DVP - why didn't one of the many US Postal informants in Dallas report the rifle delivery?

[Steve Thomas]

23 hours ago, David Josephs said:

It was a 5 foot carton from Kleins addressed to the wrong person's PO Box.   They knew he was getting the WORKER just not a rifle from Kleins which required a variety of steps to pick

David,

 

Does anybody know if Kleins shipped their rifles disassembled or not? If it was broken down, it might not have been 5' long, but surely the package would have been clearly marked, wouldn't it?

 

Steve Thomas

[Richard Price]

Steve, I do not know about 1963 era postal policies, but I have worked for the USPS for the past 30 years and can tell you about procedures during that over that period of time.  There are whole new set of guidelines established by the Gun Control Act of 1968, so it may or may not be applicable.  Guns, when shipped through the mail may not contain any markings to show that they are guns.  This of course excludes the return address/address which might very well indicate a gun shop/gunsmith/gun retailer or wholesaler.

[Guest]

In regard to the rifle, Holmes testified that if a package arrived addressed to a post office box, a card was placed in the box regardless of whether the package was addressed to an individual who had been listed on the application as authorized to receive mail in the box.  The card did not have a box number or name on it - it was blank.  The person who opened the box would take the card to the location where the packages were kept, which was "all the way around the corner" and separate from the area where the boxes were located.  The person would say "I had this notice in my box."  The clerk would ask what box number, find the package and hand it over, typically without requesting identification.  The Klein's package, of course, was addressed to A. Hidell, who had not been listed on the box application, and moreover Oswald would have had Hidell identification if it had been requested.  Waldman of Klein's testified that the rifle would have been shipped in a 60" corrugated cardboard box made for Klein's by Rudd Container Corporation, a sample of which was provided to the FBI.  Klein's handled a full line of sporting goods, so I don't know how obvious it would have been that the box contained a rifle.

In these circumstances, it is difficult for me to see as suspicious the fact that some informant in the Dallas post office didn't immediately scream "Lee Harvey Oswald just received a rifle!"  If you were examining the record with a microscope with a specific goal of "finding things to be suspicious about," then perhaps.  If you assume Holmes was an integral part of a massive conspiracy and lying through his teeth to further the conspiracy, then of course the question originally posed by David answers itself.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now supposing that Oswald had not in fact authorized A. J. Hidell to receive mail here in the Dallas box and that a package came addressed to the name of Hidell, which, in fact, one did at Post Office Box 2915, what procedure would be followed when that package came in?
Mr. HOLMES. They would put the notice in the box.
Mr. LIEBELER. Regardless of whose name was associated with the box?
Mr. HOLMES. That is the general practice. The theory being, I have a box. I have a brother come to visit me. My brother would have my same name---well, a cousin. You can get mail in there. They are not too strict. You don't have to file that third portion to get service for other people there. I imagine they might have questioned him a little bit when they handed it out to him, but I don't know. It depends on how good he is at answering questions, and everything would be all right.
Mr. LIEBELER. So that the package would have come in addressed to Hidell at Post Office Box 2915, and a notice would have been put in the post office box without regard to who was authorized to receive mail from it?
Mr. HOLMES. Actually, the window where you get the box is all the way around the corner and a different place from the box, and the people that box the mail, and in theory---I am surmising now, because nobody knows. I have questioned everybody, and they have no recollection. The man would take this card out. There is nothing on this card. There is no name on it, not even a box number on it. He comes around and says, "I got this out of my box." And he says, "What box?" "Box number so and so." They look in a bin where they have this by box numbers, and whatever the name on it, whatever they gave him, he just hands him the package, and that is all there is to it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Ordinarily, they won't even request any identification because they would assume if he got the notice out of the box, he was entitled to it?
Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not the rifle would have been broken down in shipment or whether or not it would have been shipped fully assembled?
Mr. WALDMAN. It was customary for us to ship all of these rifles and scopes fully assembled, and I would have no reason to believe that this particular one would have been shipped otherwise.
Mr. BELIN. And do you know in what kind of a container it would have been shipped?
Mr. WALDMAN. It was customary for us to ship these rifles with scopes attached in a corrugated cardboard carton made for us by the Rudd Container Corporation of Chicago.
Mr. BELIN. About how long would that carton be in size, if you know?
Mr. WALDMAN. Approximately 60 inches.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever furnish any samples of this carton or any wrapping paper or tape to the FBI?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; we did furnish a sample of the carton together with the type of sealing tape that was generally used and such craft paper that may have been used for inner cushioning packing.

