Who changed the motorcade route?

[Paz Marverde]

1 minute ago, David Josephs said:

LeMay

David,

from the very beginning of Metta's new article, published few days ago, this is my translation:

It’s already happened twice, during my search for the truth about JFK assassination, to have the pleasure of crossing my path with that of other researchers. It occurred with the American Jim DiEugenio, esteemed author, from whom I had the honor to be praised and encouraged. It occurred with the tenacious Canadian John Kowalski, who made it possible for me to compare my documents with a series of collimating data proceeding from the Archives of Canada. It happens again now, with another good US researcher: Linda Minor. Linda has in fact cleverly investigated a too often not adequately debated element of the plot against John Kennedy: that concerning the place from which Lee Oswald, the scapegoat of Dallas, was accused of shooting with a Carcano on November 22, 1963 despite evidence to the contrary. Comparing United Press dispatches and other material, Linda has emphasized something important about David Harold Byrd’s life. In fact, he was not only the owner of the building at 411 of Elm Street and by Byrd himself leased to the Texas Books Depository, the book company that hired Oswald. Besides this, Byrd was also an ultraconservative entrepreneur, and a friend of some of JFK’s worst enemies like General Curtis LeMay and oilman H. L. Hunt. Byrd, like Hunt, was rich because of his own possessions of oil but, unlike Hunt, also of uranium. However, the control of his empire, namely Byrd Oil which included Byrd Uranium, was then in 1956 passed – Linda has discovered - in the hands of A. M. Abernethy, who in fact became its president, while Byrd remained as Board chairman, as well as the name of Byrd Oil stayed untouched. Well, above Abernethy there was a very important Jew: Arie Ben-Tovim, former Consul of Israel in Montreal from 1949 to 1950, and then in New York from 1951 to 1952. Here, Linda’s study stops. An inevitable halt, since, unlike me, she does not have the exclusive CMC papers I instead own. Papers that reveal the following: Arie Ben-Tovim was also a CMC member. Yes.

 

 

[David Josephs]

3 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Thus, not telling Marina about Presidential motorcade passing the depository is not a surprise.

https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/oswald-on-november-22-1963  

If you have not read this Adrej, you may find it interesting and illuminating related to what Ozzie would have known and how the "PLAN" required to kill JFK was not something Oswald appeared to have given a 2nd thought...

 

To paraphrase it...  Oswald was backed into a time-frame due to the constraints of the conspiracy... the time-frame did not unfold based on Oswald's actions...

So, If Oswald planned to do this... what was the plan?... I then show how there was no prep work done to be in a position to shoot anybody...

The GREAT MYSTERY to me remains why he went home Thursday the 21st... if as reported - to smooth things out with Marina...  IDK.

 

[John Butler]

David,

Sorry for being one.

David Lifton's interpretation of John Connally's expression is interesting.  I usually don't take the other side or make statements that can agree with the Lone Gunners positions.  But, if you look at President Kennedy's expression and block the smile he seems as concerned as Connally.

We don't know what is causing Connally's expression.  He might have a hemorrhoid problem and is dreading the ride in the jump seat for 12 miles. 

 

[David Josephs]

3 minutes ago, Paz Marverde said:

David,

from the very beginning of Metta's new article, published few days ago, this is my translation:

It’s already happened twice, during my search for the truth about JFK assassination, to have the pleasure of crossing my path with that of other researchers. It occurred with the American Jim DiEugenio, esteemed author, from whom I had the honor to be praised and encouraged. It occurred with the tenacious Canadian John Kowalski, who made it possible for me to compare my documents with a series of collimating data proceeding from the Archives of Canada. It happens again now, with another good US researcher: Linda Minor. Linda has in fact cleverly investigated a too often not adequately debated element of the plot against John Kennedy: that concerning the place from which Lee Oswald, the scapegoat of Dallas, was accused of shooting with a Carcano on November 22, 1963 despite evidence to the contrary. Comparing United Press dispatches and other material, Linda has emphasized something important about David Harold Byrd’s life. In fact, he was not only the owner of the building at 411 of Elm Street and by Byrd himself leased to the Texas Books Depository, the book company that hired Oswald. Besides this, Byrd was also an ultraconservative entrepreneur, and a friend of some of JFK’s worst enemies like General Curtis LeMay and oilman H. L. Hunt. Byrd, like Hunt, was rich because of his own possessions of oil but, unlike Hunt, also of uranium. However, the control of his empire, namely Byrd Oil which included Byrd Uranium, was then in 1956 passed – Linda has discovered - in the hands of A. M. Abernethy, who in fact became its president, while Byrd remained as Board chairman, as well as the name of Byrd Oil stayed untouched. Well, above Abernethy there was a very important Jew: Arie Ben-Tovim, former Consul of Israel in Montreal from 1949 to 1950, and then in New York from 1951 to 1952. Here, Linda’s study stops. An inevitable halt, since, unlike me, she does not have the exclusive CMC papers I instead own. Papers that reveal the following: Arie Ben-Tovim was also a CMC member. Yes.

