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# Mrs. Stanton, Mrs. Sanders, where are you?

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8 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

To say it again in a slightly different way -- if you were to depict "Prayer Man" and the others as they appear in a Wiegman frame by using the new software and by using the same portal dimensions you used for the Darnell frame, it would show that Prayer Man couldn't have been standing the way he is in your graphic.

And here's another thing:  It looks to me as though Prayer Man is turned about 70 degrees farther to his left in Wiegman than he is in Couch-Darnell, and for the life of me I can't figure out how made that pivot on just one foot.

Of course, Prayer Man stands slightly differently in Wiegman and Darnell because these two films were taken tens of seconds apart. The question is not whether Prayer Man's left foot was exactly on the same spot in Wiegman and Darnell as we do not see the left leg anyway in any of these documents. The question is if Prayer Man in Wiegman was a person 5'9''' and standing on the second step (with one foot or two feet, it does not matter) which would exclude him to be a woman 5'2''. Here I am confident that Prayer Man was effectively standing on the second step and not on the top landing. I have not modelled Prayer Man in Wiegman using the realistic 3D model (available to me in October or early November last year) and therefore cannot say how exactly his legs were arranged. Actually, we may never know about his left foot because it is not visible in Wiegman and it may be possible that he had his left leg bent and his left foot resting on the top landing but also that he stood with both his feet on the second step. I can prepare two different solutions, one with his left foot on the top landing and one with both his feet on the second step and see if it is possible to prefer one of these two solutions over the other. However, I cannot do it now because I am still working on Altgens6 and see no reason to stop this project and move to Wiegman only because you ask questions.

Without doing any 3D modelling, you can easily check Prayer Man's location in Wiegman yourself.  Please have a look at the distance between the edge of the red brick column and Prayer Man's right elbow. This short distance could not be achieved by having this person standing on the top landing. Sorry. When the time comes, I will present a full reconstruction of Wiegman, however, this observation alone discards the possibility that Prayer Man was standing on the top landing.

I am a busy person and so I will excuse myself from responding to your constant flow of questions focused on Prayer Man and not on the human figures I showed in this thread. I wish to complete my analysis of Altgens6 first and will come back to you with Wiegman analysis in due time. I hope you will understand and accept what I am saying. If you would like to discuss Prayer Man in Wiegman, please do so in a different thread as this thread is not about Prayer Man in Wiegman.

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12 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Of course, Prayer Man stands slightly differently in Wiegman and Darnell because these two films were taken tens of seconds apart. The question is not whether Prayer Man's left foot was exactly on the same spot in Wiegman and Darnell as we do not see the left leg anyway in any of these documents. The question is if Prayer Man in Wiegman was a person 5'9''' and standing on the second step (with one foot or two feet, it does not matter) which would exclude him to be a woman 5'2''. Here I am confident that Prayer Man was effectively standing on the second step and not on the top landing. I have not modelled Prayer Man in Wiegman using the realistic 3D model (available to me in October or early November last year) and therefore cannot say how exactly his legs were arranged. Actually, we may never know about his left foot because it is not visible in Wiegman and it may be possible that he had his left leg bent and his left foot resting on the top landing but also that he stood with both his feet on the second step. I can prepare two different solutions, one with his left foot on the top landing and one with both his feet on the second step and see if it is possible to prefer one of these two solutions over the other. However, I cannot do it now because I am still working on Altgens6 and see no reason to stop this project and move to Wiegman only because you ask questions.

Without doing any 3D modelling, you can easily check Prayer Man's location in Wiegman yourself.  Please have a look at the distance between the edge of the red brick column and Prayer Man's right elbow. This short distance could not be achieved by having this person standing on the top landing. Sorry. When the time comes, I will present a full reconstruction of Wiegman, however, this observation alone discards the possibility that Prayer Man was standing on the top landing.

I am a busy person and so I will excuse myself from responding to your constant flow of questions focused on Prayer Man and not on the human figures I showed in this thread. I wish to complete my analysis of Altgens6 first and will come back to you with Wiegman analysis in due time. I hope you will understand and accept what I am saying. If you would like to discuss Prayer Man in Wiegman, please do so in a different thread as this thread is not about Prayer Man in Wiegman.

You seem to be avoiding my point that it is impossible for a person who has normal, equal-length legs to stand reasonably safely and comfortably with one foot on a landing, and the other foot on a step that is 7 inches below the landing, and keep their shoulders parallel with the landing.

--  TG

Edited by Thomas Graves
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10 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Andrej,

Since one of the purposes of this thread is to try to identify Sarah Stanton in films taken during and immediately after the assassination, I believe that what I'm posting here is on topic, in that it could help us to locate a probably average-height (5' 5" - 5' 6") Sarah Stanton in said films.

