The Men Who Killed Kennedy series

[James DiEugenio]

Len Osanic's series Fifty Reasons for Fifty Years was really good.

And to think that he and Jeff Carter did that by themselves, with no one else producing?

It shows what two dedicated people can do with the modern technology we have today.  If you have not seen it, you should.

 

Edited February 15, 2018 by James DiEugenio

[Joe Bauer]

18 hours ago, Bruce Fernandez said:

Pitzer was right handed with no deformity!

Bruce, why do you believe Dennis David ( Pritzer's close friend, workmate and Bridge partner and who knew his interview comments in TMWKK interview would be presented to the entire world ) would confidently assert in this interview that Pitzer was "left handed?"

Dennis David even gives a graphic first hand account of Pitzer's left handedness that he (David ) personally witnessed by the way Pritzer dealt the Bridge cards in reverse.

I keep waiting to see some research copy of a sworn and notarized affidavit by Pritzer's wife or sons or official school or medical records regarding Pritzer's left or right handedness. The truth about Pritzer's death is very dependent on this information.

Bruce,  could you please send me a link to the primary or even secondary source of your finding regards Pitzer's left or right handedness? 

Thanks.

 

Edited February 16, 2018 by Joe Bauer

[Sandy Larsen]

12 hours ago, Ray Mitcham said:

Joe, Pitzer's friend Jerrol Custer said this.

 

Custer: I saw this. Later on it was brought out that Commander Pitzer - well of course he made commander farther down the line - had committed suicide by blowing his brains out by putting a gun in his right hand and shooting himself.

Law: What's so unusual about that if you're going to commit suicide?

Custer: Well, it's kind of funny. How can you commit suicide when you have a deformed right hand? That couldn't hold a gun? This was clue [sic due] to a birth defect. And Dennis David' knew it. Everybody that knew the chief knew it and it was evident that night. When he was taking the movies, you could see the hand was deformed. But suicide was the reason for the death on his death certificate, which, I felt, was part of the cover-up. See, you have to be there. You have to see what's going on. Everything is plain and simple. It's there! It's right in front of you! The government feels the experts, so-called experts, are going to look at everything but the nose on their faces. And if you just stop and look at what's right in front of you and not try and surmise, "Well this is why, this is why that happened." My God-Kennedy's skull was pushed backward! Basic physics! You had to have a force from the front! If you had a force from the back, everything would have been pushed forward. Common sense! Doesn't take a genius to figure that one out.

 

Interesting Ray.

Can someone please explain this:

According to Custer, everybody who knew Pitzer knew that he had a deformed right hand, due to a birth defect. Whether or not that is true, it is a very important allegation that Eaglesham should have addressed.

I did a quick search through Eaglesham's articles. I searched for the word "hand" to see if I could find any mention of a deformed right hand. Not one word. (Though there was something about his left hand being damaged, something to do with his wedding ring, I think.)

Unless I've made a mistake, I'd be a little wary of Eaglesham's conclusions. Because he should have addressed something so important.

Could it be that Eaglesham was completely ignorant of Custer's claim? Shouldn't we have more confidence in people who worked with Pitzer than those who haven't?

 

On the other hand....

Isn't Custer saying in the quote above that Pitzer was filming the autopsy from right there in the autopsy room?? I thought that he supposedly did so from a different room via CCTV. Could it be that Custer is just a very confused fellow?

 

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Dennis David even gives a graphic first hand account of Pitzer's left handedness that he (David ) personally witnessed by the way Pritzer dealt the Bridge cards in reverse.

And Custer said that they all knew that Pitzer's right hand was deformed. It seems so... consistent.

 

[James DiEugenio]

Sandy, did you read the four part series?

Allan is a  careful researcher and he spent ten years on this case.  Plus, he is an honest person who does not say something to just gain an advantage, like others do.  Here is the key segment concerning the fact Pitzer was right handed:

Since LCDR Pitzer's colleague Dennis David and widow stated it unequivocally (according to author Harrison Livingston in High Treason 2 (Carroll & Graf, 1992) and in Stunning New Evidence in the JFK Case [http://www.harrison-e-livingstone.com/jfk/]), it appears certain that William Pitzer was left-handed. However, Mr. Livingstone failed to remind his readers that Mrs. Pitzer had already given him different information: High Treason (co-authored by Robert Groden, Conservatory Press, 1989) states, "His widow said...he was right-handed."

