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Tim

(Dates were editied to correct year)

Your simplest of questions is in reality the most difficult. But let me attempt to answer your point (noting that more info is still being sought by myself)

"Example of a simpler issue which I can readily take exception: Do you believe that the U-2 was downed by the Soviets at all? "Yes. The U-2 incident did in fact occur. We can speculate on the details but it did in fact happen, one way or another." But Jim, the question was, do you believe that the U-2 was "downed?" In other words, was it sabotaged before takeoff, as opposed to being shot down by a SAM, which might imply the benefit of inside radar information. If it was not shot down, that implication isn't there."

Starting in 1949 an Army/Rand study began looking at the fesibility of using satelites to gather intelligence information. The study resulted in a three pronged group of programs that became known by the names Corona (Photo recon), Samos (still classified) and Midas (early warning detection of missile lauches using infrared technology). When the program was deemed fesible, Eisenhower took the position that he did not want the United States to be seen as the country that militarized space number one and did not want that group of German scientists (former Nazi's) working at the Armys Redstone Arsenal to be the ones that launched Americas first satelite. Eisenhower wanted plausible civilian cover for these military programs.

After Sputnik and the early Air Force failures, Eisenhower (I'll use this word) nationalized the Army Missile Program and created NASA with Werner Von Braun's team, that had been working for the Army for all these years, leading the way.

Jumping over tons of info.......

On April 1, 1960 the Tiros I satelite was launced. It was a polar orbited weather satelite complete with television cameras and the ability to relay these pictures to earth. The Army team had built this satelite and the rocket it was launced on. It's military value, in press releases, was said to be classified. It is known, for certain, that the Tiros satelites launched after this first one had infrared technology on board.

On May 24, 1960 the first Midas Satelite was launced and put into a sationary orbit over the Soviet Union. It only remained operational for a short period of time but displays that we did, in fact, have the technology to "see" missiles being launched from the ground in the Soviet Union. This series of Midas Satelites had the technology to provide us with an early warning system that would assure the MAD threat could and would be used (no surprize ICBM's).

The Midas Satelite was a hugh piece of equipment for its time and was put into a very high orbit. The Tiros satelite, by comparison was tiny and had a much lower orbit which ment that the area it viewed would be constantly changing as it circled the globe. While preparing the infrared sensing technology for the Midas satelite a much smaller infrared sensor, known as W-17, was built. What it was used for is still classified.

My simple math seems to indicate that the Tiros I satelite may have been in a position to "see" Soviet SAM launches that would be directed at the U-2. Living in Aerospace Valley, I have been unable to get people to respond to my inquiries about the location of this satelite at that point (U-2 incident) in time. I am left wondering if we wanted to see if we could "see" Soviet missile lauches from a place and at a time that we would choose to test our technology before we put a whole series of satelites in space that we would depend upon for our survival.

A legitamate CIA operation, planned for years, known about by very few that would require that necessary information be passed to the Soviets that would tempt them to shoot exactly when and from where we needed them to shot.

With this senario in mind, I believe we may have wanted the U-2 shot down and did everything possible to allow it to happen. The fuel mixture conspiracy theory is another popular thought. Mine fits well with Taylor having advanced knowledge of the plan and a reason why he would have sent his most trusted man, Walker, to pass information to Oswald on Oct. 9, 1959. It also explains why Oswald's work location would be monitored, Nosenko, the Pro Blue Program, why Oswald might have felt quilt for the U-2 incident and Kennedy may have used the strategy that he did in his campaign prior to May 1, 1960 that folded in so well with the U-2 incident after it happened.

It was after I tripped over this coincidence that I first connected Taylor to Walker.

It is since that time that so many pieces of the puzzle seemed to fit together.

Jim Root

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Tim

Your simplest of questions is in reality the most difficult.  But let me attempt to answer your point (noting that more info is still being sought by myself).

Starting in 1949 an Army/Rand study began looking at the fesibility of using satelites to gather intelligence information.  The study resulted in a three-pronged group of programs that became known by the names Corona (Photo recon), Samos (still classified) and Midas (early warning detection of missile lauches using infrared technology)....  On April 1, 1963 the Tiros I satelite was launced....  On May 24, 1963 the first Midas Satelite was launced and put into a sationary orbit over the Soviet Union.  It only remained operational for a short period of time but displays that we did, in fact, have the technology to "see" missiles being launched from the ground in the Soviet Union.  This series of Midas Satelites had the technology to provide us with an early warning system that would assure the MAD threat could and would be used (no surprize ICBM's).

My simple math seems to indicate that the Tiros I satelite may have been in a position to "see"  Soviet SAM launches that would be directed at the U-2....  Jim Root

Jim,

My analysis is that it was the launching and operationalization of the Corona satellite in August, 1961 that allowed for the preemptive first strike targeting of all Soviet nuclear assets, especially the few Soviet ICBMs extant at that time. The window of opportunity was that moment. The later Tiros and Midas systems were geared more to a future nuclear standoff in which parity would be the stabilizing force and defensive early-warning systems would be necessary. But the first one, the Corona, provided the moment the final solutionists had awaited: the perfect opportunity to nip the communist expansionism in the bud. While we had the technological superiority, there was no question that the emerging post-Colonial third world had far more to benefit from alignment with the Soviets. It was thought: now or never. But Kennedy wouldn't play, even when the Missile Crisis opportunity arose....

I believe it was the 1957 Gaither Report, out of the Ford Foundation, that led to the implementation of these missile programs, known to be unnecessary by those few privy to the U-2 findings. It was from that report that the missile gap propaganda arose, despite knowing that Khrushchev's boast of "building missiles like sausages," was false. It served the Military Industrial Complex's purposes very well to play along with Khrushchev's blustering, astronomically and unnecessarily boosting defense spending: Convair and Martin got the Atlas and the Titan contracts, Ramo-Wooldridge obtained systems engineering, North American got the engines contract for the Jupiters (a first strike weapon), and Douglas Aircraft for the contract to build the airframes.

Tim

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Tim

I listed the wrong year for Tiros I and the first Midas Satelite. Should have been April 1, 1960 and May 24, 1960 which brackets the U-2 Incident of May 1, 1960.

The previous post was edited.

Sorry about the mistake.

Jim Root

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Tim

I listed the wrong year for Tiros I and the first Midas Satelite.  Should have been April 1, 1960 and May 24, 1960 which brackets the U-2 Incident of May 1, 1960.

The previous post was edited.

Sorry about the mistake.

Jim Root

Jim

That changes everything; and I still haven't finished my adding and editing to my earlier response. That does make a lot more sense in terms of Tiros I being a SAM firing detection device, and therefore relevant to the usefulness of the U-2. Now you've got me jumping!

Tim

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Tim

Attempting to respond......

Example of a simpler issue which I can readily take exception: Do you believe that the U-2 was downed by the Soviets at all? "Yes. The U-2 incident did in fact occur. We can speculate on the details but it did in fact happen, one way or another." But Jim, the question was, do you believe that the U-2 was "downed?" In other words, was it sabotaged before takeoff, as opposed to being shot down by a SAM, which might imply the benefit of inside radar information. If it was not shot down, that implication isn't there.

See previous edited post that deals with this topic within this thread.

"Do you believe that then Senator Kennedy conspired with Taylor ..."

"No, I believe that the then out of the military General Taylor may have shared information with the Kennedy campaign with the intent of gaining influence (which he did in some way, becoming Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff)." So Jim, it's your take that Taylor's Uncertain Trumpet doctrince of Flexible Response, which greatly suited JFK's need to escape the confines of Mutual Assured Destruction (MAD) was secondary to the receipt of politically beneficial inside information?

The two parts do not have to be mutually exclusive. The fact that Kennedy and Taylor are on the "same page" about Flexible Response would enhance Taylor's ability to to be accepted into the close group of top level campaign advisors that Robert Kennedy led. Advance knowledge about events to come (U-2 Incident/Bay of Pigs) would provide Taylor with a big advantage for a man who wished to gain influence within the group. It would be hard for me to believe that Taylor would say something to the effect of, "Well on May 1, 1960 a U-2 aircraft will be shot down so you should...." But evidence does seem to indicate that Kennedy was well advised on issues that were of such a high security level (Bay of Pigs planning), that he was not privy to in is intelligence briefings, that it is not such a large jump to believe that someone was providing him this information. Taylor could easily be that man.

Do you believe, electorally, that there is any foundation for the statement, "As a result of the U-2 incident Kennedy is elected President?"