 

 

Fair enough... but "being friends with" and agreeing to cover-up the assassination of the POTUS seems quite the leap...  unless as theorized, the TSBD was running all sorts of contraband and Byrd was somehow involved.

Like blaming Dillion as Sec of Treasury (and friend of Rockefellers)  cause he oversaw the Secret Service...  Is Dillon culpable for the actions of the SS that day... or as Vince clearly shows was it the cast of characters starting with Rowley and Paterni who manipulate the evidence?

Again, thanks for bringing this into the light... definitely adds texture to the situation...

 

[Paz Marverde]

20 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Again, thanks for bringing this into the light... definitely adds texture to the situation...

Welcome. The point is that Byrd and CMC are now connected. Besides, consider that for months before the assassination that building was empty, as a stage waiting for the farse to begin. I understand that "being friends with" is not what you are looking for, but, as you said, for sure Metta's discovery is a very important step towards the truth. Finally: Metta's article is not on LeMay. Thanks again

[Paul Brancato]

2 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Fair enough... but "being friends with" and agreeing to cover-up the assassination of the POTUS seems quite the leap...  unless as theorized, the TSBD was running all sorts of contraband and Byrd was somehow involved.

Like blaming Dillion as Sec of Treasury (and friend of Rockefellers)  cause he oversaw the Secret Service...  Is Dillon culpable for the actions of the SS that day... or as Vince clearly shows was it the cast of characters starting with Rowley and Paterni who manipulate the evidence?

Again, thanks for bringing this into the light... definitely adds texture to the situation...

 

Permindex and CMC were CIA connected. Angleton was friends with several of the Italians, and was also in charge of the Israel desk in CIA and very close, enough to take several vacations in Israel. CMC supplied funds to the right wing generals who tried many times to kill DeGaulle. I’m rereading Our Man in Haiti, a very important book in my opinion. Where I think this all gets really interesting is Phillipe De Vosjoli. Check it out. I’m out of time now - try to write more later, maybe on a different thread. 

[David Von Pein]

On 6/6/2018 at 1:19 PM, David Josephs said:

Prior to Nov 19th the route would be MAIN to STEMMONS as shown by the diagram

On Nov 19th the detail of that non-turn turned into a TSBD corner turn is spelled out - the earlier created map has no turn...

Yeah, David, but the HOUSTON and ELM turns are still nevertheless IMPLIED in all of the various maps that say only MAIN to STEMMONS, including the 11/22 DMN map that CTers love to talk about so much. Because the only proper and legal way to get from MAIN to STEMMONS is....

Via Houston then Elm.

So from that "proper and legal" perspective, the CTers who love to chant "The Motorcade Route Was Changed" are still cooked --- because unless you want to believe that the Secret Service was planning to hop the concrete divider that separates Main from Elm, then the Nov. 22nd DMN newspaper actually DOES, in effect, tell us that the limo was going to have to travel down both Houston Street and Elm Street in that truncated map that was published on the DMN front page on 11/22.

Edited June 8, 2018 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

3 hours ago, John Butler said:

You want to play Dueling Photographs, eh? Okay. My turn....

Mr. Von Pein should have picked better photos to make his point.  Altgens 5 is heavily altered.  He shouldn't have shown the Zapruder frame and contrasted it to the Bronson still frame.  The people who make up the area known as Mannequin Row (those people who are lined up between the R L Thornton (light post) area) and the Stemmons Freeway  are for the most part not in the Bronson still. 

Oh, yes, I forgot about having to factor in the constant refrain coming from Conspiracy Fantasists of: "All Of These Pictures Are Fakes, Therefore I Can't Use Them To Prove My Point".

So sorry.

[David Josephs]

DVP - While I know you'd like to make Mr. butler here the CT poster child due to his other-worldly POV of these photographs...

He's not nor does he represent a single other person's POV who has ever given this a second thought.  In fact, there truly must be something missing from Mr. B's processing power...  the unsupported and unmitigated junk he throws up against the wall here is embarrassing and needs to stop...  maybe a moderator with some level of concern over the reputation of this place and the info which flows from it will do something to silence what is obviously a disruptive clown with nothing better to do....

----------------

In terms of what YOU feel is implied or not is really of no consequence here...

Is it or is it not Secret Service protocol to not drop below 25-35mph and not take a slow turn like Main to Houston or Houston to Elm...

If the route included the turn onto Houston it would be a major breech of safety protocol...

Yet it was done anyway....one of 65,000 things done differently THIS TIME... sheesh.

[Paz Marverde]

1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

Permindex and CMC were CIA connected. Angleton was friends with several of the Italians, and was also in charge of the Israel desk in CIA and very close, enough to take several vacations in Israel. CMC supplied funds to the right wing generals who tried many times to kill DeGaulle. I’m rereading Our Man in Haiti, a very important book in my opinion. Where I think this all gets really interesting is Phillipe De Vosjoli. Check it out. I’m out of time now - try to write more later, maybe on a different thread. 

