James DiEugenio Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 I would just like an informed crowd on the JFK case to go ahead and chime in on this issue. How many shells were up on the sixth floor and were found at about 1:00 PM? Please offer your insights if you can as to why you think what you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micah Mileto Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 (edited) I remember this funny bit from a Tom Rossley JFK debate. Rossley: "And why does the document only say two shells instead of three?" Opponent: "Oh, Tom, don't even go there! Even most of your friends in the conspiracy crowd wouldn't agree with that!" Rossley: "I just went there, my friend." Edited March 23, 2018 by Micah Mileto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 Fritz did have a way of hanging on to things, didn't he? The old klepto. Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 8 hours ago, James DiEugenio said: I would just like an informed crowd on the JFK case to go ahead and chime in on this issue. How many shells were up on the sixth floor and were found at about 1:00 PM? Please offer your insights if you can as to why you think what you do. Jim, You may be interested in this. Look at the DPD Archives Box 5, Folder# 2, Item# 102 page 1 http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box5.htm This is an inventory of the evidence in the case. 1 live round 6.5 Recovered by Dep't Sheriff Luke Mooney at 411 Elm, 6th floor, in the southeast window. 6.5 spent rounds (3) Found by Deputy Sheriff Mooney; picked up by Det. R.M. Sims. No mention of the live round ejected from the rifle and retained by Fritz. Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 16 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said: Jim, You may be interested in this. Look at the DPD Archives Box 5, Folder# 2, Item# 102 page 1 http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box5.htm This is an inventory of the evidence in the case. 1 live round 6.5 Recovered by Dep't Sheriff Luke Mooney at 411 Elm, 6th floor, in the southeast window. 6.5 spent rounds (3) Found by Deputy Sheriff Mooney; picked up by Det. R.M. Sims. No mention of the live round ejected from the rifle and retained by Fritz. Steve Thomas Compare this to: DPD Archives Box 6, Folder# 1, Item# 23 page 5 http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box6.htm This is an index tab for the evidence in the DPD case file under “e” for evidence live round 6.5 3 6.5 spent rounds Found by Dep Sheriff Mooney. Picked up by Det. R.M. Sims. Notice how the wording about where that live round was discovered has changed. Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 Jim, Obviously Fritz complicated the matter of the shells, so it's probably best to clarify the subject by considering the bullets that came from those shells. When looked at this way, the answer is obviously "three," but only if we carefully analyze the situation. So.... One of Oswald's three bullets entered the President's head near the bottom of his skull, and also four inches higher. A second bullet entered the base of the President's neck, and also several inches lower in his back, exited an entrance wound in his throat, struck Governor Connally's back, broke a rib bone, exited his chest, broke two bones in his right wrist, became embedded in thigh bone, and finally fell out onto the gurney of a little boy in Parkland Memorial Hospital. A third bullet missed entirely, striking a tree limb which separated the jacket from the lead core, and the core traveled on to strike pavement near James Tague, a motorcade bystander who was slightly wounded by concrete splatter. (I'm actually a little uneasy about this explanation, but if Gerald Posner claims its true, who am I to argue?) Now here's where you have to pay close attention.... Another third bullet hit the turf along the south side of Elm St near a manhole cover. A third third bullet hit the pavement on Elm Street just to the right and behind the Presidential limousine near the Book Depository. A fourth third bullet grew in size and then evaporated while in FBI evidence envelope 89-43-1A-122. (For technical details, see "Growth and evaporation of full metal jacketed bullets in Southern U.S. climates" by Luis Alvarez and also "Urinary Tricks and Evidence Envelopes" by Dr. John Lattimer.) We really need to "trust the experts" on this one! I hope this clarifies the bullet situation. I've only managed to understand it by studying U.S. documents for many years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 10 hours ago, James DiEugenio said: I would just like an informed crowd on the JFK case to go ahead and chime in on this issue. How many shells were up on the sixth floor and were found at about 1:00 PM? Please offer your insights if you can as to why you think what you do. Jim, Read pages 90-94 of Noel Twyman's Bloody Treason here (especially page 92): https://www.krusch.com/books/kennedy/Bloody_Treason.pdf Here's a wild thought. Did Fritz take the live shell from the rifle and throw it on the floor with the spent shells? Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Murr Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 Hi Steve: Unfortunately Twyman, and many others, are just wrong on this point about the image in question showing a fully loaded 6.5mm WCC Carcano cartridge along the sixth floor southeast corner window wall, down in one of the spaces between the boards, circled as "A". If one looks at a decent copy of this photograph and enlarges this area it is clear that this is a spent cartridge case, not a loaded cartridge. I am attaching a link below; go to this image from the Texas Portal website, click on it and then use the "zoom" function to expand the image as large as you like; then look at cartridge "A". Link: https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49604/?q=Texas%20School%20Book%20Depository FWIW Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 8 minutes ago, Gary Murr said: Hi Steve: Unfortunately Twyman, and many others, are just wrong on this point about the image in question showing a fully loaded 6.5mm WCC Carcano cartridge along the sixth floor southeast corner window wall, down in one of the spaces between the boards, circled as "A". If one looks at a decent copy of this photograph and enlarges this area it is clear that this is a spent cartridge case, not a loaded cartridge. I am attaching a link below; go to this image from the Texas Portal website, click on it and then use the "zoom" function to expand the image as large as you like; then look at cartridge "A". Link: https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49604/?q=Texas%20School%20Book%20Depository FWIW Gary Gary, Thanks. You're right. That zoom feature is pretty neat, isn't it? Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick McTague Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 5 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said: One of Oswald's three bullets entered the President's head near the bottom of his skull, and also four inches higher. A second bullet entered the base of the President's neck, and also several inches lower in his back, exited an entrance wound in his throat, struck Governor Connally's back, broke a rib bone, exited his chest, broke two bones in his right wrist, became embedded in thigh bone, and finally fell out onto the gurney of a little boy in Parkland Memorial Hospital. A third bullet missed entirely, striking a tree limb which separated the jacket from the lead core, and the core traveled on to strike pavement near James Tague, a motorcade bystander who was slightly wounded by concrete splatter. (I'm actually a little uneasy about this explanation, but if Gerald Posner claims its true, who am I to argue?) Now here's where you have to pay close attention.... 1 Jim, It is important to note that the round that entered JFK's head was a frangible round, designed to disintegrate on penetration. The other 2 were full metal jacket rounds, designed to penetrate, maintain shape, and continue penetrating. I just can't get past the improbability of a single assassin loading 2 types of ammunition in the partially loaded clip. Thoughts? Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Bulman Posted March 24, 2018 Share Posted March 24, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, Rick McTague said: Jim, It is important to note that the round that entered JFK's head was a frangible round, designed to disintegrate on penetration. The other 2 were full metal jacket rounds, designed to penetrate, maintain shape, and continue penetrating. I just can't get past the improbability of a single assassin loading 2 types of ammunition in the partially loaded clip. Thoughts? Rick Like I think Jim Hargrove is unknowingly alluded to, one of the frangible rounds went in the left side of JFK's temple. If you believe any of the autopsy x-rays have any validity or use, one of them shows a spray of particles, yes unfortunately, back and to the left. But the back wound could have been as well. Only able to stick your pinky finger in an inch? No chest x-rays. Sorry to go off topic. Edited March 24, 2018 by Ron Bulman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Bulman Posted March 24, 2018 Share Posted March 24, 2018 To get back on topic, I'm stumped. I looked in Crossfire, Accessories After the Fact, High Treason and couple of others to support what I thought I'd read but found nothing. How can we know for sure? Something about only two shells? The dented shell couldn't have been fired that day? Shells picked up then put back for pictures later? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted March 24, 2018 Share Posted March 24, 2018 I spent a lot of time on this one and concluded the official story on this one is correct. The fire truck out the window in the shell casing photos proves the evidence photos were taken shortly after the shooting, and not that evening or the next day. And the boxes match the positions of the boxes in the Alyea film, taken before the arrival of Day and Studebaker. So, yeah, the photos taken by Day and Studebaker appear to be legit, which is as expected when one considers that all the early witnesses said they saw three shells. My one concern is that Alyea claimed Fritz picked up the shells, and his film does in my opinion show Fritz kneel down and pick up the third western-most shell. Well, this opens up the possibility Fritz took this shell with him, and that the third shell in the Day and Studebaker photos was a throw-down, of sorts. I spent a lot of time looking at this third shell and comparing it to various kinds of shells and could never convince myself it matched the other shells. But neither could I convince myself it did not match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted March 24, 2018 Author Share Posted March 24, 2018 (edited) How does one explain the written exhibits that say there were two shells found? There is one by FBI agent Doyle Williams on 11/22/63. Also, there is an envelope that contains pics of the exhibits shot by DPD for the FBI and it says there were two bullet hulls and one live round of 6.5 ammunition found on the sixth floor. That was made out on the same day. The next day, Hoover signed a report to Curry which identified two cartridge cases and one live round which were turned over to Drain. No fingerprints were found. Five days later, on the 27th, a third empty case was allegedly given to Drain. Drain wrote that he got it from Day. What is notable about this is that the third case was CE 543. Which today, I am convinced not only was not fired in Dealey Plaza, but could not have been fired. TInk Thompson says that this case had been fired previously. The FBI now went for a three bullet scenario with no Single Bullet Theory. I am sure that people here are familiar with the photos in the Twyman book which appear to show just two shells and one live round. So its not just the written reports. The late Vincent Bugliosi got out of this one by saying Fritz picked up one of the shells for testing. Which is simply goofy. No lab had better testing that the FBI at the time. And he refuses to admit that CE 543 is a dead giveaway as to a frame up. Edited March 24, 2018 by James DiEugenio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Von Pein Posted March 24, 2018 Share Posted March 24, 2018 (edited) James DiEugenio said: I am sure that people here are familiar with the photos in the Twyman book which appear to show just two shells and one live round. So it's not just the written reports. The late Vincent Bugliosi got out of this one by saying Fritz picked up one of the shells for testing. Which is simply goofy. No lab had better testing [than] the FBI at the time. "Goofy" or not, Captain Fritz did retain one of the 3 shells in his office at the DPD. Here's exactly what Captain Fritz said in an affidavit dated June 9, 1964: --Quote On:-- "Three spent rifle hulls were found under the window in the southeast corner of the 6th floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building, Dallas, Texas, on the afternoon of November 22, 1963. When the officers called me to this window, I asked them not to move the shells nor touch them until Lt. Day of the Dallas Police Department could make pictures of the hulls showing where they fell after being ejected from the rifle. After the pictures were made, Detective R. M. Sims of the Homicide Bureau, who was assisting in the search of building, brought the three empty hulls to my office. These were delivered to me in my office at the police headquarters. I kept the hulls in an envelope in my possession and later turned them over to C. N. Dhority of the Homicide Bureau and instructed him to take them to Lt. Day of the Identification Bureau. I told Detective Dhority that after these hulls were checked for prints to leave two of them to be delivered to the FBI and to bring one of them to my office to be used for comparison tests here in the office, as we were trying to find where the cartridges had been bought. When Detective Dhority returned from the Identification Bureau, he returned the one empty hull which I kept in my possession. Several days later, I believe on the night of November 27, Vince Drain of the FBI called me at home about one o'clock in the morning and said that the Commission wanted the other empty hull and a notebook that belonged to Oswald [sic; this is an error on Fritz' part, because the "Commission" didn't even exist as of 11/27; Fritz probably meant to say "the FBI" instead of "the Commission"]. I came to the office and delivered these things to the FBI. We have Mr. James P. Hosty's receipt for these items in our report." -- J.W. Fritz; 6/9/64 --End Quote.-- So, Jim, is it your opinion that the above affidavit, which is completely reasonable and sensible in every respect, is nothing but a pack of lies? Edited March 24, 2018 by David Von Pein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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