In a telephone conversation with Daniel Marvin in 1995, of which I have an audiotape, Mrs. Pitzer stated clearly that her husband had been right-handed [4]:

Marvin: Was he -- was Bill -- right-handed or left-handed? 
Mrs. Pitzer: He was right-handed. 
Marvin: Right-handed.

And documents released under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) in 1997 to Marvin by the FBI (who investigated Pitzer's death in conjunction with the Naval Investigative Service) confirmed that Pitzer was right-handed. Yet, in a 2003 interview for a television documentary shown in Russia, of which I also have a copy, Marvin stated that William Pitzer had been left-handed. Thus, despite information to the contrary from the best possible source -- the widow -- both Livingstone and Marvin appear to have a vested interest in perpetuating a myth. I have verified that he was right-handed with two other members of the Pitzer family and with navy colleague Alvin Edwards, himself left-handed, who witnessed LCDR Pitzer committing his signature to paper on many occasions. A sketch of the death scene made by NIS and FBI investigators shows an ashtray on the floor to the right of an empty chair (the other chair had a pad and pencil on it), a strong indication in itself that Pitzer was right-handed (Figure 1).

 If you read this closely, that false information about the case is really from the late Harry Livingstone. Which makes it a secondary source. It also shows that Marvin, who knew better, misrepresented--for whatever reason-- the info later.

Therefore, since Pitzer was right handed, there was no deformity, or how else could he use that hand to write with?

Please do not ask me to get into the case of Jerrol Custer either.  Suffice it to say that if you know the medical aspects of this case, I should not have to.

Edited February 16, 2018 by James DiEugenio

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Sandy, did you read the four part series?

Allan is a  careful researcher and he spent ten years on this case.  Plus, he is an honest person who does not say something to just gain an advantage, like others do.  Here is the key segment concerning the fact Pitzer was right handed:

Since LCDR Pitzer's colleague Dennis David and widow stated it unequivocally (according to author Harrison Livingston in High Treason 2 (Carroll & Graf, 1992) and in Stunning New Evidence in the JFK Case [http://www.harrison-e-livingstone.com/jfk/]), it appears certain that William Pitzer was left-handed. However, Mr. Livingstone failed to remind his readers that Mrs. Pitzer had already given him different information: High Treason (co-authored by Robert Groden, Conservatory Press, 1989) states, "His widow said...he was right-handed."

In a telephone conversation with Daniel Marvin in 1995, of which I have an audiotape, Mrs. Pitzer stated clearly that her husband had been right-handed [4]:

Marvin: Was he -- was Bill -- right-handed or left-handed? 
Mrs. Pitzer: He was right-handed. 
Marvin: Right-handed.

And documents released under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) in 1997 to Marvin by the FBI (who investigated Pitzer's death in conjunction with the Naval Investigative Service) confirmed that Pitzer was right-handed. Yet, in a 2003 interview for a television documentary shown in Russia, of which I also have a copy, Marvin stated that William Pitzer had been left-handed. Thus, despite information to the contrary from the best possible source -- the widow -- both Livingstone and Marvin appear to have a vested interest in perpetuating a myth. I have verified that he was right-handed with two other members of the Pitzer family and with navy colleague Alvin Edwards, himself left-handed, who witnessed LCDR Pitzer committing his signature to paper on many occasions. A sketch of the death scene made by NIS and FBI investigators shows an ashtray on the floor to the right of an empty chair (the other chair had a pad and pencil on it), a strong indication in itself that Pitzer was right-handed (Figure 1).

 If you read this closely, that false information about the case is really from the late Harry Livingstone. Which makes it a secondary source. It also shows that Marvin, who knew better, misrepresented--for whatever reason-- the info later.

Therefore, since Pitzer was right handed, there was no deformity, or how else could he use that hand to write with?

Please do not ask me to get into the case of Jerrol Custer either.  Suffice it to say that if you know the medical aspects of this case, I should not have to.

 

Thanks Jim. You put a lot into that and I truly appreciate it.