Liked very much your post. Thank you. About Mellen's book, in Metta's book there's far far more about that France 

[David Lifton]

4 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Mr. Lifton...

Prior to Nov 19th the route would be MAIN to STEMMONS as shown by the diagram

On Nov 19th the detail of that non-turn turned into a TSBD corner turn is spelled out - the earlier created map has no turn...

The order of the motorcade vehicles was changed that morning at Love field...

Now, here is a composite from a different motorcade showing where McHugh WOULD HAVE BEEN if not removed.

I seem to remember a hole in the windshield which would lead back to the south knoll area...

 

 

 

[David Lifton]

4 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Mr. Lifton...

Prior to Nov 19th the route would be MAIN to STEMMONS as shown by the diagram

On Nov 19th the detail of that non-turn turned into a TSBD corner turn is spelled out - the earlier created map has no turn...

The order of the motorcade vehicles was changed that morning at Love field...

Now, here is a composite from a different motorcade showing where McHugh WOULD HAVE BEEN if not removed.

I seem to remember a hole in the windshield which would lead back to the south knoll area...

 

 

David Josephs. please note:

Your post states: "Prior to Nov 19th the route would be MAIN to STEMMONS as shown by the diagram."

But "Main to Stemmons" was not (and is not)  something that is "do-able."

Based on my visit(s)s to Dallas, I believe it to be a fact that--in November 1963] one could not  "go" from Main (directly) onto Stemmons.  One could go from Main, west through the Triple Underpass, proceed on down to Industrial Blvd., turn right onto Industrial, and proceed  (north) on Industrial to the Trade Mart; but. . . if one wished to get there via Stemmons Freeway ["I 35 E", northbound], then one had to enter Stemmons via Elm; which meant (extrapolating "backwards") that if one was on Main, heading west on Main to Dealey Plaza, one had to turn right at Houston (to get to Elm), because the onramp to Stemmons was (and still is) located on Elm, about 100 yards (I think) west of the Triple Underpass. 

DSL

6/6/2018 - 2:40 PM PDT

Postscript to the above (concerning McHugh):  I first spoke with McHugh in November 1967, and in that conversation (as I recall) and despite the fact that most of it concerned Bethesda, the business of the two naval ambulances (i.e., the 'decoy' --see Ch 16 of B.E.), etc., McHugh himself brought up the fact that he was asked --in Dallas --not to sit in front, between the driver and the agent in the passenger-side seat (or area). McHugh told me that the request was made not by the Secret Service by someone else, and its my recollection that that individual was Kenneth O'Donnell.  I will have to check my transcript to verify what I have just written, but that's my present recollection. DSL

Edited June 6, 2018 by David Lifton

[David Josephs]

12 minutes ago, David Lifton said:

But "Main to Stemmons" was not (and is not)  something that is "do-able."

So this tiny curb - for which a simple ramp could be placed to remove the hairpin turn...

This is POTUS and you really believe if the task that day was  "PROTECT POTUS AT ALL COSTS"...

that turn would have never been allowed... 

If you want to convince us that turn was part of the plan all along and the SS was simply derelict in its duty and complicit in the assassination...

I can go along with that...  but to accept THAT TURN as part of the planned motorcade is to invite more folly to this discussion...

[Paz Marverde]

3 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

This is POTUS and you really believe if the task that day was  "PROTECT POTUS AT ALL COSTS"...

that turn would have never been allowed... 

Totally agree

[David Von Pein]

53 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Is it or is it not Secret Service protocol to not drop below 25-35mph and not take a slow turn like Main to Houston or Houston to Elm...?

That's absolute nonsense, David, and you surely must know it. The Secret Service took President Kennedy around HUNDREDS of regular 90-degree turns (like the one from Main to Houston) during JFK's three years in office. Therefore, it's ridiculous to think that the regular Main-to-Houston turn was against "SS protocol". It obviously WASN'T.

As for the sharper Elm turn --- that turn was obviously not a major concern to the Secret Service on 11/22 either---otherwise they WOULDN'T HAVE DONE IT. Period.

Plus, we know the limo totally STOPPED on two occasions during the Dallas parade. And if you think slowing the car to below 35 MPH is a protocol violation (which it obviously is not, since the car was going BELOW that speed for almost the ENTIRE motorcade through Dallas), then what would be a COMPLETE STOP in your view? That must be a horrific "violation", right?

The CTers who scream "IT WAS AGAINST SECRET SERVICE RULES" are merely repeating what is very likely yet another conspiracy-flavored myth. I doubt any such "Rules" even existed in '63. And even if they DID exist "on the books", it's obvious that such "Rules" were not always strictly followed. Nor COULD they be, unless you believe that the SS would be whisking JFK through cities and towns at above 44 MPH (which is the figure I usually hear from the Conspiracy Mongers when this "protocol" topic pops up). And that's just silly. The motorcades through large crowds never went that fast.

 

Quote

If the route included the turn onto Houston it would be a major breech of safety protocol...

That's total B.S.

And you HAVE to know why.

 

Edited June 6, 2018 by David Von Pein