"Yes, by looking at the negitive. If the U-2 incident does not occur and the Paris summit becomes a historical reality with some sort of (test ban/Berlin) treaty/resolution photo opp with Khrushchev, Eisenhower and NIXON standing together promising peace in our time....Nixon very well wins the election he, in reality, lost in one of the closest elections in US History. Looking at it honestly, in your own mind, would the few votes necessary to sway that election have been there if the Paris Summit was a success? Would Kennedy's position of labeling the Eisenhower Administration soft on Communism have worked if the US and the Soviet Union were in fact entering into a warmer relationship within the framework of the Paris Summit? Would the American public be inticed into voting for a continuation of the administration if additional summits/successes were espoused by the Nixon campaign of 1960?" What makes you think that peace with the Soviets, after so many years of demonizing the godless communists, would have been helpful in the realm of domestic political politics. After the Bay of Pigs fiasco, when Kennedy's approval ratings soared, he remarked: "It's just like with Ike; the worse you do the more they approve." I'm not sure it's a supportable political calculus that a successful Paris Summit would have helped Nixon's electoral chances. It would have made him look even softer on communism; and what would the consequences have been to Nixon's performance as chief political officer on the Bay of Pigs planning?

Once again look at the negitive of what you are suggesting. Do you think the "Seven Days in May" that Eisenhower spent denying the U-2 incident enhanced Nixon's chances of winning the election? Do you think the ongoing show trial of Francis Gary Powers, played out in the nightly press, during the campaign period was a help or a hindrance to Nixon? Were the diplomatic relations of the United States strengthend or weakend during the election period that followed the U-2 downing? France and Germany were openly critical of US policy at that period, France because of the failure of the Summit and Germany because they felt that the Soviet Union had hardend its position on Berlin. Was the Eisenhower/Nixon Adminstration viewed as being prepared on defense after the U-2 incident or did the bomber/missile gap rethoric gain traction?

"Was the U-2 incident just another coincidence leading to Dallas, Nov. 22, 1963?" Huh?

If the U-2 incident did in fact "help" the Kennedy election it is an event that led to Dallas. Another way of looking at the question would be, "Was it just a coincidence that Lee Harvey Oswald was a radar operator that worked with U-2 aircraft and defected to the USSR before one was "downed" and then returned to be charged with the assassination of the President of the United States. It is either a coincidence or there may be some part that plays in the events leading up to Nov. 22, 1963.

If Walker was such a protege of Taylor's, why was Walker doing anything so transparent and problematic as propagandizing troops in Germany against Kennedy during that administration?

"Look at the dates. Think for a moment, Nosenko first made contact with the CIA in the days immediatly following Oswald's return to the US and then defected, with information about Oswald's non affilliation with the KGB in tow, right after the assassination.... Although the process would take over a year to complete, Walker has been so distanced and even would be institutionalized that if Oswald could "finger" him as the man who passed the Oct. 9, 1959 Helsinki Embassy memo information to Oswald, it could be deflected from both the Kennedy adminsistration and, more importantly to General Taylor's connection to Walker." So your answer is just a guess that Walker was Oswald's Helsinki contact, and the nutty behavior leading to institutionalization was a buffer from culpability?

Bottom line: If anything I am proposing here makes any sense at all you have the potential for an Oswald that is returning to the US that could potentially point a finger at Walker and say something along the lines of , "Walker is the man who provided me with the information that helped me to get into the Soviet Union. Here is how I helped the Soviets shoot down the U-2. General Edwin Walker is a bad man." The senario I present suggest that that may have been a fear of the CIA. How would the CIA distance themselves from Walker? Give him a new assignment. "Ted" Walker always snaped to attention and said,

without question, the word, "check" when given any assignment. Walker's actions

directly following the assassination leads me to believe that he immediatly felt he was being set up to be the fall guy. But the "company" did not let him down.

Fact, Walker's demise is timed to Oswald's application to return. Walker's demise provides a perfect "cover story" if, in fact, Oswald were to do such a thing as return to the United States and accuse Walker of having sabatoged the Paris Summit.

Everything I have found in my research began with a reading of the Warren Report and the "discovery" of the Walker story. Within a short period of time I found this document:

Walker, Colonel Edwin Anderson

10.11.1909 Center Point, Texas - 31.10.1993 Dallas, Tex.

Education: Schreiner Insitute; 1925-1927 New Mexico Military Institute; 1927-1931 US Military Academy, West Point; 1937 Field Artillery School; 1946 Command and General Staff College, Fort Leavenworth; 1948 Air War College 1931 commissioned, Field Artillery

1932-1933 Battery Officer, 15th Field Artillery (Fort Sam Houston, Tex.)

1934-1936 Battery Officer, 16th Field Artillery Battalion (Fort Myer, Va.); US Army polo team

1936-1939 Battery Executive Officer, 18th Field Artillery Regiment (Fort Sill, Okl.)

1939-1941 Battery Commander, 2nd Battalion, 13th Field Artillery Regiment (Schofield Barracks, T.H.)

1942-1943 Artillery Battalion Commander, 4th Infantry Division (Camp Gordon, Ga.) & 83rd Infantry Division (Camp Atterbury, Ind.) & 2nd Cavalry Division (Fort Clark, Tex.)

1943-06.1944 Commanding Officer, 3rd Regiment, 1st Special Service Force (Aleutins, Italy)

06.1944-12.1944 Commander, 1st Special Service Force (Italy, France, Germany) 1944-1945 Commanding Officer, 474th Infantry Regiment (Germany)

1945 Commander, Task Force A, Oslo (Norway)

1946-1947 Executive, Assistent Director Combined Arms Department Field Artillery School, (Fort Sill, Okl.)

1948-1949 Staff Officer, Office of the Chief of Staff (Washington, DC)

1949-1950 Secretary, General Staff, 4th Army (Fort Sam Houston)

1950-1951 Assistant Commander, Ranger Training Commnd (Fort Benning)

1951-1952 Commanding Officer, 2nd Infantry Divisional Artillery; Commanding Officer, 7th Infantry Reiiment, 3rd Infantry Division

1952-1953 Deputy Chief of Staff for Prisoners of War Affairs, 8th Army; then senior adviser First Republic of Korea Corps, KMAG (Korea)

02.1953-09.1954 Deputy Commander for supporting arms, 82nd Airborne Division (Fort Bragg, NC)

1955 chief Army sect. MAAG, Tapai, Taiwan, adviser to Commander-in-Chief Chinese Nationalist Army

1955-1957 Commanding General, 25th Divisional Artillery (Schofield Barracks)

1957-1959 Commanding General, Arkansas Military District (Little Rock)

10.1959-1961 Commanding General, 24th Infantry Division (Augsburg, Germany)

1961 Assistant Deputy Chief of Staff for Operations, US Army Headquarters Europe

1961 resignated [because of right-wing opinions]

(Vice-)President American Eagle Publishing Co., consultant, author, speaker; 1962 candidate for Governor of Texas

Ranks:

2nd Lt. (1931); Lt.Col.; Col. (1944); Brig.Gen. (1953); Maj.Gen. (1957)

Decorations:

SS, BSM (2x), CI (2x), LM (2x), CR, Korean Unit Citation (US), Croix de Guerre (France), Order of St. Olav (Norway), OBE (UK), Ulchi Medal with gold and silver star (Korea)

Literature: Courtney, K. & P., The case of General Edwin A. Walker : the muzzling of the military who warn of the communist threat (Conservative Society of America, 1961)

Links: The strange case of Maj. Gen. Edwin A. Walker

The handbook of Texas online

The two highlighted portions caught my eye. First Special Services Forces (Special Forces/Special Opps potential CIA involvement) and the fact that Walker traveled from the US to Europe within the same time period that Oswald traveled to the Soviet Union. My research then followed three paths: Was Walker involved with intelligence operations? I have a myriad of information that suggests he was. Could Oswald have met Walker on his way to the Soviet Union? I have, within Serindipity, made my case. Why? That was the tough one till the Taylor connection became apparent. When the Taylor/Walker connection appeared too

many things made to much sense!

"In my opinion, Walker was tasked by his friend, General Taylor, to infiltrate the far right movement in America and was unaware that Oswald returned to the US until he saw his picture on the television after the assassination. After Oswald was dead, Walker denied making the statements attributed to him in the paper. I also believe that it is possible that "high officials" in the administration were aware of Oswald's movements in Dallas and suspected that he was involved with the assassination attempt on Walker. Hence the letters exchanged between McCloy and Walker that were left in a public place for easy discovery within a month of the attempt on Walker's life. I do not believe Walker knew the reason for those letters, just that they were additional cover for his "right wing" bonifides. McCloy was needed on the Warren Commission from the date of those letters on if for no other reason than to make sure his involvement with this whole series of events was buried." You seem to be saying that Walker was as much a patsy as Oswald. What are these "letters exchanged between McCloy and Walker?" And what evidence is there that there was an actual "attempt on Walker's life?"

