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Moved here from Andrej's thread:


 

Andrej,



Please answer the following question:

Did you give your "Prayer Man" such a freakishly long right leg in your graphic simply so "he" would not have to significantly tilt the axis of his body in the general direction of the camera, and therefore could "appear" to be (compared to 6' 1.5" 6' 0.5" Frazier in Darnell) an Oswald-like 5' 9.5" dude who just happened to be uncomfortably and dangerously standing with one foot on the top step and the other on the landing?

In other words, wasn't that the only way you could roughly depict "Prayer Man" (as "he" appears in both Wiegman and Darnell) in such a way that might convince EF members and guests that "Prayer Man" was, indeed, Lee Harvey Oswald?

Why did you give "Prayer Man" such a freakishly long and disproportionate-to-his-torso right leg, Andrej?  So "Oswald" wouldn't have to awkwardly and very noticeably "dip" his right shoulder towards the viewer in order to compensate for the top step's 7-inch "rise"?

zoom_sanders_measure.jpg?w=768&h=730

 


In short (pardon my unintentional pun), isn't it more reasonable to assume that the Wiegman and Darnell "Prayer Man" was a shorter-than-Oswald-person who was standing much more naturally with both feet on the landing, but close to that front step?

And, in fact, that Sean Murphy's "Prayer Man" could very well have been the "Sarah" whom Buell Wesley Frazier, in a 2013 interview, said turned towards him (and he towards her) right after the assassination, as is obvious that Murphy's "Prayer Man" has already done during the 30-second-long interval between the end of the Wiegman clip and the beginning of Couch-Darnell?


--  TG

Edited by Thomas Graves
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46 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

Moved here from Andrej's thread:


 

Andrej,



Please answer the following question:

Did you give your "Prayer Man" such a freakishly long right leg in your graphic simply so "he" would not have to significantly tilt the axis of his body in the general direction of the camera, and therefore could "appear" to be (compared to 6' 1.5" Frazier in Darnell) an Oswald-like 5' 9.5" dude who just happened to be uncomfortably and dangerously standing with one foot on the top step and the other on the landing?

In other words, wasn't that the only way you could roughly depict "Prayer Man" (as "he" appears in both Wiegman and Darnell) in such a way that might convince EF members and guests that "Prayer Man" was, indeed, Lee Harvey Oswald?

Why did you give "Prayer Man" such a freakishly long and disproportionate-to-his-torso right leg, Andrej?  So "Oswald" wouldn't have to awkwardly and very noticeably "dip" his right shoulder towards the viewer in order to compensate for the top step's 7-inch "rise"?

zoom_sanders_measure.jpg?w=768&h=730

 


In short (pardon my unintentional pun), isn't it more reasonable to assume that the Wiegman and Darnell "Prayer Man" was a shorter-than-Oswald-person who was standing much more naturally with both feet on the landing, but close to that front step?

And, in fact, that Sean Murphy's "Prayer Man" could very well have been the "Sarah" whom Buell Wesley Frazier, in a 2013 interview, said turned towards him (and he towards her) right after the assassination, as is obvious that Murphy's "Prayer Man" has already done during the 30-second-long interval between the end of the Wiegman clip and the beginning of Couch-Darnell?


--  TG

 

 

 

 

Andrej, I just want to say that it is no mark against you if you refuse to reply to Tommy on these matters. Your work is appreciated and it is clear that you have much integrity. Keep up the good work.

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Thomas:

I can have a look at the leg length problem in my next version of any work which will include Prayer Man.  People differ in the height of their inseam and my model appears to have the inseam high. I paid some attention to it, but in order to measure inseam height, one needs to measure besides the body length also the length of the inner leg from the sole of the foot to the perineum. This cannot be achieved from Lee Harvey Oswald photographs in which he wears loose pants, and in no case from Darnell still because it is blurred and does not show full legs. The leg-to-body ration varies from 45% to 50% in the population, and my model has a proportion which goes to the higher end of the range.

The exact posture of Prayer Man's legs is uncertain just because they cannot be seen reliably in any of the frames. So, I had to design a leg posture myself, and actually I have suggested two leg postures, one in 2016 and one more recently. I certainly can test another leg posture which may possibly appeal better to you. The Darnell model included 15 human figures and I spent time mostly with the new figures.