To wit:  It makes a lot more sense to me physics-wise, anatomy-wise, and context-wise that the "Prayer Man" who is visible in Wiegman and Couch-Darnell is a 5' 5" or 5' 6" person (5' 6" Harvey?  Sarah Stanton?) who, as we can see in the Darnell clip, was standing sufficiently close to the EDIT ALERT: WEST wall and sufficiently near the top step to have his right hand (and only his right hand) in the sunlight, and who must be standing with both feet on the landing in order to look the way he looks in the frames.

Why do I say both of "Prayer Man's" feet must be on the landing?

Because in both Wiegman and Darnell, "Prayer Man's" shoulders appear to be parallel with the plane of the landing.

To say it again in a slightly different way -- even if you were to depict "Prayer Man" (and the others) as they appear in a Wiegman frame by using the new software and by using the same portal dimensions you used for the Darnell frame, it would still show that Prayer Man couldn't have been standing the way he is in your Darnell graphic in which it is obvious that in order to (rightfully-so) keep "Prayer Man's" shoulders parallel with the plane of the landing, and (wrongfully, imho) his right foot on the top step, you had to make his right leg freakishly longer than his left.

And here's another thing:  It looks to me as though Prayer Man is turned about 70 degrees farther to his left in Couch-Darnell than he is in Wiegman, and for the life of me I can't figure out how made that pivot on just one foot.

L:  Wiegman frame
R:  Darnell frame

--  TG

edited, augmented, bumped

--  TG

Edited by Thomas Graves
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59 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Because in both Wiegman and Darnell, "Prayer Man's" shoulders appear to be parallel with the plane of the landing.

No. Prayer Man is orientated differently in these two films. As per veracity of my reconstruction, please see the overlay of the 3D doorway and Darnell still in http:/thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com. The Prayer Man figure fits the modeled figure which could not be so if the model were wrong.

Why do you again raise the Prayer Man issue in Darnell and Wiegman if this thread is not about this problem, and I asked you politely not do it and rather create your own thread to investigate the issue?

Edited by Andrej Stancak
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29 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

No. Prayer Man is orientated differently in these two films. As per veracity of my reconstruction, please see the overlay of the 3D doorway and Darnell still in http:/thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com. The Prayer Man figure fits the modeled figure which could not be so if the model were wrong.

Why do you again raise the Prayer Man issue in Darnell and Wiegman if this thread is not about this problem, and I asked you politely not do it and rather create your own thread to investigate the issue?

Andrej,

All I'm saying is that in both the Wiegman and the Darnell clips, if you were to draw a straight line from one of "Prayer Man's" shoulders to the other, you would see that that line is parallel with the plane of the landing, and that simple fact precludes your "Prayer Man's" standing with one foot on the landing and one foot on the top step in either Wiegman or Darnell.

Why?

Because if he were standing like that (i.e., with one foot on the landing and the other foot on the top step) his right shoulder would be noticeably dipped/tilted towards that plane, i.e., the plane of the "floor"; the plane of the "landing", whatever you want to call it.

You have managed to keep Prayer Man's shoulders parallel with that plane only by giving him a freakisly long right leg!

--  TG

Edited by Thomas Graves
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5 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

All I'm saying is that in both the Wiegman and the Darnell clips, if you were to draw a straight line from one of "Prayer Man's" shoulders to the other, you would see that that line is parallel with the plane of the landing, and that simple fact precludes your "Prayer Man's" standing with one foot on the landing and one foot on the top step in either Wiegman or Darnell.

Can you draw those lines for everyone to see?

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15 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Can you draw those lines for everyone to see?

Andrej,

No, I can't, probably because I'm a 68.5 year-old "Neanderthal" when it comes to Windows 10 and and creating computer graphics in general, but perhaps you can.  I do trust my own eyes and my ability to convey what I see, however.

Regardless, do you think the axis of "his" body (or, in other words,  "his" shoulders) is significantly tilted towards the plane of the landing in either Wiegman or Darnell?

I mean after all, doesn't that top step have a 7-inch "rise"?

Why is the right leg of your Darnell-based "Prayer Man" two to three inches longer than his left leg, Andrej?

Did you have to make him like that so that his shoulders would be relatively level in your graphic?

--  TG

PS  If I start a new thread on this, what do you suggest that I call it?

Edited by Thomas Graves
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Thomas, enough is enough. However, it is a thread that reveals two so far unaccounted people on the doorway, and I see no reason to have this thread stalled or derailed with some funny Prayer Man ideas. I will resume posting on this thread with a completed analysis of Altgens6.