 

 

[Jeff Carter]

"In these circumstances, it is difficult for me to see as suspicious the fact that some informant in the Dallas post office didn't immediately scream "Lee Harvey Oswald just received a rifle!" 

The issue isn't exactly that. What the record indicates is that the US Post Office had a relationship with the FBI, and post office informants were a common source of information for the bureau's agents. 

That Oswald subscribed to left/communist literature and Soviet magazines would have/should have created attention to his P.O. Box 2915 address, especially in conservative Dallas. That this post office box was also referred to in a communication from Marina Oswald to the Soviet Embassy should also have triggered attention (Hoover testified that everything mailed to that Embassy was opened and read ahead of delivery).

It seems either 1) there was no active interest in a Soviet/communist linked PO Box   2) a postal employee screwed up and missed the rifle delivery and the new name (Hidell) associated with a Soviet connected PO Box   3) activity with PO Box 2915 was routinely watched but this information was not shared with the Warren Commission, and Hidell/rifle either did not trigger investigation or such investigation was buried   4) a rifle was never actually delivered to PO 2915

In my opinion, #1 & 2 are highly unlikely.

[Guest]

43 minutes ago, Jeff Carter said:

It seems either 1) there was no active interest in a Soviet/communist linked PO Box   2) a postal employee screwed up and missed the rifle delivery and the new name (Hidell) associated with a Soviet connected PO Box   3) activity with PO Box 2915 was routinely watched but this information was not shared with the Warren Commission, and Hidell/rifle either did not trigger investigation or such investigation was buried   4) a rifle was never actually delivered to PO 2915

In my opinion, #1 & 2 are highly unlikely.

But as always, this is imposing 54 years of post-assassination hindsight on what conspiracy theorists think "should have occurred" in a perfect world.  To the extent LHO was being monitored at the time the rifle was delivered, it would have been because he had been a defector to the USSR and had now returned with a Russian wife.  It would not have been because anyone suspected he was violent or a potential assassin.  So a Klein's Sporting Goods box addressed to "A. Hidell" arrives in a very busy post office, some clerk follows the procedure described by Holmes and puts a card in box 2915, and another clerk hands the box to "Hidell."  Your #'s 1 and 2 strike me as "highly likely."  In regard to #1, even if there were active interest, there would not necessarily have been such interest in a box from Klein's Sporting Goods addressed to A. Hidell.  In regard to #2, I would amend "screwed up" to "followed the standard procedure described by Holmes."  Again, with 54 years of post-assassination hindsight, it is easy to think everything associated with LHO should have set off alarms and that there must be a sinister explanation if a 60" box from Klein's Sporting Goods did not, but in reality at the time the rifle was delivered LHO was viewed as just a 23-year-old goofball who had quixotically defected to the USSR and come crawling back.  The level of official interest that you are imputing to the Post Office and FBI with the benefit of post-assassination hindsight simply didn't exist.

Edited January 21, 2018 by Guest

[Jeff Carter]

20 minutes ago, Lance Payette said:

But as always, this is imposing 54 years of post-assassination hindsight on what conspiracy theorists think "should have occurred" in a perfect world.  To the extent LHO was being monitored at the time the rifle was delivered, it would have been because he had been a defector to the USSR and had now returned with a Russian wife.  It would not have been because anyone suspected he was violent or a potential assassin.  So a Klein's Sporting Goods box addressed to "A. Hidell" arrives in a very busy post office, some clerk follows the procedure described by Holmes and puts a card in box 2915, and another clerk hands the box to "Hidell."  Your #'s 1 and 2 strike me as "highly likely."  In regard to #1, even if there were active interest, there would not necessarily have been such interest in a box from Klein's Sporting Goods addressed to A. Hidell.  In regard to #2, I would amend "screwed up" to "followed the standard procedure described by Holmes."  Again, with 54 years of post-assassination hindsight, it is easy to think everything associated with LHO should have set off alarms and that there must be a sinister explanation if a 60" box from Klein's Sporting Goods did not, but in reality at the time the rifle was delivered LHO was viewed as just a 23-year-old goofball who had quixotically defected to the USSR and come crawling back.  The level of official interest that you are imputing to the Post Office and FBI with the benefit of post-assassination hindsight simply didn't exist.

