How did Hosty expect to talk to Marina?

[Steve Thomas]

I don't have any answers, but I'm left with a lot of questions.

James Hosty:

Then at the end of the 6-month period it was then turned into a pending case and I went out and attempted to locate Mrs. Marina Oswald for the purpose of interviewing her.
I might add that it is the practice of the FBI to interview immigrants from behind the Iron Curtain on a selective basis, and she was so selected to be one of these persons to be interviewed.
Mr. STERN. When was this?
Mr. HOSTY. This was March 4, 1963,

 

On March 11^th: “...the fact that I knew I would be interviewing his wife in the near future, I requested that the case be reopened.”

 

Mr. HOSTY. The next day was the 1st of November. (He is there for 20-25 minutes, and spends his time talking to Ruth Paine).

Mr. HOSTY. No; towards the conclusion of the interview, Marina Oswald, who had apparently been napping, entered the living room.

She became quite alarmed,

So I didn't want to leave her in that state, so rather than just walking out and leaving her and not saying anything to her, I told Mrs. Paine to relate to her in the Russian language that I was not there for the purpose of harming her, harassing her, and that it wasn't the job of the FBI to harm people. It was our job to protect people. Mrs. Paine relayed this information. I assume she relayed it correctly. I don't speak Russian.

She seemed to calm down a little bit, and when I left she was smiling.

So she apparently was smiling, happy, and she shook hands with me as I left, I wanted to-leave her in a good frame of mind. I then left.

 

Mr. STERN. Did you have any thought of interviewing Marina Oswald at the time she came into Mrs. Paine's living room in connection with the investigation of Marina Oswald that you had started out thinking about in March?
Mr. HOSTY. Yes; I could have interviewed her here, but I thought at the time she was under a little emotional stress, this was maybe not a good time. Also, as I said before, we have a requirement to have two agents present when a subject is interviewed. I was alone.

 

Mr. HOSTY. Yes. Then on the 5th of November, I was on my way to the Fort Worth area, and stopped at Mrs. Paine's very briefly. I had another agent with me that day.
Mr. STERN. Who Was that?
Mr. HOSTY. Agent Gary S. Wilson. Agent Wilson was a brand new agent out of training school.

Mr. STERN. Was Marina Oswald present at all?
Mr. HOSTY. I didn't see her. She was probably in the house, but I didn't see her. I didn't go in the house. I just went in the front door.
Mr. STERN. How long do you think it was?
Mr. HOSTY. Not more than 1 or 2 minutes. Then I got in the car and left.

 

To the best of my knowledge (and I could be wrong). Other than that brief exchange on November 1st, James Hosty has never spoken to Marina Oswald directly.

Why?

 

I asked in another thread of there is any record or any transcript of any individual in any government agency interviewing, grilling, or interrogating Marina Oswald prior to the assassination. Maybe it's my poor research skills, but I haven't seen any.

Why?

 

The first non-family person who makes contact with the Oswalds upon their arrival in Fort Worth is the Head of Security for a company that is involved in the aerospace industry; someone who is a Major in the U.S. Air Force Reserves, who has a security clearance up to and including Top Secret, - who then passes Marina along to two other people involved with intelligence - George Bouhe (who "keeps files on everybody"), and George DeMohrenschildt.

Why?

 

Steve Thomas

[Steve Thomas]

11 hours ago, Pamela Brown said:

I keep my mind open to just about all possibilities with regard to Marina.  I really do think she may be the Rosetta stone of the assassination.  She is much smarter than most people realize and came from an  intelligence background. 

Pamela,

 

In my mind, in the early 1060's, the Russians had two main priorities in their intelligence gathering efforts: nuclear weapons and space flight.

While important in their own right; other things like the Berlin Wall, Vietnam, Cuba, etc were secondary.

I have begun to think that there was an attempt to get Marina to Fort Worth in an effort to get her close to the aerospace industry there for some reason; why, I don't know. If that's the case, I don't know if she was supposed to get information from somebody, or if she was supposed to give information to somebody.

The Oswald had arrived in Fort Worth in June, 1962. Eight months later,  on February 17, 1963 Marina writes letter to Soviet Embassy in Washington requesting their assistance in getting her back to Russia. Lee is to remain in the U.S.