Yes, I believe that Edwin Walker was a GREAT war hero and my research leads me to believe a "patsy" himself. He may well be the ideal Professional Soldier that follows orders, without question, and is willing to sacriface his life in the line of duty for his country without question. I have found nothing in his character/ military career that leads me to believe anything else until his "Pro Blue Program." From then on everything seems out of character. An examination of his "fiery" rethoric after the assassination of John F. Kennedy shows more of a half hearted effort by a man a little disenchanted.

Evidence "that there was an actual "attempt on Walker's life?"

Marina Oswald has never wavered that Lee had a rifle, and practiced with it. Her testimony to the WC and HSCA was nearly identical concerning the Walker shooting attempt. From her HSCA testimony:Q. When was the first time that Lee told you he had used the rifle apart from the target practice?

A. I think the General Walker incident.

Q. Could you relate the details of that incident to us now?

A. Well, I really cannot describe the details but the would be quite accurate in the testimony that I gave at the Warren Commission and if you refresh my memory I might be able to tell you.

Q. What happened the days before the Walder incident; did Lee act unusual at all?

A. Well he would be sitting--he made a little kind of not an office, a little closet that he has a chair there and maybe a desk-not a desk, improvisation of a desk, and he would be writing something down and he told me to to bother him so he was quite secretive about it. Q. And that was a few days before?

A. A few days, a few weeks. I do not remember exactly the time.

Q. Was Lee restless a few days before the incident? Was he calm? Did he sleep well?

A. I don't recall his mood.

Q. Did Lee ever talk in his sleep?

A. Not that I remember.

Q. Again in the book "Marina and Lee" you said that a few days prior to the Walker incident you recollect that he was talking in his sleep. A. that could be true.

Q. Do you remember, would he talk in English or would he talk in Russian.

A. I don't remember the incident right now.

Q. Did Lee go to work the day that he told you he shot at General Walker?

A. I don't remember the incident right now.

Q. Did Lee go to work the day that he told you he shot at General Walker?

A. I don't remember that either. What day of the week was it?

Q. It was a Wednesday.

A. Was it Wednesday? Well, I am sorry. I simply do not remember.

Q. How did Lee first tell you about the shooting of General Walker?

A. Well, he was gone most of the night and came home very late and turned the radio on.

Q. How did you feel that evening when he did not come home?

A. He did not come home for a long time and I do believe that I found a note addressed to me what to do in case something happened to him and I was petrified and didn't know what to do.

Q. When did you find the note?

A. After he went out.

Q. Was it unusual for him to be out late?

A. No; since he was leaving the house sometimes for this practicing that he supposedly was going to.

Q. So you were not surprised that he was out that evening?

A. Well, I was surprised that he came home that late.

Q. Were you worried where he was?

A. Of course I was.

Q. Did you contact anybody?

A. No; I didn't.

Q. What did he say when he returned?

A. Well, he turned the radio on and he was very pale and he was listening to the news, changing from station to station. I asked him what it was all about and he said that he tried to shoot General Walker. I told him how dare you take somebody's life and you should not do things like that, I mean you have no right to do it. He said, see, if somebody shot Hitler at the right time you will do justice to humanity so since I don't know anything about the man I should not talk about it.

Q. Did you know who General Walder was?

A. He told me he was a Fascist. That is all I know.

Q. Had you heard the name before?

A. No. Q. Did Lee ever mention to you a man named Scotty?

A. No.

Q. Did Lee ever--

A. Just a minute. I heard this name before and I don't know if it came from Lee or somebody that he could be working with. I think it is a little but confusing. Scotty could be a dog. I am sorry.

Q. Did he ever mention a man who spoke with a Scottish accent?

A. Oh, you mean with a Scottish accent? No; never.

Q. Did he ever mention a man who lived with General Walker?

A. No; I thought the man lived alone after what I read later on.

Q. When Lee came back that night was he disheveled?

A. What's disheveled?

Q. Was he dirty? Were his clothes still neat?

A. Well, honestly I only remember that he was very pale and that is all I recall.

Q. When do you recall him leaving the house that day prior to his shooting at General Walker?

A. I don't recall if he came from work and then left or whether he left after work. I don't remember.

Q. Was he dressed in the same clothes that you saw him previously when he returned?

A. I just don't remember.

Q. Did he have the rifle with him when he came back?

A. No; I think he said he left it hidden somewhere and I do believe the next day at night he went and got it. That is what I remember right now. That is the testimony I am giving you, what I remember.

Q. That is what we want, your present recollection. Did he tell you he had shot at him with a rifle or did he mention that he had used a gun?

A. Well, I think it was a rifle.

Q. Did he tell you where he hid the rifle or the gun?

A. I think he might have mentioned that it was in the shrubs somewhere.

Q. Did you discuss with him whether it would be found and the police would be looking for him?

A. It was such an unpleasant and terrifying incident that I was just trembling all day long. I was looking through the windows; I was expecting police coming any second.

Q. Did you suggest to Lee that he go back and get the gun or rifle or did he do it by himself?

A. I think he did it by himself.

Q. What did he do with the gun or the rifle when he went back and got it?

A. Kept it in the house.

Q. Did you see it again?

A. Well, I never made a point of going and checking the rifle every day to see whether is was there or not.

Q. Where in the house would he keep it?

A. In the closet. Q. On a shelf or was it on the floor?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Was it wrapped in anything?

A. It could be just kind of stanking in the corner.

Q. Proppoed up in the corner of the closet?

A. It could be.

Q. Was it covered? Was it wrapped in anything?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Was the closet crowded? Did it have many things in it?

A. Usually his personal belongings, his clothes, his books, whatever, and he told me to stay out of it; that is his own private thing.

Q. This was his closet?

A. Yes.

Q. If you opened the closet, was it easy to get the rifle or did you have to move a lot of things aside before you got it?

A. I never did it.

Q. If you opened the closet door, would you see the rifle immediately?

A. I don't remember.

Q. The photographs you took of Lee with the rifle and the pistol, do you know where Lee developed those photos?

A. Well, didn't he work for some time with photography?

Q. You don't know where he developed the films?

A. No.

Q. Did he have any photographic supplies around the house?

A. It is so hard to dig through your memory that long back. He might have; I don't know.

Q. When you saw the rifle that he had, was that the same rifle he had in Russia?

A. I don't remember. How can you transport a gun from one country to another when you have to go through the inspection on the border?

Q. So you don't think he brought the gun with him?

A. I don't see how it logically or possibly could happen. Oh, you mean the same gun. Well, he bought the rifle right here.

Q. He bought it here?

A. Yes.

Q. How did he buy the rifle here?

A. Well, I learned later afterward that he ordered through some mail.

Q. At that time did you know that he had ordered a rifle?

A. Well, since I had seen the rifle I knew he purchased it. How he purchased it I do not know.

Q. The first time you saw it did you ask him, "Where did you get the rifle?"

A. No; but I was very upset that he spent money on such an unnecessary, stupid thing then we barely could survive on what he was making.

Q. Did you ask him how much it cost?

A. No.

Q. Where did Lee keep his gun? The rifle was in the closet.

A. Well, it never was on display on the wall but everybody can see it. It was always hidden somewhere back in the closet. We did not live in one place very long; we moved from apartment to the apartment.

Q. In the apartment where the rifle was kept in the closet, was the gun also kept there or was it dept somewhere else?

A. I assume it was together.

Q. Did you see it in that closet?

A. Well, see, my recollection about-do you recall the gun?

Q. Yes.

A. The pictures I took showed two.

Q. It showed a rifle and a gun.

A. Yes.

Q. the question I have is just where did he keep the gun if the rifle was in the closet?

A. I honestly do not know.

Q. When you were living with Lee at this time, did he ever take the gun out to go target shooting with that as well as the rifle?

A. I recall only the rifle because it was quite bulky and he had to hide it under his raincoat but I do not recall the gun at all.

Q. When he brought the rifle back after he had hid it in the bushes from General Walker's house, what did he carry it in? He didn't just carry the rifle over his shoulder.

A. No; he didn't, but I told you that he was wearing this raincoat.

Walker fieled a police report after the incident but in his own testimony before the Warren Commission was quick to deny that Oswald had in fact shot at him.

A few notes from Walker's Testimony before the Warren Commission:

Mr. Liebeler.

