A BULLET STRIKE ON LIMO'S FRONT BUMPER?

[Chris Bristow]

On the upper part of the front bumper, just above the "GG" on the license plate, is what looks like a bullet strike. When a bullet hits paint or chrome on a car it often shows a dark hole or dent in the center surrounded by paint primer for about 1/2 inch, then the paint or chrome around the primer. The mark on the bumper fits that description.
 

 

[David Josephs]

You been duped

https://www.google.com/search?q=altgens+6&client=tablet-android-att-us&prmd=ismvn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjh_o2T8dbZAhVo4oMKHXK7CHYQ_AUIESgB#imgrc=dCAIaukbV37DLM:

 

[Chris Bristow]

Thanks, I wondered why I could not find anything on it. I will leave it up for anyone else that was not ware of this hoax. 

[Joe Bauer]

But what about the bullet hole looking indentation in the chrome inner and upper side frame of the front windshield?

Is that a hoax?

It is deep and visible enough ( from the few pics I have seen) that it would take much force to make an indentation like that into chrome plated steel.. That wasn't made by something light like a bottle or even a rock.

Some say this indentation was present before Dallas.

I would think that whoever was responsible for the SS100X's cosmetic appearance would have seen it and had it repaired before displaying the limo to thousands of adoring spectators. 

Best Witness: JFK's Limousine
Anthony Marsh
2nd Annual COPA Conference
Omni Shoreham, Washington, DC
October 22, 1995

The best witness to the JFK assassination was the Presidential limousine. As other researchers have pointed out, eyewitness testimony can be unreliable. Witnesses can be confused, lie, misremember events, or can be susceptible to suggestion. The damage to the limousine tells a story of its own, an accurate and truthful account of the events in Dealey Plaza.

One of the most important points of damage to the limousine was the dent of the chrome topping above the windshield. Was it caused by a direct hit of a bullet or a bullet fragment? In Six Seconds in Dallas, footnote 16 of chapter 5 quotes a letter from Chief of the Secret Service James Rowley, who claimed that the dent was caused way back on November 1, 1961 by routine maintenance. The Warren Report was ambiguous about the dent. It appears that the Warren Commission did not attempt to examine any photographs to determine if the chrome topping was undented before the assassination. There may have been several photographs they could have examined which would have resolved the issue. There were many photographs and films taken in Dealey Plaza before the shooting started. There were several photos and films taken at Love Field which showed the limousine in its pristine condition, such as this one by Tom Dillard (Figure 1). Unfortunately, the hand hold bar blocks our view of the chrome topping in this Dillard photo, but there must be other such photos which do show it clearly. There may also be other photographs and films from the motorcade which have not yet been made public. Just this August, LIFE magazine published one photograph taken by Presidential aide Dave Powers, who is believed to have taken several photos and a film of the motorcade at Love Field and before the motorcade reached Dealey Plaza ( Figure 2 ). Dave Powers' vantage point was especially privileged, as he rode in the Secret Service follow-up car, where the official White House photographer would normally ride, but didn't that day.

Cecil Stoughton, the official White House photgrapher, was stuck that day riding several cars back, in one of the camera cars. In fact, Stoughton was not even scheduled to go on the Texas trip, but had to fill in for Robert Knudsen, who had some slivers in his eye which needed to be removed [1]. Supposedly, Stoughton took only a couple of photos near Dealey Plaza, one just before the motorcade reached the plaza, and one of the grassy knoll about 30 seconds after he shooting. But, he did take photos of the limousine the day before when the President visited Kelly Air Force base in San Antonio. We can see in this photo that he did occupy the normal position in the Secret Service follow-up car (Figure 3). In the next photo we can see that the chrome topping was undented (Figure 4). The HSCA was seemingly unaware of, or ignored, the Stoughton photos, and did not address the issue of the dent of the chrome topping. However, HSCA photographic consultant Robert Groden did state at a conference at Emerson College a few years ago that he and a HSCA staff member had examined the chrome topping at the National Archives and that the nose of a Mannlicher-Carcano bullet like CE 399 fit perfectly into the indentation in the chrome topping. And here is a photograph taken by Robert Knudsen of an earlier motorcade in 1963 which shows that the chrome topping was undented (Figure 5).