(16H10)

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=34&tab=page

 

Steve Thomas

[Pamela Brown]

30 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Pamela,

 

In my mind, in the early 1060's, the Russians had two main priorities in their intelligence gathering efforts: nuclear weapons and space flight.

While important in their own right; other things like the Berlin Wall, Vietnam, Cuba, etc were secondary.

I have begun to think that there was an attempt to get Marina to Fort Worth in an effort to get her close to the aerospace industry there for some reason; why, I don't know. If that's the case, I don't know if she was supposed to get information from somebody, or if she was supposed to give information to somebody.

The Oswald had arrived in Fort Worth in June, 1962. Eight months later,  on February 17, 1963 Marina writes letter to Soviet Embassy in Washington requesting their assistance in getting her back to Russia. Lee is to remain in the U.S.

(16H10)

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=34&tab=page

 

Steve Thomas

That is an interesting insight.  You should definitely explore this.  

It is my thinking that WVB wanted to get his entire team of scientists back together for the moon shot and then to go to Mars, and that doing so raised the scepter of a Fourth Reich in some circles.  The fact that Joe Sr. was a devoted Hitler appeaser (causing him to lose his job at the Court of St. James) and WVB, of course, a Nazi transplant,  the implications of his working with JFK were becoming troublesome, and something had to be done.  The moon shot took priority in this scenario, and of course, JFK became expendable.

I do think KGB and CIA, or elements of it, both played a part in the assassination of JFK.  And Marina was at the center of it all.

Good luck with your research.  Let me know how I can help.

Edited January 31, 2018 by Pamela Brown

[David Josephs]

54 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Pamela,

 

In my mind, in the early 1060's, the Russians had two main priorities in their intelligence gathering efforts: nuclear weapons and space flight.

While important in their own right; other things like the Berlin Wall, Vietnam, Cuba, etc were secondary.

I have begun to think that there was an attempt to get Marina to Fort Worth in an effort to get her close to the aerospace industry there for some reason; why, I don't know. If that's the case, I don't know if she was supposed to get information from somebody, or if she was supposed to give information to somebody.

The Oswald had arrived in Fort Worth in June, 1962. Eight months later,  on February 17, 1963 Marina writes letter to Soviet Embassy in Washington requesting their assistance in getting her back to Russia. Lee is to remain in the U.S.

(16H10)

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=34&tab=page

 

Steve Thomas

While I agree with what you post I have to ask if you've considered the overriding purpose of Soviet CI - disinformation.

Of course they wanted to catch up with the technology... no doubt...  but like today, I firmly see the effort focused on getting the Western world to believe things about the Soviets when the opposite was true...

Steve - what are your thoughts about Golitsyn and his message?

Sun Tzu...

18. All warfare is based on deception.

19. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near.

20. Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him.

21. If he is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him.

22. If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant.

23. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them.

24. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected.

25. These military devices, leading to victory, must not be divulged beforehand.

[Joe Bauer]

My earlier post on Marina was not meant to be an immature and forum distracting joke.

Like so many others here I have occasionally considered Marina Oswald very seriously as potentially much more involved in the larger picture ( same goes for the Paines and George DeM ) in ways beyond just being a naive young wife and mother who innocently got caught up in all this through incredible and unfortunate fate. 

Marina couldn't help being looked at as a more intriguing character than not simply because of her childhood and young adult background in Russia which was provenly different enough in certain ways to arouse at least some valid suspicion regards her true character.

I admit I sometimes post personal observations and views on forum subjects that veer from the more serious research ones and apologize for this, as I know that too much of this isn't good for the forum in maintaining it's highly regarded integrity.

Still however, I do think that in regards to Marina Oswald research, it isn't totally frivolous ( or illogical ) to include stepping back and looking at her life with Lee Oswald here in America in a "real life-every day living" type way to at least some degree and how this may or may not figure into the much speculated and more sinister scenario that she was a sleeper agent with much more involvement in the whole affair than she has ever claimed.

In my practical life experience view, Marina's everyday life here in this country up until 11,22,1963 was overall extremely deprived, difficult and depressing, even dispiriting and exhausting.