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2 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Thomas, enough is enough. However, it is a thread that reveals two so far unaccounted people on the doorway, and I see no reason to have this thread stalled or derailed with some funny Prayer Man ideas. I will resume posting on this thread with a completed analysis of Altgens6.

Deleted here and moved to my "My New Thread"

--  TG

Edited by Thomas Graves
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1 hour ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Thomas, enough is enough.

1 hour ago, Thomas Graves said:

Brian Doyle offers a blistering critique of Andrej's inaccurate 3D cartoon.  Not only does Doyle point out the extra long inhuman leg but he also covers how the "new and improved kinder and gentler" version of this forum totally quashes all dissent for the crazy theories you will find on this forum. In other words, all Andrej has to do when someone backs him into a legitimate corner is go crying "enough is enough" and the admins will step in and slap a two posts a day or whatever the xxxx their new policy is.  Then DiEugenio will step in and applaud the kinder and gentler "new" forum again.

So read Doyle and weep/laugh; bottom line is Andrej, in his zeal to "prove" that the figure in the photos is LHO, will do and say anything to defend his "scientific" work.

As for me, I don't know where I read it, but I'm now convinced the figure is not LHO.  Why?  Simple - if the plotters went through all of this planning of setting up a fake snipers nest so the blame can be placed on Oswald, do you really think they would have allowed Oswald to be roaming around in public during the actual murder when he was supposed to be up on the 6th floor killing Kennedy? Of course not.  It totally goes against all reason and plausibility.

To Tom Graves - I really miss the "dripping with sarcasm" Tom Graves.  The kinder and gentler Graves of late is just not you.

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Say whatever you want , Michael.  This whole thing stinks, any way you look at it.

Brian would be here, if he weren't such a mean person.  He calls everyone who doesn't agree with him names.  I read all of the stuff he writes.  I certainly wouldn't talk about James the way he does and expect to be welcomed here.

If Prayer person is a man or woman, I don't care. I do care about how folks treat each other though.

While we are at it, i think it's ridiculous to ask Andrej to do this or that, and then when he does, it's either not good enough or he is asked to do something else.  I wouldn't do it. I can't believe folk would actually get upset that the  analysis  is not done yet.

Tom, I've got a great idea! Why don't you draw some stuff, and quit badgering someone else. That you are up there in years is not a valid excuse to dog on someone else.

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11 minutes ago, Kathy Beckett said:

Say whatever you want , Michael.  This whole thing stinks, any way you look at it.

Brian would be here, if he weren't such a mean person.  He calls everyone who doesn't agree with him names.  I read all of the stuff he writes.  I certainly wouldn't talk about James the way he does and expect to be welcomed here.

If Prayer person is a man or woman, I don't care. I do care about how folks treat each other though.

While we are at it, i think it's ridiculous to ask Andrej to do this or that, and then when he does, it's either not good enough or he is asked to do something else.  I wouldn't do it. I can't believe folk would actually get upset that the  analysis  is not done yet.  Yes, Tsk, Tsk Andrej, get to it!  We must be fed!!

Tom, I've got a great idea! Why don't you draw some stuff, and quit badgering someone else. That you are up there in years is not a valid excuse to dog on someone else.

Kathy,

I look at it more as unbiased, critical-minded peer review than, as you so quaintly put it,  ... "dogging".

--  TG

PS  How do you explain Andrej's Prayer Man's having a right leg two or three inches longer than his left leg, other than an attempt by Andrej to pound the proverbial "square peg into a round hole"?

Edited by Thomas Graves
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59 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Kathy,

I look at it more as unbiased, critical-minded peer review than, as you so quaintly put it,  ... "dogging".

Tom, I've been doing mutlimedia for 32 years now.  Even I like to learn new things.  Andrej used a FREE piece of software called Sketch Up.  You can download it for free.  I know you're 68.5 years old but maybe it will exercise the other part of your brain and add years to your life.

Here's a short 3D piece I made with it. I made this when I was 52.75 years old:

Give it a whirl and have fun - who knows, maybe you'll amaze yourself and become the new Dealey Plaza animator with legs that are of human proportions.

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On 4/27/2018 at 10:11 AM, Thomas Graves said:

You seem to be avoiding my point that it is impossible for a person who has normal, equal-length legs to stand reasonably safely and comfortably with one foot on a landing, and the other foot on a step that is 7 inches below the landing, and keep their shoulders parallel with the landing.

--  TG

Rubbish. I've just tried it and my shoulders stayed level, because my weight was on the lower leg not on both. Try it yourself.

Edited by Ray Mitcham
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• 7 months later...

I managed to talk to Judith MCully's daughter and got her position during the shooting solved. And it is as her first statement stated. She was on the 4th floor and not the front steps.

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