Edited March 6, 2018 by Joe Bauer

[Pamela Brown]

7 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

On the upper part of the front bumper, just above the "GG" on the license plate, is what looks like a bullet strike. When a bullet hits paint or chrome on a car it often shows a dark hole or dent in the center surrounded by paint primer for about 1/2 inch, then the paint or chrome around the primer. The mark on the bumper fits that description.
 

 

The FBI team headed by SA Robert Frazier should have picked that up if that were the case when they did the forensic exam of SS100X, if that were the case...

[David Josephs]

10 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

But what about the bullet hole looking indentation in the heavy steel inner and upper side frame of the front windshield?

Is that a hoax?

No Joe, not a hoax...

Something stuck that spot....  I doubt it was a direct bullet hit... but more like a fragment

Treasury report from WCD80  https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10482 

 

[Joe Bauer]

David, according to the Treasury report you posted, they felt the chrome windshield frame indentation was caused by a bullet fragment ...after it exited JFK's shattered skull?

And that this same fragment, traveling upward from JFK'S skull, slams "into" ( not off of ) this strong metal chrome with enough speed, force and weight to make a substantial indentation, then ricochets back out and downward with enough force still to embed itself into a heavy vinyl or leather front seat cushion?

Obviously this so-called bullet fragment must have been substantial in size and still traveling at great velocity to have made the indentation we see in the most well known photo of the chrome dent. It's not a pea size indentation. ( See Robert Groden's indentation observation comments in my first post.) 

If we are to believe the Treasury explanation, the upward trajectory fragment, after breaking apart going through JFK's skull bones, then slams "into" and indents the chrome frame, and then pops or ricochets back out and downwards out of the dent while still traveling with enough velocity that it then embeds itself into a heavy leather or vinyl seat cushion?

Wouldn't solid chrome the fragment reportedly hit and went "into" have stopped it's movement cold or in the least not caused a pinball rebound effect with enough continued velocity to pierce heavy duty vinyl or leather?

Some very basic rules of elementary physics seem to be contradicted with this explanation.

Click on the photo link ( identified as figure 4 ) in the article I posted in my first post.

This was a photo taken by Cecil Stoughton of the inner front area of JFK's limo which clearly shows "no indentation" on the chrome windshield frame that is visible between the two sun visors. The indentation visible in later photos shows it to be in this open area between the two visors.

We can also see Nellie Connally in the jump seat of the limo which proves the picture was taken during JFK's visit to Texas on either 11,21,1963 or the 22nd.

Seems to me this is pretty valid photo evidence regards the true provenance of the windshield indentation regards when it first appeared. 

 

Edited March 6, 2018 by Joe Bauer

[David Josephs]

Joe... from what I've read... anything can happen after the bullet strikes such a thick bone as the skull...

The bullet appears to have been made to fragment as this chart shows... the Carcano could not fire at high enough speed to cause the fragmentation seen for a jacketed bullet..

We must remember that the fragment cloud seen extending from the right front to the left rear was micro particles... 

That simple does not happen with that kind of bullet...  unless it is a hunting type with a very thin copper jacket... then the lead fractures and spreads....

Whether the fragment they claim was embedded was actually THAT fragment.. who knows.  More importantly is the mention of the HOLE in the windshield... 

[Joe Bauer]

David, did you check out the Cecil Stoughton photo ( Figure 4 ) in the article I posted?

Also, the fragment the Treasury report describes as the one embedded into the front seat must have been one of the bigger ones in the photo of these to have indented the chrome windshield as substantially and deeply as the most well known photo shows.

So the part of the front seat where the chrome indentation fragment embedded itself into was between Greer and Kellerman? Lucky for them this didn't hit them in parts of importance.

And was the fragment scientifically analyzed to see if it matched the magic bullet in composition?

