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5'10"


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I had been collecting some notes on the 5'10" individual that shows up from time to time.

 

1) CIA cable Lee Henry Oswald is 5'10” weighing 165 lbs, light brown, wavy hair with blue eyes.

October 10, 1963

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=110013&relPageId=2

 

 

2) CIA cable to Dep't of State, FBI and Dep't of Navy

October 1, 1963

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/157-10014-10242.pdf

p. 436 “Probably identical to Lee Henry Oswald” 5'10”, light brown wavy hair, blue eyes.

 

3) Stringfellow Cable

In this referenced cable, Harvey Lee Oswald was described as 5'10" tall, 165 lbs, with light brown hair and blue eyes.

https://ia601309.us.archive.org/22/items/nsia-ArmyIntelligenceJFK/nsia-ArmyIntelligenceJFK/AI%20JFK%2001.pdf

 

The initial description broadcast over the DPD radio was for a suspect 5"10" tall weighing 165 lbs and nobody knows where that description came from

 

4) DPD Sergeant Gerald Hill: We went on to the scene of the shooting where we found a squad car parked against the right or the south curb on 10th Street, with a pool of blood on the left-hand side of it near the side of the car.
Tippit had already been removed. The first man that came up to me, he said, "The man that shot him was a white male about 5'10", weighing 160 to 170 pounds, had on a Jacket and a pair of dark trousers, and brown bushy hair." http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hill_gl.htm

 

5) Report of John Fain (FBI Dallas) dated July 3, 1961. CE 980 p. 388

1 copy to ONI New Orleans

On April 28, 1960 Mrs. Marguerite Oswald provided the following physical description of Lee Harvey Oswald:

5'10" tall, 165 lbs light brown wavy hair, blue eyes.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=399&tab=page


 

Posted by Bill Simpich in the Education Forum 10/11/2009

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/4023-lee-henry-oswald/


 

A final anomaly brought out in "Popov's Mole" is a crucial key to the assassination itself

A false physical description of Oswald as 5 feet, 10 inches and 165 pounds can be found in three crucial places:

1. This description originated in a memo written by FBI Special John Fain in May, 1960, supposedly based from talking to Oswald’s mother, although Oswald’s weight never varied any more than 130-150 and was 150 at the time of his death. LHO's height was generally described as 5 feet, 9 inches, though the Marines reported Oswald as 5 feet, 11 inches.

LHO seemed to favor the 5'11" description when dealing with government officials, for some still-unknown purpose.

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/w...eport_0084b.htm

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...mp;relPageId=10

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...bsPageId=792581

2. “The last known pre-assassination use of this physical description was in the second of the twin October 10 messages was a cable sent two hours later to the station in Mexico: "Oswald is five feet ten inches, one hundred sixty five pounds..." Although Egerter checked it for accuracy, "accuracy" is not the issue. The issue is how this particular description was chosen from all the descriptions out there.”

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=157

3. Finally, the broadcast over the Dallas police radio fifteen minutes after JFK was shot was that the unidentified assassin was “5/10, 165 pounds...”

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/w...Vol23_0438a.htm

“Although confused commentators have claimed that Howard Brennan was the source, it's well documented that an "unidentified citizen" gave the above description to Inspector Sawyer after he saw someone looking like Oswald running from the Book Depository immediately after the assassination. The citizen did not comply with the sheriff's request to come to the office later to fill out a report, and Hoover said that the "sheriff's office can locate no record on this citizen".

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=109

Even after the Warren Report was published, Hoover responded to general counsel J. Lee Rankin's request that according to the Dallas police the information came from an ‘unidentified citizen’.” (There is no record of Hoover re-contacting the sheriff's department).

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...mp;relPageId=72 -

Hoover says in November of 1964 that on January 14, 1964 the Dallas Police Department had provided this description based on the description, provided by an unknown citizen, of a man seen running from the Texas School Book Depository after the assassination.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=109


 

Huh? What is that all about?

also see Gerald McKnight's (Breach of Trust, p. 109)

Rankin repeated his request to Hoover for more information on this incident, but apparently to no avail.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...mp;relPageId=33

 

Please feel free to add to this list. It's a work in progress.

 

Steve Thomas


 

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Steve Thomas,

I'm not pulling your leg.  Look at Officer Marion Baker's statement of 11-22-63.  His statement has a description that is pretty much the same as others and could be the source if he had a hand radio with him.  I don't think so but, there is a possibility.  I don't think many people have read Baker's statement in comparison to Roy Truly's statements.  They diverge substantially in who they saw and where they saw someone.  That's why in an earlier post I called Baker a quad-x. 

I don't know why the worded was edited.  It is a fine and dandy English language word that describes someone who is untruthful.  I need to go back and study TV euphemisms to be politically correct.  Marion Baker perhaps lacked clarity.

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2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Did Baker have a radio on his cycle?

Jim,

 

Marrion Baker's call sign was 134. That puts him the same category as Hargis (136), Brewer (137) and Jackson (138)

They were all solo motorcyclists in the Traffic Division's 7:00AM to 3:00PM shift.