I don't think we have to indicate a great deal of your background for the record, since I think we all know who you are...

Mr. Liebeler.

It is my understanding that on the evening of April 10, 1963, some person fired a shot at you while you were in your home on Turtle Creek Boulevard; is that correct?

General Walker.

That is correct.

Mr. Liebeler.

Would you tell us the circumstances surrounding that event, as you can now recall them?

General Walker.

I was sitting behind my desk. It was right at 9 o'clock, and most of the lights were on in the house and the shades were up. I was sitting down behind a desk facing out from a corner, with my head over a pencil and paper working on my income tax when I heard a blast and a crack right over my head.

Mr. Liebeler.

What did you do then?

General Walker.

I thought--we had been fooling with the screens on the house and I thought that possibly somebody had thrown a firecracker, that it exploded right over my head through the window right behind me. Since there is a church back there, often there are children playing back there. Then I looked around and saw that the screen was not out, but was in the window, and this couldn't possibly happen, so I got up and walked around the desk and looked back where I was sitting and I saw a hole in the wall which would have been to my left while I was sitting to my right as I looked back, and the desk was catercornered in the corner up against this wall. I noticed there was a hole in the wall, so I went upstairs and got a pistol and came back down and went out the back door, taking a look to see what might have happened.

Mr. Liebeler.

Did you find anything outside that you 'could relate to this attack on you?

General Walker.

No, sir; I couldn't. As I crossed a window coming downstairs in front, I saw a car at the bottom of the church alley just making a turn onto Turtle Creek. The car was unidentifiable. I could see the two back lights, and you have to look through trees there, and I could see it moving out. This car would have been about at the right time for anybody that was making a getaway.

Mr. Liebeler.

Now as I understand it, there is an alley that runs directly at the rear of your house; is that correct?

General Walker.

yes, sir.

Mr. Liebeler.

Does that alley run directly into Turtle Creek Boulevard, or does it join with another alley?

General Walker.

No, sir; it joins with another alley, and it joins with the street called Avondale.

Mr. Liebeler.

So that to get--

General Walker.

At one end is Avondale, which runs into Turtle Creek going downhill east, and at the other end it goes into the parking lot of the church. As you enter that parking lot from my alley, if you turn directly right, you go down the church alley going into Turtle Creek, and that is where the car was going down that I referred to, and it was just making the turn out of. the church alley.

Mr. Liebeler.

The alley that runs into Turtle Creek?

General Walker.

No; directly from the church alley into the Turtle Creek main boulevard. Now, there is another alley right at the entrance of my alley to the church parking lot, which runs straight west practically-to Oak Lawn. Hardly anybody knows it is there, because you have to ease down it with an automobile, it is so narrow. And as I know, only garbage trucks use it. I have been up and down it once or twice only.

Mr. Liebeler.

Now when you got that pistol, did you go out the back door of your house?

General Walker.

I went out the back door.

Mr. Liebeler.

You went into the alley?

General Walker.

I went about halfway out to the alley.

Mr. Liebeler.

From that point you could observe this car that was just turning?

General Walker.

No, Sir. I observed that--it was already gone I observed that from the window upstairs as I came down with the pistol. I could see out the south window, front and left.

Mr. Liebeler.

I would imagine that you assumed that that car had gone from the church parking lot down the alley and was at that point entering Turtle Creek Boulevard?

General Walker.

That is correct.

Mr. Liebeler.

Did you see which direction it turned?

General Walker.

Left, going north.

Mr. Liebeler.

Were you able to make any kind of identification of the automobile at all?

General Walker.

None at all.

Later in the testimony,

Mr. Liebeler.

In point of fact, it would be correct to state that, to your knowledge, you never saw or heard of Lee Harvey Oswald at any time prior to the time that his name was announced after the assassination on November 22, 1963?

General Walker.

That is correct.

Mr. Liebeler.

You had no connection of any sort whatsoever with him prior to that time?

General Walker.

None at all.

Mr. Liebeler.

Or since that time?

General Walker.

Or with anybody that I ever knew that was associated with him, unless Duff turns out to be.

General Watts.

Off the record.

Was the above statement a slip? "Or with anybody that I ever knew that was associated with him..." and his attorney, general Watts pull him "off the record."

Continuing:

Mr. Liebeler.

Do you know Helmet Hubert Muench?

General Walker.

That name is not familiar to me. Can you give me anything to refresh me?

Mr. Liebeler.

Yes. He is a West German journalist who wrote an article that appeared in the Deutsche Nationalzeitung und Soldatenzeitung, a Munich, Germany, newspaper.

General Walker.

No; I don't know him.

Mr. Liebeler.

Did you ever talk to him?

General Walker.

Not that I know of.

Mr. Liebeler.

Did you talk to him on a transatlantic telephone call in which you told him about the fact or the alleged fact that Lee Harvey Oswald was the person who made an attempt on your life?

General Walker.

I don't recall that name. Did he speak English? I don't speak German.

Walker avoids answering the questions:

Mr. Liebeler.

Have you ever seen a copy of that newspaper?

General Walker.

Yes; I have.

Mr. Liebeler.

In fact, I suggest that you have seen the November 29, 1963, copy of that newspaper which had on its front page a story entitled in German "The Strange Case of Oswald", that told about how Oswald had allegedly attacked you.

General Walker.

November 29, that is correct.

Mr. Liebeler.

Now, where did that newspaper get that information, do you know?

General Walker.

I do not. There was all article in the paper that he probably got from me.

Mr. Liebeler.

Well, in fact, the issue of that newspaper has right on the front page what purports to be a transcript of a telephone conversation between you and some other person.

General Walker.

Thorsten?

Mr. Liebeler.

Yes. Hasso Thorsten, is that the man?

General Walker.

He called me in Shreveport.

Avoids the question.

Mr. Liebeler.

When were you in Shreveport?

General Walker.

He called me the morning of November 23, 1963, about 7 a.m.

Mr. Liebeler.

That is when you gave him this information about Oswald having attacked you?

General Walker.

I didn't give him all the information--I think the portion you are referring to, I didn't give him, because I had no way of knowing that Oswald attacked me. I still don't. And I am not very prone to say in fact he did. In fact, I have always claimed he did not, until we can get into the case or somebody tells us differently that he did.

Who would need to tell him differently?

General Walker.

Well, starting back to make the record clear, I had a speaking engagement in Hattiesburg, Miss., either the 18th or 19th of November. I went from there to New Orleans and stayed 2 or 3 days. I was in the airplane between New Orleans and Shreveport about halfway, when the pilot announced that the President had been assassinated. I landed in Shreveport and went to the Captain Shreve Hotel and stayed there two nights and returned to Dallas and was walking into my house, just about the time of the immediate rerun of the shooting of Oswald. I had been out of the city on speaking engagements.

How did the German newspaper get his telephone number at the Captain Shreve Hotel to call him at exactly 7:00 AM?

The answer to this question will never be known, but I think it is highly possible that Walker made the arrangements to speak with the German newspaper that broke the story that was later supported by Marina Oswald and was a major basis for the conclusions of the Warren Commission's "lone nut" assassin.

The timming of the McCloy/ Walker correspondance was a topic of a very early post of mine. At the time that I "discovered" the letter from McCloy I was so new to this topic that I did not even know that McCloy was a member of the Warren Commission. After the Walker bio was found this letter was the next peice to a puzzle that was laying accross the trail that has gotten me to this point.

Do you believe that Taylor, because he "knows where Oswald is working," directed "the motorcade past that point?"

"Completely plausible that someone had to know and influenced the motorcade planning." Yes, plausible that the motorcade route involved knowledge of Oswald's workplace, but that hardly means that the Chairman of the JCS would pesonally be involved in such a local matter.

"If Taylor was aware of where Oswald was working and "helped" to direct the motorcade along that path then Maxwell Taylor pulled off the perfect murder" would be an interesting "if then" statement for debate, don't you agree?

.

"It would take me hours to explain WS 117L in connection with why the U-2 may have been a planned operation along with Tiros/Midas, Corona and Samos projects, the Army Missile Program, Walker, Taylor, etc., etc." I'll look forward to that explanation.

Provided to a point....

You've even explained the 1927 reference, which at first glance seemed off to me. You do seem to be implying that Taylor played Walker to a degree, the realization of which began to dawn on Walker during the last stages of the assassination events.

Yes, see above testimony excerpts.

Jim Root

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Tim

Attempting to respond......