[Rick McTague]

2 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Joe... from what I've read... anything can happen after the bullet strikes such a thick bone as the skull...

The bullet appears to have been made to fragment as this chart shows... the Carcano could not fire at high enough speed to cause the fragmentation seen for a jacketed bullet..

We must remember that the fragment cloud seen extending from the right front to the left rear was micro particles... 

That simple does not happen with that kind of bullet...  unless it is a hunting type with a very thin copper jacket... then the lead fractures and spreads....

Whether the fragment they claim was embedded was actually THAT fragment.. who knows.  More importantly is the mention of the HOLE in the windshield... 

David,

I appreciate your reasoned posts here on EF.  Your post comes back to something I mentioned on another thread: multiple bullet types.  If we are to believe the WC and its adherents, LHO was not only a marksman of the first caliber (pun intended) but was able to load the magazine, in reverse order of where on JFK he intended to hit, two FMJ rounds (one miss, one for the magical fantasy single bullet CE399), followed by one fragmentary round (fatal head shot), followed by a fourth round he left in the rifle.  In addition, he didn't even feel the need to fully load the magazine; the MC mag holds 6 rounds but he was sure he could do the assassination in that order, with just 4 rounds. 

 
No one I know of loads multiple bullet types into any firearm.  Typically, the magazine/clip is fully loaded with the same type for the purpose of the shooting (FMJ for target and penetration / JHP for self-defense / soft-nosed or fragmentary for even nastier breakup and damage).  The only time a magazine is partially loaded is typically at the end of a shooting session when you have a few rounds left in the box to fire.  I would think if LHO set out to kill JFK, he would have had at least 6 rounds loaded up of the same type of ammo, if not having a spare mag for a reload.  It just doesn't add up.  

To me, beyond many other compelling pieces of evidence, the multiple ammunition types alone points to multiple shooters as does the through and through small caliber front to back hole in the windshield. 

Thanks,

Rick

[David Josephs]

Agree 100% Rick...

A 3rd type may even be what hits JFK in the throat... as this was not an exit wound (no matter how much Specter contorts that question)

You may have seen this elsewhere, this is a representation of what HUMES tells the WC...

Commander HUMES - Exhibit 391 is listed as a supplementary report on the autopsy of the late President Kennedy, and was prepared some days after the examination.
This delay necessitated by, primarily, our desire to have the brain better fixed with formaldehyde before we proceeded further with the examination of the brain which is a standard means of approach to study of the brain.
The brain in its fresh state does not lend itself well to examination.
From my notes of the examination, at the time of the post-mortem examination, we noted that clearly visible in the large skull defect and exuding from it was lacerated brain tissue which, on close inspection proved to represent the major portion of the right cerebral hemisphere.
We also noted at this point that the flocculus cerebri was extensively lacerated and that the superior sagittal sinus which is a venous blood containing channel in the top of the meninges was also lacerated. 
To continue to answer your question with regard to the damage of the brain, following the formal infixation, Dr. Boswell, Dr. Finck and I convened to examine the brain in this state.
We also prepared photographs of the brain from several aspects to depict the extent of these injuries.
We found that the right cerebral hemisphere was markedly disrupted. There was a longitudinal laceration of the right hemisphere which was parasagittal in position. By the saggital plane, as you may know, is a plane in the midline which would divide the brain into right and left halves. This laceration was parasagittal. It was situated approximately 2.5 cm. to the right of the midline, and extended from the tip of occipital lobe, which is the posterior portion of the brain, to the tip of the frontal lobe which is the most anterior portion of the brain, and it extended from the top down to the substance of the brain a distance of approximately 5 or 6 cm.
The base of the laceration was situated approximately 4.5 cm. below the vertex in the white matter. By the vertex we mean--the highest point on the skull is referred to as the vertex.
The area in which the greatest loss of brain substance was particularly in the parietal lobe, which is the major portion of the right cerebral hemisphere.
The margins of this laceration at all points were jagged and irregular, with additional lacerations extending in varying directions and for varying distances from the main laceration.
In addition, there was a laceration of the corpus callosum which is a body of fibers which connects the two hemispheres of the brain to each other, which extended from the posterior to the anterior portion of this structure, that is the corpus callosum. Exposed in this laceration were portions of the ventricular system in which the spinal fluid normally is disposed within the brain.
When viewed from above the left cerebral hemisphere was intact. There was engorgement of blood vessels in the meninges covering the brain. We note that the gyri and sulci, which are the convolutions of the brain over the left hemisphere were of normal size and distribution.
Those on the right were too fragmented and distorted for satisfactory description.
When the brain was turned over and viewed from its basular or inferior aspect, there was found a longitudinal laceration of the mid-brain through the floor of the third ventricle, just behind the optic chiasma and the mammillary bodies.
This laceration partially communicates with an oblique 1.5 cm. tear through the left cerebral peduncle. This is a portion of the brain which connects the higher centers of the brain with the spinal cord which is more concerned with reflex actions.
There were irregular superficial lacerations over the basular or inferior aspects of the left temporal and frontal lobes. We interpret that these later contusions were brought about when the disruptive force of the injury pushed that portion of the brain against the relative intact skull.
This has been described as contre-coup injury in that location.
This, then, I believe, Mr. Specter, are the major points with regard to the President's head wound.