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf

(page 18 of the pdf file)

 

If you look at a copy of Altgens 6, it looks like they did have an antenna right behind their seat.

This is a remarkably clear copy of Altgens 6, but it takes a while to load.

http://www.jfksouthknollgunman.com/index.php/01-2-altgens/

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

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11 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

5) Report of John Fain (FBI Dallas) dated July 3, 1961. CE 980 p. 388

1 copy to ONI New Orleans

On April 28, 1960 Mrs. Marguerite Oswald provided the following physical description of Lee Harvey Oswald:

5'10" tall, 165 lbs light brown wavy hair, blue eyes

Hi Steve,

The provenance of the 5'10", 165# Oswald begins with FBI agent John Fain's report, as far as I can tell...right?   

Fain says this is how Marguerite Oswald describes her son.   IMO it's important to pinpoint the first instance of this description because it can function as a Blue Dye Operation for us  (which as an information pathology technique is made palatable and easy to understand in the movie Allied.)

However, IMO not every node in this chain of information is necessarily an assassination conspirator.   Even so, we can benefit from understanding how this particular version of Oswald's height and weight became a broadcast on 22NOV63 as -nominally- one of the ways the police were able to capture Oswald.

 

Jason

 

 

 

Edited by Jason Ward
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The marine discharge docs list him as 71" 150lbs.  1959 age 20...

Rose Autopsy 5 9.5. 

Split the 5 9 and 5 11 down the middle to apply to either....

Our Oswald was never 165... Not soaking wet holding 20 lbs...

Steve, Where was Mrs O contacted in 1960? Where did she live and work?

Edit... In Russia in 1960, how big is Oswald?   5 7 it seems. And 140.   

Could not be Same boy 

Edited by David Josephs
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31 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Steve, Where was Mrs O contacted in 1960? Where did she live and work?

David,

 

Fain's report is dated 7/3/61.

In his report, he says that information is predicated on an interview of Maguerite conducted April 28, 1960. The paragraph reads, "where she is currently residing..."

at 1111Herring Ave. in Waco, TX., where she was employed at the Methodist Orphan's Home.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=400&tab=page

 

The way the paragraph reads, I can't tell if that 's "currently residing" as of July 3, 1961, or "currently residing" as of April 28, 1960.

 

Steve Thomas

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I hypothesize that the 30OCT63 CIA cable from Mexico City is sourced from [perhaps directly reading] the 28APR60 FBI interview with Marguerite Oswald by agent Fain, submitted in a 3JUL61 FBI report. 

Paragraph 2 of the 1963 CIA cable is virtually identical to a paragraph found in the 1961 Fain report. In other words, doesn't this suggest the FBI is the source of the Oswald background information provided in the CIA cable?

 

1. 30OCT63 CIA Cable Mexico City to Langley - note 4 elements:

a. 5"10

b. 165 pounds

c. light brown wavy hair

d. FEB61 Oswald quote from letter to US embassy in Moscow, " ...we could come to some agreement concerning the dropping of any legal proceedings against me..."

 

CIA_30_OCT_mex_lho1.png

CIA_30_OCT_mex_lho2.png

 

 

2. 3JUL61 FBI report from interview with Marguerite Oswald conducted on 28APR60 - note 4 elements:

a. 5"10

b. 165 pounds

c. light brown wavy hair

d. FEB61 Oswald quote from letter to US embassy in Moscow, " ...we could come to some agreement concerning the dropping of any legal proceedings against me..."

 

Fain_report_1.png

 

Fain_report_2_165_pounds_LHO.png

{...several pages later...}

Fain_report_3_agmt.png

note marginalia vertical line highlight of this paragraph ... is it in the original document?

this paragraph is almost copied verbatim into the CIA 30OCT63 Mexico City cable

 

Edited by Jason Ward
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Slight hitch.... 

CE 231 is an April 6, 1960 letter to Albert Schweitzer College from Marge with return address of 1410 Hurley in Ft Worth c/o Velma Marlin... The April 28 return letter was returned, no forwarding address.

Agent Fain was living around the corner from 2220 Thomas in Ft. Worth at 1727 Thomas Place, by Stripling Jr High....

On May 12 SA Fain sent a report of his interview with "Marguerite" to FBI 
Headquarters in Washington, DC and wrote, "Since Oswald had his birth certificate in 
his possession, another individual may have assumed his identity."27

After receiving the Airtel from New York,]. Edgar Hoover sent a memo to the 
Office of Security at the State Department. Hoover's June 3, 1960 memo states, "Your 
attention is directed to the report of SA John W. Fa in, Dallas, Texas, dated May 12, 1960, 
entitled 'Funds transmitted to Residents of Russia .... .In that report you will note that 
subject's mother, Mrs. Marguerite C. Oswald, Fort Worth, TX (Fain's report listed her 
address as 1111 Herring Ave. Waco, IX), advised that she recently received a letter ad-
dressed to her son from the Albert Schweitzer College in Switzerland indicating that Lee 
Oswald was expected at the college on April 20, 1960. She stated subject had taken his 
birth certificate with him when he left home ..... Since there is a possibility that an im-
poster is using Oswald's birth certificate, any current information the Department of 
State may have concerning subject will be appreciated. "'31 60-05

27 National Archives, SSCIA 157-10004-10002; FBI Airtel from SAC, New York to Director, FBI 5/23/60. 
31 SSCIA 157-10011-10156; memo from Hoover to State Department, 6/3/60.