Of course all young couples who have very little money or wages and no family help in this area have a "rough go" in the beginning acquiring decent housing and basic needs. Especially when they also have a baby to feed and care for. Sometimes it's simply too rough and the stress breaks them apart within the first few months or years.

Marina and Lee did not have such stress in Russia. That beginning stress free time together surely must have given them a feeling of security enough in their relationship to embark on their journey to America with more optimistic hope than not, as naive as that feeling was.

Marina grew up in a world hugely less materially affluent than what most Americans were used to.

Coming here and her first views of everything so different must have been at least somewhat exciting to her.

I could see her thinking, after arriving in America and getting her first separate housing with Lee, that just having a whole one bedroom apartment to herself, Lee and their baby was something special in itself, even if these apartments may have been somewhat rundown and in less than the better parts of town.

I could also picture her optimistic wonder at first seeing American chain grocery stores with more food available with incredible variety in beautiful displays than she had ever seen in Russia. I read once that Lee had written or mentioned Marina eating new foods too much and getting sick.

But, we all know the details of how life for Marina with Lee steadily changed in becoming more stressed in so many ways. So stressed that she and her baby's most basic needs were more and more unmet and had to be provided for by outsiders as Lee simply wasn't up to the task.

And Marina's personal relationship with Lee had also clearly deteriorated to serious talk of separation beyond that already present with her moving in with other families. If the JFK assassination hadn't happened, what would have happened to Marina and Lee and their relationship?

In my mind, the more I view in a real life practical way the list of all the heavy emotional, physical and financial/material stresses ( the list is long ) that Marina and her baby were experiencing with and then apart from Lee for many, many months up until 11,22,1963, I find it harder and harder not to believe that if Marina was involved in some risky covert activities beyond all this extreme daily stress that at some point her motherly love and concern for her baby's well being "alone" would drive her to confront her handlers with something like the desperate plea I made up in my earlier post.

It seems to me that Marina was far too occupied with the daily struggle of dealing and coping with and finding an escape from the more and more basic needs stressed life she and their child were experiencing with Lee than to be carrying out secret covert instructions from others.

I know the spy life has often been revealed as much less glamorous and much more mundane than the suave and first class travel Bond image, but Marina's life with Lee took on a level of unmet basic needs poverty and humiliating dependence on others so pronounced, that one has to consider why any secret agency would put a mother-with-child agent through this.

This was depression era stuff. 

With Marina's extremely attractive beauty, one would think a major spy organization would instead use her more in an Ellen Rometsch honey trap type role versus a vagabond poverty struggling one.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 1, 2018 by Joe Bauer

[Steve Thomas]

10 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

While I agree with what you post I have to ask if you've considered the overriding purpose of Soviet CI - disinformation.

Of course they wanted to catch up with the technology... no doubt...  but like today, I firmly see the effort focused on getting the Western world to believe things about the Soviets when the opposite was true...

Steve - what are your thoughts about Golitsyn and his message?

Sun Tzu...

 

David,

You wrote, "but like today, I firmly see the effort focused on getting the Western world to believe things about the Soviets when the opposite was true..."

 

Could you expand on that a little bit? What do you think their counter-intelligence efforts were in the early 1960's?

While I know that Russian, Yuri Gagarin was the first man to orbit the earth, I still think the Russians were way behind the U.S. in space technology and nuclear weapons technology.

 

I'm sorry. I've never really delved into Golytsin. I'm not trying to be evasive. It's just not something I've spent a lot of time on.

Sun Tzu and Golytsin and the aerospace industry at the same time? Are you trying to kill me?

 

*smile*

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

 

[Steve Thomas]

58 minutes ago, Pamela Brown said:

I do think KGB and CIA, or elements of it, both played a part in the assassination of JFK.  And Marina was at the center of it all.

 

Pamela,

 

I had never really considered that in years past, but lately I've begun to wonder.

 

Steve Thomas

[David Josephs]

1 minute ago, Steve Thomas said:

David,

You wrote, "but like today, I firmly see the effort focused on getting the Western world to believe things about the Soviets when the opposite was true..."

 

Could you expand on that a little bit? What do you think their counter-intelligence efforts were in the early 1960's?

While I know that Russian, Yuri Gagarin was the first man to orbit the earth, I still think the Russians were way behind the U.S. in space technology and nuclear weapons technology.