 

 

In fact, I need to post it here just for people to get a sense of the dishonesty...  In essence he asks, "is an exit wound, an exit wound?"

Mr. SPECTER - Permit me to supply some additional facts, Dr. Perry, which I shall ask you to assume as being true for purposes of having you express an opinion.
Assume first of all that the President was struck by a 6.5 mm. copper-jacketed bullet fired from a gun having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, with the weapon being approximately 160 to 250 feet from the President, with the bullet striking him at an angle of declination of approximately 45 degrees, striking the President on the upper right posterior thorax just above the upper border of the scapula, being 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process, passing through the President's body striking no bones, traversing the neck and sliding between the large muscles in the posterior portion of the President's body through a fascia channel without violating the pleural cavity but bruising the apex of the right pleural cavity, and bruising the most apical portion of the right lung inflicting a hematoma to the right side of the larynx, which you have just described, and striking the trachea causing the injury which you described, and then exiting from the hole that you have described in the midline of the neck.
Now, assuming those facts to be true, would the hole which you observed in the neck of the President be consistent with an exit wound under those circumstances?  

 

Edited March 6, 2018 by David Josephs
assume as being true...

[Chris Bristow]

13 hours ago, Pamela Brown said:

The FBI team headed by SA Robert Frazier should have picked that up if that were the case when they did the forensic exam of SS100X, if that were the case...

Thanks Pamela, I assumed this was likely a false issue because it is so obvious yet I could not find it addressed on JFK forums. I thought it may be a defect on the photo but the resemblance to a bullet strike made my finally ask about it. I post videos on Youtube and a few debunk conspiracy theories that I found lacking. So I am open to input on either side of the issue. 

Edited March 7, 2018 by Chris Bristow

[Pamela Brown]

On 3/6/2018 at 6:14 PM, Chris Bristow said:

Thanks Pamela, I assumed this was likely a false issue because it is so obvious yet I could not find it addressed on JFK forums. I thought it may be a defect on the photo but the resemblance to a bullet strike made my finally ask about it. I post videos on Youtube and a few debunk conspiracy theories that I found lacking. So I am open to input on either side of the issue. 

Apologies for not seeing this earlier.  You need to view a copy of the NARA original.  I was unable to find one online, but will track my hard copy down asap...

[Chris Bristow]

On March 17, 2018 at 12:01 PM, Pamela Brown said:

Apologies for not seeing this earlier.  You need to view a copy of the NARA original.  I was unable to find one online, but will track my hard copy down asap...

Thanks I'm sure it's got some interesting bits.

[Pamela Brown]

On 3/18/2018 at 6:19 PM, Chris Bristow said:

Thanks I'm sure it's got some interesting bits.

Altgens6.tif

This  is one of Anthony Marsh's copies...