I guess I shouldn't be so surprised that JC would fabricate significant things like that out of whole cloth. I've witnessed the same being done right here on the forum. It's sad really.

And DD too? Really, really sad.  Not to mention what the researchers did.

I guess some people place more importance on telling a good story than on telling an accurate one.

 

[Ray Mitcham]

It is possible that Pitzer was right handed, but used his left hand more because his right was deformed. One fact doesn't negate the other. I have a gammy right index finger (cut the tendon when I was kid) which causes me some trouble and occasionally use my left hand because my unbending right index finger gets in the way. (I'm right handed by the way.)

Edited February 16, 2018 by Ray Mitcham

[James DiEugenio]

Ray:

 Alvin Edwards was an eye witness who says he saw him sign things using his right hand.

How could it be deformed then?

I would think that people who have been on this case for awhile would understand that there is a propensity by certain people to change their stories, to add information, and for some to just plain confabulate.  For some there is always the promise of 15 minutes of fame, e.g. Baker, Files, the late Chauncey Holt.

[Bruce Fernandez]

Joe, Bill Pizer was my much admired uncle. He was right handed with no deformity of any nature. I have had several discussions with Alan Eaglesham over the years and agree with him that so far there is no reliable evidence for a conclusion of foul play. From my point of view, however, there are some family issues swirling around the circumstances that I can't yet come to grips with as well as shoddy investigative techniques at the time. His autopsy was quite clean and though it states, to the best of my recollection, that there were not "powder burns" around the entrance wound, the autopsy photos are not so convincing on that point.

Dennis David did say that Bill was left handed because he dealt bridge that way, but in some later statement, probably after he had seen the right handed statements, suggested that Bill might have simply been showing off his dexterity. I would agree that might be something Bill would do.

I know that Alan and Marvin (both from the Ithica, NY area) came apart at some point as did Marvin with the Green Beret society, I think in that case because he was revealing info they thought was inappropriate for a covert operative or perhaps incorrect. His approach to my aunt was that he had found religion and needed to unburden himself in this life. I frankly found him believable. I have a hard time thinking that watching a TV program (his story) with a list of Kennedy associated deaths scrolling at the end, he would jump on a single name with an AHA I remember that name and then go on some long trip of bothering the widow and her family. Doesn't make sense to me but .... who knows, he's now gone so that motivation is tough to tease out.

Vanek has, I believe, been found (a dentist in the Midwest somewhere), and of course denies all. The govt at first denied his service, but fortunately Marvin had a set of Army orders with both their names on it.

[Ray Mitcham]

28 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Ray:

 Alvin Edwards was an eye witness who says he saw him sign things using his right hand.

How could it be deformed then?

I would think that people who have been on this case for awhile would understand that there is a propensity by certain people to change their stories, to add information, and for some to just plain confabulate.  For some there is always the promise of 15 minutes of fame, e.g. Baker, Files, the late Chauncey Holt.

Jim, I can't bend my right index finger but I write right handedly.  I can hold a pen but would  say my hand was kind of deformed. I wouldn't be able to pull the trigger on a handgun, unless I used my middle finger.

[James DiEugenio]

Ray;

How many witnesses does one need?

The guy's nephew just said it above: he was right handed and there was no deformity.  Don't you think his wife would have noticed?  

Please, please tread carefully.  There are so many jokers in the deck in this case.

[Ray Mitcham]

26 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Ray;

How many witnesses does one need?

The guy's nephew just said it above: he was right handed and there was no deformity.  Don't you think his wife would have noticed?  

Please, please tread carefully.  There are so many jokers in the deck in this case.

Certainly will, Jim. However, I doubt if any of my nephews know of my " deformity".

[Bruce Fernandez]

Ray, put it to bed, you're out there. If you care about the truth, call me at 860-677-7073, otherwise, go silent on this issue, you are way .... off base!

B

[Bruce Fernandez]

PS: Anyone who would like to call me at the above number (860-677-7073) is welcome to do so about this issue as long as they understand that I have no problem hanging up or not answering (it's my phone).

[James DiEugenio]

The other thing is this:  Allan could find no evidence of any film of the autopsy.

To me, that is a central finding.  Because that is supposed to be the reason d'être.