It is not hindsight. The record from 1962-63 shows the FBI had extensive sources within the Post Office. Surveillance on Oswald and Marina (PO Box 2915) would occur because of the Soviet/ left wing activity associated with the mailbox, not because of suspicion of a "violent or a potential assassin." The future assassination does not come into play. 

Chapters 14-16 of Newman's "Oswald and the CIA" touches on a number of the issues associated with surveillance of Oswald and the US Postal service:

"The early 1960s were tense years in the US-Soviet Cold War, and the Soviet Embassy in Washington was enemy territory as far as the FBI and CIA were concerned. That embassy would have been among the highest priority targets of the American intelligence community, and the embassy's mail would have been carefully watched - especially mail to and from Soviet citizens in America."

Again: December 31, 1962 Marina writes to the Soviet Embassy and includes new mailing address PO Box 2915, Dallas.

[David Von Pein]

8 hours ago, Lawrence Schnapf said:

...but to expect both [gun] shipments to not draw attention really pushes the limits of credulity. 

But it's a red herring, Lawrence. Whether or not Oswald's gun packages drew the attention of anyone at the Dallas Post Office is a moot point.

Why?

Because all reasonable people who aren't prone to shouting "It's all fake!" every time they turn around realize that Lee Oswald did order the rifle and the revolver via mail order in early 1963, and Oswald did receive those weapons in the mail. In addition to the large amount of paperwork that exists to link Oswald to those two guns, there's also the fact, of course, that Oswald was photographed with both weapons in late March of '63 (just days after Klein's and Seaport shipped the guns to LHO).

So, do you think the backyard photos are all fakes too---despite the clean bill of health the HSCA gave them, and despite the fact that Marina Oswald has never ever backtracked on her testimony that she, herself, took pictures of her husband while he was holding each of those weapons in the Neely Street backyard? (Or do you think the guns he posed with were NOT the C2766 Carcano or the V510210 Smith & Wesson?)

But just how much alleged fakery is too much alleged fakery for a reasonable person to stomach in this case? Or is there any limit at all?

Edited January 21, 2018 by David Von Pein

[Ron Bulman]

Oswald Didn't Order A Rifle.  That's why no one in the Post Office said he picked it up over the counter with the notice in his post office box, Because the Rifle Wouldn't Fit In The Box.  It didn't happen.  It's been argued to death previously here and elsewhere.  The Warren Omission story of it has fallen apart.  David is putting further nails in the coffin of this unproven lone nut Theory. 

[James DiEugenio]

OMG, here we go again, : its a moot point that no one noticed  because all reasonable people buy the paperwork..

 

Larry, if you do not know, DVP was a zealot for RH even before it came out and the terms he uses above are right out of that book.  

The fact is, that the vast majority of the public does not know all of the problems with the transaction, which David Josephs has just listed another one.  

The MSM and Bugliosi have always used this rifle transaction to pin the crime on Oswald, even though Bugliosi knew there were serious problems with it.  But like a prosecutor bent on conviction, in his book he ignored them. Knowing that most reviewers would not know about them.  

David brings up a very valid point about the FBI and the post office informants.  And let us not forget, even after the assassination no one recalled the very large box being delivered to the post office or being given to Oswald.

Edited January 21, 2018 by James DiEugenio

[David Von Pein]

1 hour ago, Ron Bulman said:

Oswald Didn't Order A Rifle.  That's why no one in the Post Office said he picked it up over the counter with the notice in his post office box, Because the Rifle Wouldn't Fit In The Box.  It didn't happen.  It's been argued to death previously here and elsewhere.  The Warren Omission story of it has fallen apart.  David is putting further nails in the coffin of this unproven lone nut Theory. 

And you do realize, do you not, the large number of things that would need to be FAKE---and the number of LIARS that would have been required---in order for these words to be true --- Oswald Didn't Order A Rifle?

But because the postal workers didn't specifically remember the WHOLLY MUNDANE AND ORDINARY act of handing a box to a post office box owner (an event that occurred EIGHT MONTHS prior to the postal workers being asked about it), you think that proves "Oswald Didn't Order A Rifle"???