The location of Prayer Man with one foot down is determined not by his feet but by the relation of his figure to different landmarks in the doorway. These relationships dictate Prayer Man location, and there is just no wiggling room there. Prayer Man could not stand with both his feet on the top landing (in Darnell) because he would not fit the shape of Prayer Man body (being too tiny and having arms located higher compared to what is seen in Darnell) and more importantly, his right elbow would be too far from the edge of the red brick column. Of course, I have tested this variation in my pilot analyses, and will show it in the next work which will address Prayer Man's location and body height.

As per Mrs. Stanton=Prayer Man, I have explained already that there were two women on the top landing, Mrs. Stanton and Mrs. Sanders. I showed two new figures with body heights of females in another thread. One lady stood close to the glass door in the eastern part of the doorway, just as Mrs. Sanders said. The other lady was in the cluster of people comprising Mr. Shelley, Mr. Lovelady, Mr. Williams and Mrs. Sanders (further back). This is why a white spot corresponding to a partial head of Mrs. Stanton is seen between Mr. Lovelady and Mr. Shelley. Of course, it requires further analysis to check if this blob was indeed a part of the head. And this is what I am working on currently. I appreciate your interest in Prayer Man, however, I cannot follow and respond to your questions because I am working, as the time allows me, on a different problem. If my analysis confirms the presence of a human figure in Altgens6, it would be Mrs. Stanton. Both women appear in one and the same frame of Darnell in which also Prayer Man is seen. Therefore, I concluded that Prayer Man could not be Mrs. Stanton.

While I see no substantiation for your Prayer Man=Stanton hypothesis, I can live with it and do not feel urged to ask you questions - there would be no answers anyway.

So, again I have to excuse myself from responding to the same questions again and again in your new thread because it leads nowhere. I do not think you would change your mind, and I am not changing my mind either. Continuation of this discussion is futile. I will continue working on improving the 3D doorway scenes and you will continue questioning my work and my integrity. 

 

Edited by Andrej Stancak
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On 4/27/2018 at 6:52 PM, Thomas Graves said:

Did you give your "Prayer Man" such a freakishly long right leg in your graphic simply so "he" would not have to significantly tilt the axis of his body in the general direction of the camera, and therefore could "appear" to be (compared to 6' 1.5" Frazier in Darnell) an Oswald-like 5' 9.5" dude who just happened to be uncomfortably and dangerously standing with one foot on the top step and the other on the landing?

I don't know if any of this means anything but over on the Duncan M. forum someone found a black guy (BG) photo - he's standing on steps so I took this and inserted it into the PM cartoon.  I made sure his head was the same size as the other cartoon characters. You can see that based on the grid lines I added proportions are the same which means BG is the correct size.  I also took the suit and tie guy and made an extra one of him and put him in there so all three are the same human proportions:

cartoon1.jpg

Then I put BG's leg down on that 2nd step s if it's down there with the PM character.  Then, for fun, I put suit and tie guy down there too just to see what would happen.  BG barely fits and his hind leg on the top doesn't quite fit up there - it looks like it's touching the edge of the top step vs. being up there enough so it wouldn't touch the edge.

Amazingly, BG and suit and tie guy appear to be physically smaller than the PM character judging by their respective head tops once you move them down one step.

cartoon2.jpg

One final thing I did was line up the crotches of BG and suit and tie guy with the PM character's crotch.  You can see what happens when they're lined up below.

cartoon3.jpg

So what does it all mean?  It does appear that that leaping leg of PM's is too long. I realize that putting 2D images inside of a 3D cartoon is not 100% scientific but the above images do show some interesting results.

More importantly, though, for me, is that I STILL can't wrap my head around the idea that the planners would let their patsy be roaming around outside risking being photographed when he's supposed to be up in the 6th floor sniper's nest.
 

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I can understand some reservation to my suggestion that Prayer Man stood with his right feet on the second step. Maybe the leg posture was not the best I could do, however, I believe that this is the most plausible explanation of Prayer Man's location&posture and a much better one than having a tiny Prayer Man (woman) on the top landing. I have constructed a new version of Prayer Man's leg which appears more natural than the previous posture, however, it is up to forum members to be the judges. However, I have also set up a short Prayer Man and highlighted the problems which this solution entails.

