smell gets even worse. When one considers that the Oswald-Tippit Associates" investigation makes no mention of contacting Stovall, despite the fact he was named as one of Tippit's best friends, and that Stovall turned over his backyard photos after a separate investigation not described in the HSCA report, and that here he was once again allowed to stay behind the scenes and not be interviewed, one has to accept the possibility that the HSCA knew there was something smelly regarding Stovall and the photos, and opted to let sleeping dogs lie. After all, the HSCA investigators were all led to believe there was gonna be an "Oswald did it all by his lonesome" reprise, and dredging up info that the DPD helped frame him was counter-productive.

Any ideas on where we can go from here? Does anyone know how to get access to the HSCA file on Stovall?

Any help appreciated.

Pat

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Many people make the MISTAKE of saying LHO worked at a PHOTO LAB.

Not so.

Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall was a large Dallas TYPESETTING company. Like

other typesetters of that era, they also had a PHOTOSTAT CAMERA.

Operating a photostat camera is a LOW-TECH job; that is why an

inexperienced person like LHO could be hired to do the work. Operating

a stat camera was similar to operating today's office copier, except with

chemical development and photo paper.

I know all this because in the 60s I was a JCS customer. In the 80s

I owned a type company and stat cameras. I still have one of the

cameras in storage, which originally cost $15,000. Anyone want to

buy a camera?

Jack :blink:

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IF a Minox camera actually was owned by LHO, it is evidence

of intelligence work, IMO, and was provided by the govt. In

those days a Minox cost about $400 or more. I had a steady

job and could not afford one, but a poor guy like LHO can?

John Armstrong checked the Minox issue thoroughly. Check

H&L.

Jack

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It certainly doesn't take a photo expert to see the problem between these two photographs. When the camera moved away from Oswald - his body shrunk a considerable amount just as the background did. Howevere, the head remained the same size between the grid. (see the two frame overlay animation below)

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Jack White's replies to my questions:

Reply from Jack White:

Dear Antti...excuse me for not seeing this forum email till just now. I prefer

that private emails be sent to jwjfk@flash.net, since I NEVER CHECK THE

FORUM FOR EMAILS.

I will try to respond to your questions:

1.) How many different back yard photos were there? (I mean to ask: how many were originally taken, referring to different poses and angles in determining the number of different photos, not how many copies were floating around in Nov. 1963)?

Since I believe the backyards are FABRICATED, there were no SNAPSHOTS

originally taken. Of the "known poses", there were 3. Marina and Marguerite told

of "another pose" where the rifle was held over the head, but nobody has ever

seen it. So I guess the number depends on whether you think the pix were

fake or genuine.

2.) Didn't Marina later destroy one she had in her shoe at the DPD on Nov. 22nd 1963?

That is the one above which I referred to. This is not necessarily a truthful

story.

3.) George DeMohrenschildt had one, which his wife sent to the FBI or some other officials, after his "suicide" in 1977, right?

Not necessarily. Though we have the excellent photo, the story of where it

came from is very suspicious. When George moved to Haiti (date unknown),

he put his belongings in storage. Years later, it is alleged that the photo was

found among some of his phonograph records which had been put in storage.

I do not believe the story.

4.) Now, regarding these photos, is it possible/likely/certain that one of them, or more than one "were taken" with a different camera?

With question number 4, I am refering to the DeMohrenschildt photo, which I recall was of a superior quality compared to the others.

Assuming the small "originals" were REAL SNAPSHOTS (I do not), then

the DeM picture is of such greater quality than the "originals", then one

must assume that they were products of different cameras THAN THE

IMPERIAL REFLEX. I believe that the real originals were composites which

were then copied on a copy stand.

....Looking at Marina's WC and HSCA statements, and more accurately her comment on the number of photos taken in the back yard, my goal is to show that more photos "were taken" than she claims. And to also show that more than one camera was used.

Therefore, indicating that her testimony regarding the photos is totally false, and that the photos were merely created by someone to provide incriminating evidence to assist in the framing of Lee Oswald.

In my opinion Marina did not take the photos, and anything she says regarding

them IS FALSE.

I am interested in any research you may post regarding this. In the future

please use my email address instead of posting to the forum email. Sorry

for the delay.

Thanks.

Jack

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I finally sat down and googled away to see if I could figure out if the Stovalls were actually related. And from what I was able to uncover (without paying a geneology website), I'm fairly convinced they were in fact brothers. Consider:

In his Warren commission testimony, Richard S. Stovall said he was born in Dallas in 1928. The Texas birth records for 1928 are online but they display no trace of a Richard Stovall. They do, however, reveal that a "Stovall, Robert Inf of" was born on 4-22 1928, and that his mother was the former Mattie Mcqueen. The father is listed as Robert Stovall, no middle initial. The "Inf of" presumably means "infant of" and indicates that the baby was not yet named when the certificate was created. (I hope it doesn't indicate the baby died.)