 

I'm sorry. I've never really delved into Golytsin. I'm not trying to be evasive. It's just not something I've spent a lot of time on.

Sun Tzu and Golytsin and the aerospace industry at the same time? Are you trying to kill me?

 

*smile*

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

 

LOL

As you mention, despite getting into space first, you make an excuse for them still needing our TECH...

Think of it this way...   the Russians were no were near as powerful as the USA... but they gave the West the impression they were.  The space race was always about intercontinental missiles... the US couldn't care about the moon (other than getting there first)... they needed to deliver nukes without pilots... so the space race.

In most aspects I see the Soviets sowing discord by having us spend so much time chasing false stories.  Golitsyn claims that Perestroika was designed to lull the West to sleep about the giant to the east....  that they were for peace, the KBG was in tatters and they were nothing to concerns ourselves over...

Same thing today...  the result of Russian election and social media interference is the greatest polarity we've seen in quite a while...  while we're fighting and policing ourselves for spies in our midst, we are missing some of the bigger picture concerns...

The USA knows nothing of Sun Tzu.  We project power regardless, so our enemies prepare.  We tell them where we are, we tell them what we're doing.

The double edge sword of an open society... easier to infiltrate, easier to hide within....

Besides... without the technical know-how, how would they know if what they stole was not CI from us?

[Steve Thomas]

32 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

It seems to me that Marina was far too occupied with the daily struggle to deal and cope with and finding an escape from the more and more basic needs stressed life she and their child were experiencing with Lee than to be carrying out secret covert instructions from others.

Joe,

 

I do not want to make light of your thoughts. It's obvious that you have spent a lot of time thinking about this, and I respect that.

 

I do not know if Marina was a sleeper agent or not. I haven't come to a conclusion.

My only thoughts were:

If Gary Taylor can be believed, at 23 years of age, Marina was making four times what Lee was making in the Soviet Union. Who do you think was the breadwinner here?

Marina marries Oswald six weeks after meeting him. (She did the same with Kenneth Porter. She married him one month after meeting him).

She's got an uncle who's a colonel in the GRU. She's plucked from obscurity and flown halfway around the world. Eight months later she's writing the Soviet Union trying to get back. She says it's because Lee was forcing her to, but who knows?

As for living in poverty here in the U.S., I think it was DeMohrenschildt who told the WC that she must have had over one hundred dresses.

When Gary Taylor moved them to Elsbeth St., he had to rent a trailer to carry their belongings. When Demohrenschildt moved her out of Elsbeth on a temporary separation from Lee, his car was so full, it was dragging on the ground; but when they moved from Elsbeth to Neely, they moved their belongings in a baby stroller. What happened to all their furniture?

 

Her sojourn in the U.S. could be analagous to a lower-level mob guy who's asked to sit it out for a couple of years in the pen and not rat the boss out, with the promise that the boss will make it up to him after he does his stretch.

*shrug* I don't know.

 

Steve Thomas

 

[Steve Thomas]

53 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

The space race was always about intercontinental missiles... the US couldn't care about the moon (other than getting there first)... they needed to deliver nukes without pilots... so the space race.

David,

 

Intercontinental missiles yes, but what about a base on the moon?

Wasn't the whole effort to "put a man on the moon"? Men do things, like mining, and man lookout posts, and operate forward bases and stuff.

(and teach Hosty Russian so he could interview Marina)

*smile*

 

PS: You wrote, " Besides... without the technical know-how, how would they know if what they stole was not CI from us?"

I once read that Oswald was deliberately sent to Russia to leak the information about the U-2 because by then, the U-2 was old hat.

 

Steve Thomas

[David Josephs]

You mean the one on the far side of the moon built by the Russians with help from aliens?

Personally, I think more is accomplished by spreading disinformation than by trying to steal info... seems the info was more freely given by those wanting to balance the power

DJ

[Paul Trejo]

3 hours ago, Pamela Brown said:

I do think KGB and CIA, or elements of it, both played a part in the assassination of JFK.  And Marina was at the center of it all. 

Pamela,

What possible material evidence do you have to show us, to argue that "Marina was at the center of it all."   That's an accusation of murder, actually.    So, based on WHAT?