Example of a simpler issue which I can readily take exception: Do you believe that the U-2 was downed by the Soviets at all? "Yes. The U-2 incident did in fact occur. We can speculate on the details but it did in fact happen, one way or another." But Jim, the question was, do you believe that the U-2 was "downed?" In other words, was it sabotaged before takeoff, as opposed to being shot down by a SAM, which might imply the benefit of inside radar information. If it was not shot down, that implication isn't there.

See previous edited post that deals with this topic within this thread.

"Do you believe that then Senator Kennedy conspired with Taylor ..."

"No, I believe that the then out of the military General Taylor may have shared information with the Kennedy campaign with the intent of gaining influence (which he did in some way, becoming Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff)." So Jim, it's your take that Taylor's Uncertain Trumpet doctrince of Flexible Response, which greatly suited JFK's need to escape the confines of Mutual Assured Destruction (MAD) was secondary to the receipt of politically beneficial inside information?

The two parts do not have to be mutually exclusive. The fact that Kennedy and Taylor are on the "same page" about Flexible Response would enhance Taylor's ability to to be accepted into the close group of top level campaign advisors that Robert Kennedy led. Advance knowledge about events to come (U-2 Incident/Bay of Pigs) would provide Taylor with a big advantage for a man who wished to gain influence within the group. It would be hard for me to believe that Taylor would say something to the effect of, "Well on May 1, 1960 a U-2 aircraft will be shot down so you should...." But evidence does seem to indicate that Kennedy was well advised on issues that were of such a high security level (Bay of Pigs planning), that he was not privy to in is intelligence briefings, that it is not such a large jump to believe that someone was providing him this information. Taylor could easily be that man.

Do you believe, electorally, that there is any foundation for the statement, "As a result of the U-2 incident Kennedy is elected President?"

"Yes, by looking at the negitive. If the U-2 incident does not occur and the Paris summit becomes a historical reality with some sort of (test ban/Berlin) treaty/resolution photo opp with Khrushchev, Eisenhower and NIXON standing together promising peace in our time....Nixon very well wins the election he, in reality, lost in one of the closest elections in US History. Looking at it honestly, in your own mind, would the few votes necessary to sway that election have been there if the Paris Summit was a success? Would Kennedy's position of labeling the Eisenhower Administration soft on Communism have worked if the US and the Soviet Union were in fact entering into a warmer relationship within the framework of the Paris Summit? Would the American public be inticed into voting for a continuation of the administration if additional summits/successes were espoused by the Nixon campaign of 1960?" What makes you think that peace with the Soviets, after so many years of demonizing the godless communists, would have been helpful in the realm of domestic political politics. After the Bay of Pigs fiasco, when Kennedy's approval ratings soared, he remarked: "It's just like with Ike; the worse you do the more they approve." I'm not sure it's a supportable political calculus that a successful Paris Summit would have helped Nixon's electoral chances. It would have made him look even softer on communism; and what would the consequences have been to Nixon's performance as chief political officer on the Bay of Pigs planning?

Once again look at the negitive of what you are suggesting. Do you think the "Seven Days in May" that Eisenhower spent denying the U-2 incident enhanced Nixon's chances of winning the election? Do you think the ongoing show trial of Francis Gary Powers, played out in the nightly press, during the campaign period was a help or a hindrance to Nixon? Were the diplomatic relations of the United States strengthend or weakend during the election period that followed the U-2 downing? France and Germany were openly critical of US policy at that period, France because of the failure of the Summit and Germany because they felt that the Soviet Union had hardend its position on Berlin. Was the Eisenhower/Nixon Adminstration viewed as being prepared on defense after the U-2 incident or did the bomber/missile gap rethoric gain traction?

"Was the U-2 incident just another coincidence leading to Dallas, Nov. 22, 1963?" Huh?

If the U-2 incident did in fact "help" the Kennedy election it is an event that led to Dallas. Another way of looking at the question would be, "Was it just a coincidence that Lee Harvey Oswald was a radar operator that worked with U-2 aircraft and defected to the USSR before one was "downed" and then returned to be charged with the assassination of the President of the United States. It is either a coincidence or there may be some part that plays in the events leading up to Nov. 22, 1963.

If Walker was such a protege of Taylor's, why was Walker doing anything so transparent and problematic as propagandizing troops in Germany against Kennedy during that administration?

"Look at the dates. Think for a moment, Nosenko first made contact with the CIA in the days immediatly following Oswald's return to the US and then defected, with information about Oswald's non affilliation with the KGB in tow, right after the assassination.... Although the process would take over a year to complete, Walker has been so distanced and even would be institutionalized that if Oswald could "finger" him as the man who passed the Oct. 9, 1959 Helsinki Embassy memo information to Oswald, it could be deflected from both the Kennedy adminsistration and, more importantly to General Taylor's connection to Walker." So your answer is just a guess that Walker was Oswald's Helsinki contact, and the nutty behavior leading to institutionalization was a buffer from culpability?

Bottom line: If anything I am proposing here makes any sense at all you have the potential for an Oswald that is returning to the US that could potentially point a finger at Walker and say something along the lines of , "Walker is the man who provided me with the information that helped me to get into the Soviet Union. Here is how I helped the Soviets shoot down the U-2. General Edwin Walker is a bad man." The senario I present suggest that that may have been a fear of the CIA. How would the CIA distance themselves from Walker? Give him a new assignment. "Ted" Walker always snaped to attention and said,

without question, the word, "check" when given any assignment. Walker's actions

directly following the assassination leads me to believe that he immediatly felt he was being set up to be the fall guy. But the "company" did not let him down.

Fact, Walker's demise is timed to Oswald's application to return. Walker's demise provides a perfect "cover story" if, in fact, Oswald were to do such a thing as return to the United States and accuse Walker of having sabatoged the Paris Summit.

Everything I have found in my research began with a reading of the Warren Report and the "discovery" of the Walker story. Within a short period of time I found this document:

Walker, Colonel Edwin Anderson

10.11.1909 Center Point, Texas - 31.10.1993 Dallas, Tex.

Education: Schreiner Insitute; 1925-1927 New Mexico Military Institute; 1927-1931 US Military Academy, West Point; 1937 Field Artillery School; 1946 Command and General Staff College, Fort Leavenworth; 1948 Air War College 1931 commissioned, Field Artillery

1932-1933 Battery Officer, 15th Field Artillery (Fort Sam Houston, Tex.)

1934-1936 Battery Officer, 16th Field Artillery Battalion (Fort Myer, Va.); US Army polo team

1936-1939 Battery Executive Officer, 18th Field Artillery Regiment (Fort Sill, Okl.)

1939-1941 Battery Commander, 2nd Battalion, 13th Field Artillery Regiment (Schofield Barracks, T.H.)

1942-1943 Artillery Battalion Commander, 4th Infantry Division (Camp Gordon, Ga.) & 83rd Infantry Division (Camp Atterbury, Ind.) & 2nd Cavalry Division (Fort Clark, Tex.)

1943-06.1944 Commanding Officer, 3rd Regiment, 1st Special Service Force (Aleutins, Italy)

06.1944-12.1944 Commander, 1st Special Service Force (Italy, France, Germany) 1944-1945 Commanding Officer, 474th Infantry Regiment (Germany)

1945 Commander, Task Force A, Oslo (Norway)

1946-1947 Executive, Assistent Director Combined Arms Department Field Artillery School, (Fort Sill, Okl.)

1948-1949 Staff Officer, Office of the Chief of Staff (Washington, DC)

1949-1950 Secretary, General Staff, 4th Army (Fort Sam Houston)

1950-1951 Assistant Commander, Ranger Training Commnd (Fort Benning)

1951-1952 Commanding Officer, 2nd Infantry Divisional Artillery; Commanding Officer, 7th Infantry Reiiment, 3rd Infantry Division

1952-1953 Deputy Chief of Staff for Prisoners of War Affairs, 8th Army; then senior adviser First Republic of Korea Corps, KMAG (Korea)

02.1953-09.1954 Deputy Commander for supporting arms, 82nd Airborne Division (Fort Bragg, NC)

1955 chief Army sect. MAAG, Tapai, Taiwan, adviser to Commander-in-Chief Chinese Nationalist Army

1955-1957 Commanding General, 25th Divisional Artillery (Schofield Barracks)

1957-1959 Commanding General, Arkansas Military District (Little Rock)

10.1959-1961 Commanding General, 24th Infantry Division (Augsburg, Germany)

1961 Assistant Deputy Chief of Staff for Operations, US Army Headquarters Europe

1961 resignated [because of right-wing opinions]

(Vice-)President American Eagle Publishing Co., consultant, author, speaker; 1962 candidate for Governor of Texas

Ranks:

2nd Lt. (1931); Lt.Col.; Col. (1944); Brig.Gen. (1953); Maj.Gen. (1957)

Decorations:

SS, BSM (2x), CI (2x), LM (2x), CR, Korean Unit Citation (US), Croix de Guerre (France), Order of St. Olav (Norway), OBE (UK), Ulchi Medal with gold and silver star (Korea)

Literature: Courtney, K. & P., The case of General Edwin A. Walker : the muzzling of the military who warn of the communist threat (Conservative Society of America, 1961)

Links: The strange case of Maj. Gen. Edwin A. Walker

The handbook of Texas online

The two highlighted portions caught my eye. First Special Services Forces (Special Forces/Special Opps potential CIA involvement) and the fact that Walker traveled from the US to Europe within the same time period that Oswald traveled to the Soviet Union. My research then followed three paths: Was Walker involved with intelligence operations? I have a myriad of information that suggests he was. Could Oswald have met Walker on his way to the Soviet Union? I have, within Serindipity, made my case. Why? That was the tough one till the Taylor connection became apparent. When the Taylor/Walker connection appeared too

many things made to much sense!