When one looks up Mattie Stovall, she shows up in the Texas Death Index as having died on 9-19-85. She also shows up as being buried at Kleberg Cemetery along with her husband, Robert L. Stovall, who died on 3-13-78. They are listed as having been married on 9-3-1919. The Robert L. Stovall who owned Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall was 43 when he testified on March 30, 1964, and so must have been born in either 1920 or 1921.

From this one can see that the Robert L Stovall who owned Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall, was quite likely Richard Stovall's older brother. First born males are most usually named after their father, and the time elapsed between Robert and Mattie's marriage and the presumed arrival of the baby Robert is right as one would expect for that era.

While I was momentarily confused by the existence of a Robert Lee Stovall, who died in 1954, and a Robert Lee Stovall, Jr, who died in 1993, I finally came across the birth of a Richard Mikal Stovall in 1944, and Susan Diane Stovall in 1947, whose father was listed as a Robert Littleton Stovall. When I looked up Robert Littleton Stovall a family tree came up. This tree revealed that the Robert Littleton Stovall who was the father of Richard (named after his uncle?) and Susan, was also the father of Deborah (1954) and that he was still alive as of the creation of the online tree. Furthermore, he was born in 1920!!!

If anyone with access to the Dallas papers can check the obits for Robert L's death in 1978 and Mattie's death in 1985, maybe it will list the names of their children and we can put this thing to rest.

Of course, even if they were brothers, it doesn't PROVE anything. It just reveals another weird coinky-dink that went largely ignored by the Warren Commission on down. Most importantly, it's not a judgment call. No disinformation expert can be brought in to argue that they weren't brothers once we demonstrate that they were.

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Pat,

It just smells a little fishy to me that one of the best friends of a murdered cop was sent out to find evidence on his friends' accused murderer, ...

Richard Stovall and Guy Rose were both Detectives in Captain Will Fritz's Homicide and Robbery Bureau. Guy Rose was one of the first people to speak to Oswald after his arrival at Police Headquarters. I imagine that Stovall was in the office too.

What is interesting to me is originally Will Fritz was going to go out to the Irving address with Richard Sims and Elmer Boyd. Fritz, Sims, Boyd, and Bill Decker all speak of a curious little encounter just after Fritz emerges from the TSBD. They have found the rifle and learned that Oswald lives in Irving. Fritz is all hot to trot. He's determined to go charging off to Irving taking Sims and Boyd with him. Just as he's about to head off, Decker sends word that he wants to talk to Fritz just a minute. What was the subject of that little conversation? None of them are asked by the WC, and none of them volunteer.

Whatever it was, all of a sudden Fritz changes his mind, heads into the office, keeps Sims and Boyd with him, and sends other police officers to check out Irving.

Steve Thomas

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Steve, I could be wrong, but I think they first found out about the Irving address from Roy Truly, then Oswald was caught at the TX theater. Fritz probably thought he ought to question Oswald personally and therefore send his detective's out to Irving with some county deputies, among others were Buddy Walthers, the deputy who apparently found a 45 slug or piece of skull on the grass in Dealy P. Walthers was James Eric (Bill) Decker's friend or protegé at the least. Deputy Roger Craig speculated for a long time that Decker and Walthers had a little more to say than they ever did. Naturally R. Craig committed suicide, after a long tedious stage of unemployment, misery and illness. How else.... suicide is the way to go if you happen to have on hand info on the JFK assassination.

Edited by Antti Hynonen
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Antti,

did you know that Tippit had a side job in the evening at the Texas Theatre?

Did you read Roger Craig's story?

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/WTKaP.html

Fascinating. Of course Gary will say he was jus hallucinating, like Ruby and all the others who had anything to say that refutes the Warren Commission.

Wim

Edited by Wim Dankbaar
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Wim Dankbaar Posted Today, 02:31 PM

  Antti,

did you know that Tippit had a side job in the evening at the Texas Theatre?

Did you read Roger Craig's story?

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/WTKaP.html

Fascinating. Of course Gary will say he was jus hallucinating, like Ruby and all the others who had anything to say that refutes the Warren Commission.

Wim

Wim I didn't know about Tippit's moonlighting job at the TX theater. I did read Craig's story, and after I read it, I was pretty sure that Decker wasn't running a totally clean investigation on his part. Decker seemed to carry a major grudge against Craig for his insisting on the Mauser issue, and that he saw Oswald enter a rambler stw. immediately following the DP mayhem. At the least Decker didn't wan't any other alleys of the investigation looked into.

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  • 6 months later...

I'd mentioned that others discussing the backyard photos might want to go back and read this and decided to go back and read it myself. Re-activated so that some of the recent arrivals won't have to go digging.

Edited by Pat Speer
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