First, the Darnell frame with both solutions. Each Prayer Man figure was prepared in Poser 11.1. It is not imported into Sketchup yet because this step is lengthy I am doing it only when I think that a pilot solution is finalised. The left-hand image is the Darnell doorway with a tall Prayer Man, and the right-hand image is the short Prayer Man in Darnell. 

fullok_30.jpg?w=246&h=246&crop=1fullshort_60.jpg?w=246&h=246&crop=1

Here are the detailed views of both solutions. First the one-foot-down solution. I have shortened both legs to perhaps a more natural leg-to-body ratio:

ok3.jpg?w=1700

 

And the short Prayer Man solution:

short3.jpg?w=1700

Edited by Andrej Stancak
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In the next, I have overlayed both Prayer Men onto Darnell still with 30%, 50%, 70%, 80% and 90% blending. The top row is the solution with a tall Prayer Man, and the bottom row shows the same for a short Prayer Man. The overlays of 50% and 70% (the second and third columns from the left) are perhaps the most informative as to the preference of each solution. Obviously, the short Prayer Man cannot account for the left thigh which is visible in the tall Prayer Man solution but not in the short Prayer Man solution.  Please note the angle of the right forearm. Since the short Prayer Man has shorter arms than the tall Prayer Man, he can have his right hand overlapped with the white blob but at the cost of having his forearm relatively horizontal compared to the tall Prayer Man. The tall Prayer Man reaches the white blob from a bottom-up angle. Of course, the short Prayer Man, since he has his elbow-to-elbow distance short, will aslo show a white, unexplained spot at the elbow area. In contrast, the tall Prayer Man's elbow fills Darnell' Prayer Man's elbow just fine.

 

alloverlays.jpg?w=1700

 

Here is a summary of the points which favor the tall Prayer Man standing with his right foot on the second step: 1. The right elbow of short Prayer Man cannot fill the Darnell Prayer Man's elbow because a short person has also shorter arms than a tall person. 2. The right forearm in the tall Prayer Man has the correct angle matching Darnell's Prayer Man, unlike the short Prayer Man's forearm. The short Prayer Man has his forearm flat because of a shorter humerus compared to a tall Prayer Man. Thus, a short Prayer man can have his right hand overlapped with the light colored spot, however, this is achieved from a comparatively more horizontal direction. 3. The left thigh and knee of the short and upright standing Prayer Man cannot explain Prayer Man's left thigh in Darnell.

 

wrong2.jpg?w=1618

 

Edited by Andrej Stancak
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https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,562.100.html

Another blistering critique of Andrej's cartoon.  People DO NOT stand that way Andrej.  You're trying to fit a straight oversized leg in a round hole here. It's as simple as that. And besides this whole "PM is Oswald" goes against every single piece of plausibility and realism. Why would the murderers allow their patsy to even be out there during this crucial period, after planning this murder for the last 6-7 months? All of the groundwork that was laid down, only to see it go up in smoke when the victim of the murder enters the kill zone and the patsy wandering around outside instead of hiding himself up in the lunchroom.

OSWALD: So what am I supposed to do?
PLANNERS: Well, don't you know? Go right on out the front door and catch a glimpse of the President. And take a few photos while they go by.
OSWALD: OK.

HAHAHAHA!!!

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6 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

You're trying to fit a straight oversized leg in a round hole here

The leg-to-body ratio in the mannequin I showed for the overlay study (and which I am not transporting into Sketchup) is 47% which is the middle of the normal range 45-50%. Of course, people can and do stand this way if they wish so. Please try it yourself. It would be actually unpleasant to stand with both legs straight and on the top landing as shown in my recent post because the person on the top landing would have to bend considerably towards his right in order to have his head aligned with the vertical pole of the aluminum door frame. 

However, you apparently did not spot the differences between the two postures which make your top landing-both legs straight possibility very unlikely.

Are you now a new Saruman?