"In my opinion, Walker was tasked by his friend, General Taylor, to infiltrate the far right movement in America and was unaware that Oswald returned to the US until he saw his picture on the television after the assassination. After Oswald was dead, Walker denied making the statements attributed to him in the paper. I also believe that it is possible that "high officials" in the administration were aware of Oswald's movements in Dallas and suspected that he was involved with the assassination attempt on Walker. Hence the letters exchanged between McCloy and Walker that were left in a public place for easy discovery within a month of the attempt on Walker's life. I do not believe Walker knew the reason for those letters, just that they were additional cover for his "right wing" bonifides. McCloy was needed on the Warren Commission from the date of those letters on if for no other reason than to make sure his involvement with this whole series of events was buried." You seem to be saying that Walker was as much a patsy as Oswald. What are these "letters exchanged between McCloy and Walker?" And what evidence is there that there was an actual "attempt on Walker's life?"

Yes, I believe that Edwin Walker was a GREAT war hero and my research leads me to believe a "patsy" himself. He may well be the ideal Professional Soldier that follows orders, without question, and is willing to sacriface his life in the line of duty for his country without question. I have found nothing in his character/ military career that leads me to believe anything else until his "Pro Blue Program." From then on everything seems out of character. An examination of his "fiery" rethoric after the assassination of John F. Kennedy shows more of a half hearted effort by a man a little disenchanted.

Evidence "that there was an actual "attempt on Walker's life?"

Marina Oswald has never wavered that Lee had a rifle, and practiced with it. Her testimony to the WC and HSCA was nearly identical concerning the Walker shooting attempt. From her HSCA testimony:Q. When was the first time that Lee told you he had used the rifle apart from the target practice?

A. I think the General Walker incident.

Q. Could you relate the details of that incident to us now?

A. Well, I really cannot describe the details but the would be quite accurate in the testimony that I gave at the Warren Commission and if you refresh my memory I might be able to tell you.

Q. What happened the days before the Walder incident; did Lee act unusual at all?

A. Well he would be sitting--he made a little kind of not an office, a little closet that he has a chair there and maybe a desk-not a desk, improvisation of a desk, and he would be writing something down and he told me to to bother him so he was quite secretive about it. Q. And that was a few days before?

A. A few days, a few weeks. I do not remember exactly the time.

Q. Was Lee restless a few days before the incident? Was he calm? Did he sleep well?

A. I don't recall his mood.

Q. Did Lee ever talk in his sleep?

A. Not that I remember.

Q. Again in the book "Marina and Lee" you said that a few days prior to the Walker incident you recollect that he was talking in his sleep. A. that could be true.

Q. Do you remember, would he talk in English or would he talk in Russian.

A. I don't remember the incident right now.

Q. Did Lee go to work the day that he told you he shot at General Walker?

A. I don't remember the incident right now.

Q. Did Lee go to work the day that he told you he shot at General Walker?

A. I don't remember that either. What day of the week was it?

Q. It was a Wednesday.

A. Was it Wednesday? Well, I am sorry. I simply do not remember.

Q. How did Lee first tell you about the shooting of General Walker?

A. Well, he was gone most of the night and came home very late and turned the radio on.

Q. How did you feel that evening when he did not come home?

A. He did not come home for a long time and I do believe that I found a note addressed to me what to do in case something happened to him and I was petrified and didn't know what to do.

Q. When did you find the note?

A. After he went out.

Q. Was it unusual for him to be out late?

A. No; since he was leaving the house sometimes for this practicing that he supposedly was going to.

Q. So you were not surprised that he was out that evening?

A. Well, I was surprised that he came home that late.

Q. Were you worried where he was?

A. Of course I was.

Q. Did you contact anybody?

A. No; I didn't.

Q. What did he say when he returned?

A. Well, he turned the radio on and he was very pale and he was listening to the news, changing from station to station. I asked him what it was all about and he said that he tried to shoot General Walker. I told him how dare you take somebody's life and you should not do things like that, I mean you have no right to do it. He said, see, if somebody shot Hitler at the right time you will do justice to humanity so since I don't know anything about the man I should not talk about it.

Q. Did you know who General Walder was?

A. He told me he was a Fascist. That is all I know.

Q. Had you heard the name before?

A. No. Q. Did Lee ever mention to you a man named Scotty?

A. No.

Q. Did Lee ever--

A. Just a minute. I heard this name before and I don't know if it came from Lee or somebody that he could be working with. I think it is a little but confusing. Scotty could be a dog. I am sorry.

Q. Did he ever mention a man who spoke with a Scottish accent?

A. Oh, you mean with a Scottish accent? No; never.

Q. Did he ever mention a man who lived with General Walker?

A. No; I thought the man lived alone after what I read later on.

Q. When Lee came back that night was he disheveled?

A. What's disheveled?

Q. Was he dirty? Were his clothes still neat?

A. Well, honestly I only remember that he was very pale and that is all I recall.

Q. When do you recall him leaving the house that day prior to his shooting at General Walker?

A. I don't recall if he came from work and then left or whether he left after work. I don't remember.

Q. Was he dressed in the same clothes that you saw him previously when he returned?

A. I just don't remember.

Q. Did he have the rifle with him when he came back?

A. No; I think he said he left it hidden somewhere and I do believe the next day at night he went and got it. That is what I remember right now. That is the testimony I am giving you, what I remember.

Q. That is what we want, your present recollection. Did he tell you he had shot at him with a rifle or did he mention that he had used a gun?

A. Well, I think it was a rifle.

Q. Did he tell you where he hid the rifle or the gun?

A. I think he might have mentioned that it was in the shrubs somewhere.

Q. Did you discuss with him whether it would be found and the police would be looking for him?

A. It was such an unpleasant and terrifying incident that I was just trembling all day long. I was looking through the windows; I was expecting police coming any second.

Q. Did you suggest to Lee that he go back and get the gun or rifle or did he do it by himself?

A. I think he did it by himself.

Q. What did he do with the gun or the rifle when he went back and got it?

A. Kept it in the house.

Q. Did you see it again?

A. Well, I never made a point of going and checking the rifle every day to see whether is was there or not.

Q. Where in the house would he keep it?

A. In the closet. Q. On a shelf or was it on the floor?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Was it wrapped in anything?

A. It could be just kind of stanking in the corner.

Q. Proppoed up in the corner of the closet?

A. It could be.

Q. Was it covered? Was it wrapped in anything?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Was the closet crowded? Did it have many things in it?

A. Usually his personal belongings, his clothes, his books, whatever, and he told me to stay out of it; that is his own private thing.

Q. This was his closet?

A. Yes.

Q. If you opened the closet, was it easy to get the rifle or did you have to move a lot of things aside before you got it?

A. I never did it.

Q. If you opened the closet door, would you see the rifle immediately?

A. I don't remember.

Q. The photographs you took of Lee with the rifle and the pistol, do you know where Lee developed those photos?

A. Well, didn't he work for some time with photography?

Q. You don't know where he developed the films?

A. No.

Q. Did he have any photographic supplies around the house?

A. It is so hard to dig through your memory that long back. He might have; I don't know.

Q. When you saw the rifle that he had, was that the same rifle he had in Russia?

A. I don't remember. How can you transport a gun from one country to another when you have to go through the inspection on the border?

Q. So you don't think he brought the gun with him?

A. I don't see how it logically or possibly could happen. Oh, you mean the same gun. Well, he bought the rifle right here.

