Mrs. Stanton, Mrs. Sanders, where are you?

[Andrej Stancak]

Hello Gary and Tommy:

thanks for your expert suggestions. I have tried Google Maps to measure the distance from the western corner of the Depository doorway to the nearest of four trees mentioned in Gary's message. This distance turned to be 14.8 meters or 49 feet. However, Google Maps also allow measuring the distance from the doorway via a selected route the ladies may have taken. If I guessed the ladies' locations in Z-film correctly, their total distance from the doorway was only 42.5 meters or 140 feet. This is not a long distance at all.  I guess 20 seconds is more than enough for an untrained person to walk fast over a 43-meter distance.

 

 

 

[Thomas Graves]

55 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Hello Gary and Tommy:

thanks for your expert suggestions. I have tried Google Maps to measure the distance from the western corner of the Depository doorway to the nearest of four trees mentioned in Gary's message. This distance turned to be 14.8 meters or 49 feet. However, Google Maps also allow measuring the distance from the doorway via a selected route the ladies may have taken. If I guessed the ladies' locations in Z-film correctly, their total distance from the doorway was only 42.5 meters or 140 feet. This is not a long distance at all.  I guess 20 seconds is more than enough for an untrained person to walk fast over a 43-meter distance.

 

 

 

Andrej,

That looks about right.

Excellent work.  Thanks.

--  Tommy 

 

 

[Andrej Stancak]

19 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Check my post at the bottom of page 1.

 

With regards your drawing.

There is no Lovelady as he is gone

No Shelley as he is gone

No Calvery as there is no proof to ID her.

No Hicks as there is no proof to ID her.

No McCully  as there is no proof to ID her.

No Williams as he is gone

No Davis as there is no proof to ID her.

Stanton may be the short heavy set lady you found in Darnell

Sanders is nowhere to be seen.

 

Bart:

I may not be able to change your mind on your string of No's . However, I will do all I can to convince you that the light object next to Mr. Lovelady's face was actually a partial face of a person standing behind him. Therefore, I will reconstruct Altgens6 scene as a priority. It will take me about a week or two. Eventually, you will be the judge. I do not know the outcome of that analysis yet, however, I am sure that in the process we will learn a lot about what was going on in the doorway during the critical period. And that is another purpose of this threat.

 

[Guest]

The 5 women who got on the East side of the steps.

Close inspection of the frames show that some are making their way on the steps and position themselves on the bottom East side of the steps.

Baker could not have gone up that side of the steps. 

Now then puzzle time there boys and girls.

The women who stated they were standing on the steps were
Ruth Dean (all in black and IDed)
Maddie Reese (wearing a rain coat IDed as well).
Judy McCully 
Avery Davis
Pauline Sanders
Sarah Stanton

Two of these stated they stood on the top platform (Sanders and Stanton).
So that leaves two who ought to be part of that group of five.
That leaves three (wo)men unidentified at the end of the Darnell shot.

 

Do indulge me with a nice fantasy story....go on.

 

Edited February 17, 2018 by Bart Kamp

[Rick McTague]

 

Here is a picture of the doorway, taken January 2018.  Like everything around Dealey Plaza, it is much smaller in person than you might think just looking at pictures and film.

Hope this helps add some perspective.

 

Edited February 16, 2018 by Rick McTague
Pic

[Guest]

The dims are not the same now as they were then. The entrance/exit has moved more inwards.

[Rick McTague]

13 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

The dims are not the same now as they were then. The entrance/exit has moved more inwards.

I wasn't aware of modifications to the TSBD entrance - when did that happen, and what did they change specifically?

Thanks

[Guest]

My guess would be when the place was turned into a museum. The old entrance is a fire exit now.

The handrail in the centre was taken away and two were mounted on the side of the steps.

Here are the front steps drawings, courtesy of Gary Murr which I posted at my site late Oct 2017.

http://www.prayer-man.com/detailed-drawings-of-the-front-steps-of-the-tsbd/

 

[Thomas Graves]

On 2/16/2018 at 9:38 AM, Bart Kamp said:

  .....

The women who stated they were standing on the steps were
Ruth Dean (all in black and IDed)
Maddie Reese (wearing a rain coat IDed as well).
Judy McCully 
Avery Davis
Pauline Sanders
Sarah Stanton

Two of these stated they stood on the top platform (Sanders and Stanton).
So that leaves two who ought to be part of that group of five.
That leaves three (wo)men unidentified at the end of the Darnell shot.