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3 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Well, if Baker had a radio, then might not he be the source?

 

Where did the jacket and rifle come from?  Everyone likes to cut that part out.

My post vanished...   Lee wore a medium jacket...  The rifle is an entire essay...

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4 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Was Fain Army Intel?

David,

 

Not necessarily, but he could have been a member of the LEIU.

 

Quoting from Peter Dale Scott's Deep Politics & the Death of JFK, Chuck (Schwartz?) posts:


 

“Federal Bureau of Investigation agents, military intelligence teams from the army, navy, and air force, and other federal agencies with investigators operating from headquarters here…The job of [Revill's] intelligence section in Capt. Gannaway's bureau…requires the closest cooperation with these other governmental agencies gathering intelligence on subversive groups suspected of espionage…With membership in a national police intelligence organization known as LEIU (Law Enforcement Intelligence Units) the local officers are able to get information almost immediately on suspected subversives when they move into Dallas. This information is exchanged by police units as these persons move from city to city…Employees in [industrial] plants are carefully screened by security conscious personnel officers, and in key jobs are given strict government security clearances. Industry is taking great strides to upgrade security practices. One such group in this area is the American Society for Industrial Security.”


“ One can see how easily a false legend for Oswald could have been generated in the shared files of this coordinated security campaign, involving the Dallas SSB, FBI, military intelligence, and the American Society for Industrial Security. Such a centralized file system could be the source for the recurring (and unexplained) inversion of Oswald's name, as Harvey Lee Oswald, in the files of the Dallas police (e.g., 19 WH 438, 24 WH 259), FBI (e.g., 23 WH 207, 23 WH 373), Secret Service (16 WH 721, 748), army intelligence, and navy intelligence.”

 

See also:


“America's Secret Police Network”, by George O'Toole. Penthouse Magazine, December, 1976. pp. 77-82, cont'd on pp. 194-206.

https://fightgangstalking.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/americas-secret-police-network1.pdf


“The LEIU links the intelligence squads of almost every major police force in the United States and Canada.... The organization (LEIU) forms a vast network of intelligence units that exchange dossiers and conduct investigations on a reciprocal basis.”

 

The LEIU was formed in 1956. Look at page 5 of O'Toole's article about the definition of an "affiliate member".

 

In those early hours of November 22nd, both Fritz and Curry were telling newsmen that they had never heard of Oswald and had no idea he was living in Dallas, but some unidentified policeman did, and told Fritz out in the hall about Oswald living at 1026 N. Beckley before Fritz began his interrogation. Could that unidentified officer have been a member of the LEIU?

 

Steve Thomas

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11 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

David,

 

Not necessarily, but he could have been a member of the LEIU.

 

Quoting from Peter Dale Scott's Deep Politics & the Death of JFK, Chuck (Schwartz?) posts:


 

“Federal Bureau of Investigation agents, military intelligence teams from the army, navy, and air force, and other federal agencies with investigators operating from headquarters here…The job of [Revill's] intelligence section in Capt. Gannaway's bureau…requires the closest cooperation with these other governmental agencies gathering intelligence on subversive groups suspected of espionage…With membership in a national police intelligence organization known as LEIU (Law Enforcement Intelligence Units) the local officers are able to get information almost immediately on suspected subversives when they move into Dallas. This information is exchanged by police units as these persons move from city to city…Employees in [industrial] plants are carefully screened by security conscious personnel officers, and in key jobs are given strict government security clearances. Industry is taking great strides to upgrade security practices. One such group in this area is the American Society for Industrial Security.”


“ One can see how easily a false legend for Oswald could have been generated in the shared files of this coordinated security campaign, involving the Dallas SSB, FBI, military intelligence, and the American Society for Industrial Security. Such a centralized file system could be the source for the recurring (and unexplained) inversion of Oswald's name, as Harvey Lee Oswald, in the files of the Dallas police (e.g., 19 WH 438, 24 WH 259), FBI (e.g., 23 WH 207, 23 WH 373), Secret Service (16 WH 721, 748), army intelligence, and navy intelligence.”

 

As I wrote to Paul Brancato in the thread on Harvey Lee Oswald back in February of 2017:

Paul,

 

"I've been approaching this as if Harvey Lee Oswald was a real person.

That may not strictly be the case however. As I said to David Joseph, I think the Harvey Lee Oswald persona was created long before we knew it to be, but by who or why or how, I don't know. And, it, or may not, be connected to John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee. I think these are two separate issues.

I think this persona, or dossier was created and shared across all spectrums of the intelligence community. You have it showing up in FBI files, CIA, Secret Service, Army and Navy Intelligence, Dallas Police Criminal Intelligence. It would explain a lot, like Revill's list of TSBD employees."

 

Steve Thomas

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