Q. He bought it here?

A. Yes.

Q. How did he buy the rifle here?

A. Well, I learned later afterward that he ordered through some mail.

Q. At that time did you know that he had ordered a rifle?

A. Well, since I had seen the rifle I knew he purchased it. How he purchased it I do not know.

Q. The first time you saw it did you ask him, "Where did you get the rifle?"

A. No; but I was very upset that he spent money on such an unnecessary, stupid thing then we barely could survive on what he was making.

Q. Did you ask him how much it cost?

A. No.

Q. Where did Lee keep his gun? The rifle was in the closet.

A. Well, it never was on display on the wall but everybody can see it. It was always hidden somewhere back in the closet. We did not live in one place very long; we moved from apartment to the apartment.

Q. In the apartment where the rifle was kept in the closet, was the gun also kept there or was it dept somewhere else?

A. I assume it was together.

Q. Did you see it in that closet?

A. Well, see, my recollection about-do you recall the gun?

Q. Yes.

A. The pictures I took showed two.

Q. It showed a rifle and a gun.

A. Yes.

Q. the question I have is just where did he keep the gun if the rifle was in the closet?

A. I honestly do not know.

Q. When you were living with Lee at this time, did he ever take the gun out to go target shooting with that as well as the rifle?

A. I recall only the rifle because it was quite bulky and he had to hide it under his raincoat but I do not recall the gun at all.

Q. When he brought the rifle back after he had hid it in the bushes from General Walker's house, what did he carry it in? He didn't just carry the rifle over his shoulder.

A. No; he didn't, but I told you that he was wearing this raincoat.

Walker fieled a police report after the incident but in his own testimony before the Warren Commission was quick to deny that Oswald had in fact shot at him.

A few notes from Walker's Testimony before the Warren Commission:

Mr. Liebeler.

I don't think we have to indicate a great deal of your background for the record, since I think we all know who you are...

Mr. Liebeler.

It is my understanding that on the evening of April 10, 1963, some person fired a shot at you while you were in your home on Turtle Creek Boulevard; is that correct?

General Walker.

That is correct.

Mr. Liebeler.

Would you tell us the circumstances surrounding that event, as you can now recall them?

General Walker.

I was sitting behind my desk. It was right at 9 o'clock, and most of the lights were on in the house and the shades were up. I was sitting down behind a desk facing out from a corner, with my head over a pencil and paper working on my income tax when I heard a blast and a crack right over my head.

Mr. Liebeler.

What did you do then?

General Walker.

I thought--we had been fooling with the screens on the house and I thought that possibly somebody had thrown a firecracker, that it exploded right over my head through the window right behind me. Since there is a church back there, often there are children playing back there. Then I looked around and saw that the screen was not out, but was in the window, and this couldn't possibly happen, so I got up and walked around the desk and looked back where I was sitting and I saw a hole in the wall which would have been to my left while I was sitting to my right as I looked back, and the desk was catercornered in the corner up against this wall. I noticed there was a hole in the wall, so I went upstairs and got a pistol and came back down and went out the back door, taking a look to see what might have happened.

Mr. Liebeler.

Did you find anything outside that you 'could relate to this attack on you?

General Walker.

No, sir; I couldn't. As I crossed a window coming downstairs in front, I saw a car at the bottom of the church alley just making a turn onto Turtle Creek. The car was unidentifiable. I could see the two back lights, and you have to look through trees there, and I could see it moving out. This car would have been about at the right time for anybody that was making a getaway.

Mr. Liebeler.

Now as I understand it, there is an alley that runs directly at the rear of your house; is that correct?

General Walker.

yes, sir.

Mr. Liebeler.

Does that alley run directly into Turtle Creek Boulevard, or does it join with another alley?

General Walker.

No, sir; it joins with another alley, and it joins with the street called Avondale.

Mr. Liebeler.

So that to get--

General Walker.

At one end is Avondale, which runs into Turtle Creek going downhill east, and at the other end it goes into the parking lot of the church. As you enter that parking lot from my alley, if you turn directly right, you go down the church alley going into Turtle Creek, and that is where the car was going down that I referred to, and it was just making the turn out of. the church alley.

Mr. Liebeler.

The alley that runs into Turtle Creek?

General Walker.

No; directly from the church alley into the Turtle Creek main boulevard. Now, there is another alley right at the entrance of my alley to the church parking lot, which runs straight west practically-to Oak Lawn. Hardly anybody knows it is there, because you have to ease down it with an automobile, it is so narrow. And as I know, only garbage trucks use it. I have been up and down it once or twice only.

Mr. Liebeler.

Now when you got that pistol, did you go out the back door of your house?

General Walker.

I went out the back door.

Mr. Liebeler.

You went into the alley?

General Walker.

I went about halfway out to the alley.

Mr. Liebeler.

From that point you could observe this car that was just turning?

General Walker.

No, Sir. I observed that--it was already gone I observed that from the window upstairs as I came down with the pistol. I could see out the south window, front and left.

Mr. Liebeler.

I would imagine that you assumed that that car had gone from the church parking lot down the alley and was at that point entering Turtle Creek Boulevard?

General Walker.

That is correct.

Mr. Liebeler.

Did you see which direction it turned?

General Walker.

Left, going north.

Mr. Liebeler.

Were you able to make any kind of identification of the automobile at all?

General Walker.

None at all.

Later in the testimony,

Mr. Liebeler.

In point of fact, it would be correct to state that, to your knowledge, you never saw or heard of Lee Harvey Oswald at any time prior to the time that his name was announced after the assassination on November 22, 1963?

General Walker.

That is correct.

Mr. Liebeler.

You had no connection of any sort whatsoever with him prior to that time?

General Walker.

None at all.

Mr. Liebeler.

Or since that time?

General Walker.

Or with anybody that I ever knew that was associated with him, unless Duff turns out to be.

General Watts.

Off the record.

Was the above statement a slip? "Or with anybody that I ever knew that was associated with him..." and his attorney, general Watts pull him "off the record."

Continuing:

Mr. Liebeler.

Do you know Helmet Hubert Muench?

General Walker.

That name is not familiar to me. Can you give me anything to refresh me?

Mr. Liebeler.

Yes. He is a West German journalist who wrote an article that appeared in the Deutsche Nationalzeitung und Soldatenzeitung, a Munich, Germany, newspaper.

General Walker.

No; I don't know him.

Mr. Liebeler.

Did you ever talk to him?

General Walker.

Not that I know of.

Mr. Liebeler.

Did you talk to him on a transatlantic telephone call in which you told him about the fact or the alleged fact that Lee Harvey Oswald was the person who made an attempt on your life?

General Walker.

I don't recall that name. Did he speak English? I don't speak German.

Walker avoids answering the questions:

Mr. Liebeler.

Have you ever seen a copy of that newspaper?

General Walker.

Yes; I have.

Mr. Liebeler.

In fact, I suggest that you have seen the November 29, 1963, copy of that newspaper which had on its front page a story entitled in German "The Strange Case of Oswald", that told about how Oswald had allegedly attacked you.

General Walker.

November 29, that is correct.

Mr. Liebeler.

Now, where did that newspaper get that information, do you know?

General Walker.

I do not. There was all article in the paper that he probably got from me.

Mr. Liebeler.

Well, in fact, the issue of that newspaper has right on the front page what purports to be a transcript of a telephone conversation between you and some other person.

General Walker.

Thorsten?

Mr. Liebeler.

Yes. Hasso Thorsten, is that the man?

General Walker.

He called me in Shreveport.

Avoids the question.

Mr. Liebeler.

When were you in Shreveport?

General Walker.

He called me the morning of November 23, 1963, about 7 a.m.

Mr. Liebeler.

That is when you gave him this information about Oswald having attacked you?

General Walker.

I didn't give him all the information--I think the portion you are referring to, I didn't give him, because I had no way of knowing that Oswald attacked me. I still don't. And I am not very prone to say in fact he did. In fact, I have always claimed he did not, until we can get into the case or somebody tells us differently that he did.

Who would need to tell him differently?

General Walker.

Well, starting back to make the record clear, I had a speaking engagement in Hattiesburg, Miss., either the 18th or 19th of November. I went from there to New Orleans and stayed 2 or 3 days. I was in the airplane between New Orleans and Shreveport about halfway, when the pilot announced that the President had been assassinated. I landed in Shreveport and went to the Captain Shreve Hotel and stayed there two nights and returned to Dallas and was walking into my house, just about the time of the immediate rerun of the shooting of Oswald. I had been out of the city on speaking engagements.

How did the German newspaper get his telephone number at the Captain Shreve Hotel to call him at exactly 7:00 AM?