Do you really believe the US Government was so naïve in 1963?    Do you really believe that all the WC testimony that Marina gave was never vetted?  

Let's see some PAPERWORK, please, for these harsh charges.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

2 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

...With Marina's extremely attractive beauty, one would think a major spy organization would use her more in an Ellen Rometsch type role versus a vagabond poverty struggling one.

Joe,

This is spot-on.   Also, if Marina Oswald was only play-acting at being dirt-poor, then yes, a KGB suspicion is raised.  But this was not play-acting.  She was suffering like a dog under the care of this immature brat named Lee Harvey Oswald.

In September of 1963, Marina Oswald was eight months pregnant, and Lee had no job, no money and no health insurance.   Marina had not yet seen a doctor because Lee Harvey Oswald refused to pay for one -- since he never had to pay for one in the USSR.   So, Marina just had to "suck it up."

That is why -- and that is the only reason why -- Marina Oswald went begging to Ruth Paine for help.   It was Marina Oswald who ASKED the wealthy Ruth Paine for relief.  

Ruth Paine's Quaker Charity response was to invite Marina to live at her home in Irving for a few months, to get registered at Parkland Hospital, to get free rides to Parkland Hospital, to be cared for during these intense weeks of labor and post-partum childcare, until approximately January, 1964, when Ruth's mother was scheduled to visit Irving to be with her grandchildren.

Marina Oswald agreed to these terms.   Lee was not invited.   He had to find work, find a place to live, find an apartment for his growing family, and that was HIS problem, not Ruth's.   Ruth Paine's entire purpose was to help Marina Oswald have her baby.   NOTHING MORE.

Anybody who accused Ruth Paine of sexual immorality, or FBI, or CIA, or KGB intrigue -- is a fiction writer living in an imaginary world.

Marina Oswald was DIRT POOR.    Admit it.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Gene Kelly]

Interesting remarks from James Hosty's testimony to the Warren Commission:

Mr. STERN. When Mrs. Paine told you that Lee Harvey Oswald was working at the School Book Depository, did that mean anything to you? Did you remember the building?
Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; I knew of the building in the outskirts of the downtown area. That is about all. I looked up the address, and I recognized the address, but it meant nothing to me.
Mr. STERN. Is there anything else at all that you can recall being said on November 1?
Mr. HOSTY. As I said earlier, I think I should bring this in, that Mrs. Paine was a little bit reluctant to give me his place of employment at first. She said that Lee Oswald had alleged that the FBI had had him fired from every job he ever had. I told her this was not true, that I had never had anyone fired from any job nor did I know of any other FBI agents that had ever done this.
I reassured her that I wanted to know his place of employment for the Purpose of determining whether or not he was employed in a sensitive industry, and when I found out that he was working in a warehouse as a laborer, I realized this was not a sensitive industry.

[Gene Kelly]

Interview of Former Special Agent James P. Hosty (1952 – 1979)  by Jack O’Flaherty, Society of Former Special Agents of the FBI, on March 8, 2006: 

We had an investigation on her under the SOBIR Program, that’s the Soviet Bloc Immigrants and Repatriates Program. They had information, good information from informants, defectors that the Soviets were going to infiltrate the United States with immigrants and repatriates to build up an illegal network of espionage in the event that the diplomatic immunity was taken away from the Embassy people and they could no longer operate.  Then they would have a network in this country. There were certain criteria; they had to be within a certain age limit, had to have a certain educational limit and come from Soviet Bloc countries. 
 
Marina fit the category perfectly.  She was the only the third known Soviet spouse allowed to leave the Soviet Union with their non-Soviet spouse and go to the west.  It turns out, we didn’t have it at the time, but as the investigation continued it turned out that Marina’s uncle, the man who raised her, she was an orphan, was raised by her uncle and aunt, her mother’s brother was a MVD Colonel, a full colonel in the MVD in the Gulag section of the prison section.  Also, she was a registered pharmacist or the equivalent, the Russian equivalent of a pharmacist so she was not an ignorant little peasant girl as the press tried to pretend she was.  You know, the sweet little girl.  She was one tough cookie.  I interviewed her after the assassination and believe me she isn’t what people think she was. 
 
I’m not saying that she was involved.  I don’t think she was involved in the assassination of Kennedy but we were looking at her for other reasons.