Edited by Andrej Stancak
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16 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,562.100.html

Another blistering critique of Andrej's cartoon.  People DO NOT stand that way Andrej.  You're trying to fit a straight oversized leg in a round hole here. It's as simple as that. And besides this whole "PM is Oswald" goes against every single piece of plausibility and realism. Why would the murderers allow their patsy to even be out there during this crucial period, after planning this murder for the last 6-7 months? All of the groundwork that was laid down, only to see it go up in smoke when the victim of the murder enters the kill zone and the patsy wandering around outside instead of hiding himself up in the lunchroom.

OSWALD: So what am I supposed to do?
PLANNERS: Well, don't you know? Go right on out the front door and catch a glimpse of the President. And take a few photos while they go by.
OSWALD: OK.

HAHAHAHA!!!

I fail to see the value of Brian Doyle's observations which amount to absolutely nothing. There is no reason to bring disinfo like that to EF, I mean he did not get banned here for nothing right? 

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Bart,

Sorry to contradict you but Brian Doyle's exclusion from the EF had nothing to do with disinfo. In the land of disinfo, his was by no means the most ludicrous we have seen.

Brian was argumentaive and totally disregarded the rules. He was quite happy to ignore requests we made of him while - at the same time - expecting and demanding that the admin team answer in detail every grouse he had about us.

In the end it was his attitude that tipped the ballance. Disinfo may have played a part in his contributions on the EF but it had nothing to do with his removal.

James

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One more attempt to achieve the optimal body proportions for Prayer Man. This time, I have abandoned Poser 11.1 recommendations and turned to the picture of Lee Harvey Oswald taken during his arrest by the New Orleans police in July, 1963. The right picture shows Lee Harvey Oswald from a rare frontal view. I have added lights to this picture to be able to see better his inseam and his knees. The left panel is the adjusted Poser mannequin named James. It is possible to adjust body proportions interactively and so I took the default James with proportions of an average man and adjusted them to fit Lee Harvey Oswald's body. Interestingly, Lee Harvey Oswald has long arms, I had to extend them by 10% compared to a standard male figure. The horizontal lines cross both figures at homologous body parts. Notably, the inseams in both figure, but also the waist and knees, are at the same levels in both figures.

 

pm_nola_lines.jpg?w=768

 

In the next, the mannequin with body posture of Lee Harvey Oswald was adjusted to match Prayer Man's posture in Darnell, and the resulting figure was overlaid onto Darnell's Prayer Man with blending coefficients 0, 20, 40 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 95 and 100%. A 100% overlay means the original Darnell picture with no traces of Poser mannequin. The two red lines indicate the edges of the top landing and the second step.

The result exceeded any expectations. The overlay appears natural. Thus, it stroke my mind: if the fit of Poser mannequin is better when it has the body proportions of Lee Harvey Oswald than the body proportions of an average man, does it not say that Prayer Man was Lee Harvey Oswald? I use to watch these overlays for couple days before I export into Sketchup for the final fit. If anyone would have a suggestion what could be tweaked in Poser mannequin, please let me know. 

 

pm_nola_all.jpg?w=768

 

 

 

 

Edited by Andrej Stancak
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On 4/27/2018 at 7:47 PM, Michael Clark said:

 

The results do not CONCLUSIVELY make Prayer Man Lee Harvey Oswald. But they certainly make the possibility of Prayer Man being Oswald a lot more likely.

I like your work, Andrej.

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2 hours ago, James R Gordon said:

Bart,

Sorry to contradict you but Brian Doyle's exclusion from the EF had nothing to do with disinfo. In the land of disinfo, his was by no means the most ludicrous we have seen.

Brian was argumentaive and totally disregarded the rules. He was quite happy to ignore requests we made of him while - at the same time - expecting and demanding that the admin team answer in detail every grouse he had about us.

In the end it was his attitude that tipped the ballance. Disinfo may have played a part in his contributions on the EF but it had nothing to do with his removal.

James

James,

I said there was no need to pass on the disnfo he is posting at MacRae's over here. And perhaps my follow up sentence should have been a tad clearer.

With regards your observations about Doyle's banishing you are absolutely right.

Doyle is reading every word here and rants and fibs on a daily basis from his padded cell, better known as the Prayer Woman FB page and I suggest not to go there unless you wish to read countless (!) diatribes against you and other mods / admins of EF/DPF.

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