 

  .....

 

(emphasis added by TG)

 

Bart,

 

How many minutes before the assassination did Pauline Sanders "place" Sarah Stanton's exact position on the top platform?

Five?  Ten?

 

Isn't it possible that Stanton moved to a different part of the platform during the intervening minutes?

 

 

--  TG

 

Edited April 23, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Guest]

Everything is 'possible' Tommy boy, even Brian Doyle being Prayer Man.

It's all 'possible'........ but Prayer Man is a HE and not a SHE......

[Andrej Stancak]

17 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

How many minutes before the assassination did Pauline Sanders "place" Sarah Stanton's exact position on the top platform?

It is a known problem that the testimonies of the people in the doorway often do not have a proper time tag. However, Mrs. Stanton and Mrs. Sanders stood on the top platform of the doorway while the motorcade was passing the Depository building. The people in the doorway were changing their locations to optimise their views of the scene, some moved more, some less. It is therefore useful to speak about the locations of the Depository employees based on a particular film or photograph because this is the evidence. We do not have any evidence about the doorway scene in the instants in between the films, and it would therefore be a mere speculation to argue about what the people in the doorway could hear, whom they spoke to or where they stood unless there is a visual evidence to support such statement.

The big problem for Prayer Man = Sarah Stanton hypothesis is that both unaccounted ladies can be seen in one single frame of Darnell film. One lady was short and stood close to the glass window in the eastern part of the doorway. She measured less than 5''. Her location is such that this lady could be seen neither in Altgens6 nor Wiegman film. The only document which could prove her presence in the doorway was one frame of Darnell film. Page 1 of this thread reveals her figure. Notably, she could be seen only because Mr. Molina stepped down one step and unblocked the view of Mrs. Sanders figure. The big problem is not this particular figure but the subsequent finding of another person standing behind Mr. Shelley's right shoulder. This person was taller than Mrs. Sanders, however, not tall enough to be a man. This person can be seen in one and the same frame of Darnell film at the spot close to a spot at which this person would be predicted based on the traces of her figure in Altgens6. So, both ladies can be seen standing on the top landing in one frame and this frame also shows - Prayer Man. Notably, Mrs. Stanton, the taller of the two ladies (she stands behind Mr. Lovelady in Altgens6 and behind Mr. Shelley in Darnell) stands where other witnesses would place her. To sum up, Prayer Man could not be Mrs. Stanton because the small portions of her figure can be seen in Altgens6 and Darnell's stills. 

Bart made a legitimate comment few months ago about a geometric impossibility of a person to stand behind Mr. Lovelady in Altgens6. This prompted a serious analysis on my part which is not finished yet. I will post the results when they are ready, and apologise for not being that quick as this forum members would like. However, there is no point to show imperfect or incomplete work. After all, Altgesn6 is a photograph of historic significance and deserves to be understood properly. Over the period of more than 54 years, too much of wrong assumptions and conclusions pertaining Altgens6 have been made, and there is no point adding one more flawed attempt. 

In the meantime, the identification of the two ladies in Darnell's still can be read here: http://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com

 

Edited April 24, 2018 by Andrej Stancak

[Ron Ecker]

19 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Altgesn6 is a photograph of historic significance and deserves to be understood properly.

 

I agree and have a question. It's a dumb one, I guess, because I believe I had this explained to me years ago, but I've already forgotten the explanation.

What is the long white thing that appears to be draped over Lovelady's left shoulder? It looks just like (but can't be) the white dress shirt and long thin necktie of a man standing behind him. But it can't be, unless Lovelady had no left shoulder at all.

 

[Guest]

That is William Hoyt's Shelley's shirt Ron

[Ron Ecker]

11 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

That is William Hoyt's Shelley's shirt Ron

OK thanks. It certainly looks like a shirt, but I couldn't make sense of Lovelady's shoulder. I can see now where what looks like the top of Lovelady's shoulder (such as it is) is the darkness of Shelley's coat, which makes the shoulder look more straight-down than it is. 

 

[Ron Ecker]

Something just occurred to me. What if there were not two Oswalds but three? Lovelady would be the third one, looking more like Harvey than Lee.

Was the resemblance between two TSBD employees (to the extent that one was mistaken for the other in the doorway) just another dadgum coincidence? Or did the conspirators manage to get both of them hired there?

What do we know about Lovelady's mother? Would love to see a pic.

I think I'm just kidding.