Incredible!

I would have been shocked if anyone had specifically remembered Oswald picking up the rifle package when the clerks were asked about it EIGHT MONTHS later. Why on Earth would any postal worker recall such a routine event amid the thousands of other packages that those postal workers had handed out over the counter in the course of their daily duties? Do you think YOU could remember such a routine event eight months later?

      

"Despite over forty years of allegations by Mark Lane and other conspiracy theorists, if there is one thing even a child should walk away from this case knowing for sure, it's that only one rifle was found in the Texas School Book Depository and that rifle, a Mannlicher-Carcano, serial number C2766, was bought and paid for by Lee Harvey Oswald." -- Vincent T. Bugliosi; Page 794 of "Reclaiming History" (2007)

 

Edited January 21, 2018 by David Von Pein

[Ron Bulman]

8 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

And you do realize, do you not, the large number of things that would need to be FAKE---and the number of LIARS that would have been required---in order for these words to be true --- Oswald Didn't Order A Rifle?

But because the postal workers didn't specifically remember the WHOLLY MUNDANE AND ORDINARY act of handing a box to a post office box owner (an event that occurred EIGHT MONTHS prior to the postal workers being asked about it), you think that proves "Oswald Didn't Order A Rifle"???

Incredible!

      

Bright graphics.

[Steve Thomas]

6 hours ago, Richard Price said:

Steve, I do not know about 1963 era postal policies, but I have worked for the USPS for the past 30 years and can tell you about procedures during that over that period of time.  There are whole new set of guidelines established by the Gun Control Act of 1968, so it may or may not be applicable.  Guns, when shipped through the mail may not contain any markings to show that they are guns.  This of course excludes the return address/address which might very well indicate a gun shop/gunsmith/gun retailer or wholesaler.

Richard,

 

Thank you for your response. I figured the package would have advertising all over it, but I guess not.

 

Steve Thomas

[David Josephs]

17 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

David,

 

Does anybody know if Kleins shipped their rifles disassembled or not? If it was broken down, it might not have been 5' long, but surely the package would have been clearly marked, wouldn't it?

 

Steve Thomas

 

Mr. WALDMAN. Our catalog No. C20-T750, which was the number indicated on the coupon prepared by A. Hidell, designates a rifle with scope attached. And we would have so shipped it unless the customer specifically specified that he did not wish to have it attached. There is nothing in our records to indicate that there was any request made by the customer, and therefore we would have every reason to believe that it was shipped as a rifle with scope-mounted. 
Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not the rifle would have been broken down in shipment or whether or not it would have been shipped fully assembled? 

Mr. WALDMAN. It was customary for us to ship these rifles with scopes attached in a corrugated cardboard carton made for us by the Rudd Container Corporation of Chicago. 
Mr. BELIN. About how long would that carton be in size, if you know? 
Mr. WALDMAN. Approximately 60 inches. 
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever furnish any samples of this carton or any wrapping paper or tape to the FBI? 
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; we did furnish a sample of the carton together with the type of sealing tape that was generally used and such craft paper that may have been used for inner cushioning packing.

 

Edited January 21, 2018 by David Josephs

[David Josephs]

 

On ‎1‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 8:28 PM, Ron Bulman said:

Oswald Didn't Order A Rifle.  That's why no one in the Post Office said he picked it up over the counter with the notice in his post office box, Because the Rifle Wouldn't Fit In The Box.  It didn't happen.  It's been argued to death previously here and elsewhere.  The Warren Omission story of it has fallen apart.  David is putting further nails in the coffin of this unproven lone nut Theory. 

The evidence shows the postal money order being found 4 different times in 3 different places....

Holmes' story is pure fantasy...   The found the stub in the money order book... But no stub or book is offered....

Before tearing it should have looked like this.... The stub at the right, in the book of other money orders is proof... Holmes claims are not authentic

 

Edited March 26, 2018 by David Josephs

[Michael Walton]

1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

Before tearing it should have looked like this.... The stub at the right, in the book of other money orders is proof... Holmes claims are not authentic

Questions:

I read Oswald was a pack rat and kept everything. Was the purchaser's stub (I'm assuming that would have been given to him) ever found in his possessions (Paine garage, etc)?

Also because of his alleged pack rat status, was the cardboard box that the rifle was shipped in ever found in his possessions?