The answer to this question will never be known, but I think it is highly possible that Walker made the arrangements to speak with the German newspaper that broke the story that was later supported by Marina Oswald and was a major basis for the conclusions of the Warren Commission's "lone nut" assassin.

The timming of the McCloy/ Walker correspondance was a topic of a very early post of mine. At the time that I "discovered" the letter from McCloy I was so new to this topic that I did not even know that McCloy was a member of the Warren Commission. After the Walker bio was found this letter was the next peice to a puzzle that was laying accross the trail that has gotten me to this point.

Do you believe that Taylor, because he "knows where Oswald is working," directed "the motorcade past that point?"

"Completely plausible that someone had to know and influenced the motorcade planning." Yes, plausible that the motorcade route involved knowledge of Oswald's workplace, but that hardly means that the Chairman of the JCS would pesonally be involved in such a local matter.

"If Taylor was aware of where Oswald was working and "helped" to direct the motorcade along that path then Maxwell Taylor pulled off the perfect murder" would be an interesting "if then" statement for debate, don't you agree?

.

"It would take me hours to explain WS 117L in connection with why the U-2 may have been a planned operation along with Tiros/Midas, Corona and Samos projects, the Army Missile Program, Walker, Taylor, etc., etc." I'll look forward to that explanation.

Provided to a point....

You've even explained the 1927 reference, which at first glance seemed off to me. You do seem to be implying that Taylor played Walker to a degree, the realization of which began to dawn on Walker during the last stages of the assassination events.

Yes, see above testimony excerpts.

Jim Root

Edited by Jim Root
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I haven't read the long post yet (sorry Jim-I will) but I see Jim Root's logic immediately.

Two points stand out. Highly, highly classified debates over Army versus Civilian (Nasa) control of high tech satellites, a line of contested authority between New Frontier Camelot types and hardline Cold War military spy activists.

Two, after the good 1960 launches of th4e satellites the U2 was no longer a needed US tool, its risks and escalatory power were now overwhelming its observation platform performance potential.

But it could still be used for a BlackOp to destabilize the Geneva Convention between Kruschev and Eisenhower.

Military CI had a guy named Oswald in Atsugi who was someone the US Army CI could send over, task him with a leak from where he worked on U2 radar, so that the U2 would be vulnerable.

With the satellites doing the heavy lifting, the U2 and Gary Powers could be used for a darker mission. Ed Walker, Taylor's trusted extremist, takes Oswald through a quick debriefing and egress from Finland/ingress to USSR with U2 grounding plans. This is plausible, but how well supported?

Dulles has same idea, shorts the U2 fuel, so Powers runs out of fuel, in close flak.

With classification the way it is -- this is a reasonable scenario of what is unavailable to historians.

Edited by Shanet Clark
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I haven't read the long post yet (sorry Jim-I will) but I see Jim Root's logic immediately.  I did my best, and spent much time and effort, and am not inclined to revisit issues clearly dealt with earlier in this thread.Two points stand out. Highly, highly classified debates over Army versus Civilian (Nasa) control of high tech satellites, a line of contested authority between New Frontier Camelot types and hardline Cold War military spy activists.

Two, after the good 1960 launches of th4e satellites the U2 was no longer a needed US tool, its risks and escalatory power were now overwhelming its observation platform performance potential.  The timing of the satellite launches is misstated above.  The first satellite with geopolitical ramifications was the Corona in August, 1961.But it could still be used for a BlackOp to destabilize the Geneva Convention between Khrushchev and Eisenhower.

Military CI had a guy named Oswald in Atsugi who was someone the US Army CI could send over, task him with a leak from where he worked on U2 radar, so that the U2 would be vulnerable.  So that the U-2 could plausibly be argued as having been shot down, when nothing of the sort happened.

With the satellites doing the heavy lifting, the U2 and Gary Powers could be used for a darker mission.  Ed Walker, Taylor's trusted extremist, takes Oswald through a quick debriefing and egress from Finland/ingress to USSR with U2 grounding plans. This is plausible, but how well supported? The details of Oswald's ingress into Finland are highly questionable.Dulles has same idea, shorts the U2 fuel, so Powers runs out of fuel, in close flak.

With classification the way it is -- this is a reasonable scenario of what is unavailable to historians.

I want to be clear that the red ink insertions in the above quoting of Shanet's post are mine. There are numerous issues re-raised that we dealt with already. Jim and I can disagree about our speculations over the political ramifications and/or benefits a successful Paris Summit may have provided Nixon in 1960. I think he tries to have that one both ways. As for advanced information-sharing by Taylor that would subsequently be appreciated by JFK, it is not human nature to reward or appreciate a loose-lipped conspirator such as he describes. When he says: "But evidence does seem to indicate that Kennedy was well advised on issues that were of such a high security level (Bay of Pigs planning), that he was not privy to in his intelligence briefings, that it is not such a large jump to believe that someone was providing him this information," it ignores the history that Nixon reasonably accused Dulles of leaking the Bay of Pigs conspiracy to candidate Kennedy, despite Dulles' subsequent denial. Regardless, everyone in Little Havana knew about the preparations.

Jim asked: "Do you think the ongoing show trial of Francis Gary Powers, played out in the nightly press, during the campaign period was a help or a hindrance to Nixon?" I think the show trial would help, the same as bin Laden's pre-election video helped Bush. Don't blame me for the outrageously mindless American electorate. I analyze it, I don't validate it. Pure contrarian child psychology all the way.

Frankly, I've grown tired with this debate, as it keeps returning to the unfounded assumption that the U-2 was shot down in the first place. Similarly, the "attack" against Walker has no support but his own assertion, which admittedly dismisses Oswald as the assailant. If this was all for the purposes of framing a patsy, that would by definition raise the possibility that Walker staged the incident himself. Either way, it's useless to argue the point so conveniently from both sides. I also find the argument that Walker was simply portraying a right-wing nut as part of a larger master plan, and that the alleged shooting was intended to cement his bona fides in this regard to be an unsupported overreach. I mean no disrespect.

Finally this statement by Jim: "If Taylor was aware of where Oswald was working and 'helped' to direct the motorcade along that path then Maxwell Taylor pulled off the perfect murder would be an interesting 'if then' statement for debate, don't you agree?" No, I frankly find it outlandish that Taylor, even if he were the choreographer of the assassination, would be as hands-on as this. I also find, Jim, that you are arguing both sides of Taylor and Walker being in league with each other, and Taylor making Walker a half-knowing patsy.

Tim

Edited by Tim Carroll
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  • 4 weeks later...

Tim

In Did the "Big Fish" know, Where Oswald was working? you state, "Mr. Root is arguing that the CIA knew where LHO was working and therfore the CIA was involved in the plot. I don't think there is a sufficient nexus here. If my analysis above is correct, I think it necessarily follows that Ruth Paine was involved, but we do not know who was directing her."

I wanted to bring back this thread to explain that I am not saying, "therfore the CIA was involved in the plot." As this thread show my hypothisis has always leaned toward Maxwell Taylor being the major player. But the hypothisis only works if Taylor has access to the information dealing with where Oswald was working. The Morley articles in the "Big Fish" thread show that the information from agent Hosty was being passed up the "food chain" and was available to those that would be monitoring Oswald. My Seridipity thread discribes how and why I believe that Walker may have met Oswald on October 9, 1959. Because of Walker's 30+ year relationship to Maxwell Taylor, Walker was the man chosen by Taylor to meet Oswald while he was traveling to Helsinki.

Once again from Robert Charles-Dunne' post

Mr. Lawson:

But the route that was chosen was chosen because it was the consensus of opinion that it was probably the best route under the circumstances. It allowed us 45 minutes to go from the airport to the Trade Mart at the speed that I figured the President would go from past experience with him in advances, and as a regular working agent riding in a followup car. It allowed us to go downtown, which was wanted back in Washington, D.C.

[WCH IV page 326]

Not the CIA Tim, Taylor.

Jim Root

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  • 2 years later...
Tim

I will try to add more tomorrow about the various issues you have brought back up.

The Taylor Walker connection....imagine for a moment.....Oswald, who I do not believe was a "nut" in the Warren Commission sense, is connected to the

U-2 "downing." Walker had passed information to Oswald which allowed him to enter Russia through the only embassy in Europe that he could (Helsinki).......

Jim Root

Jim,

Sorry for jumping in this late in the thread, but can you explain how Walker passed info to Osawld which allowed him to enter Russia?

Thanks,

BK

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duplicate

Edited by John Dolva
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I believe that Edwin Walker was a GREAT war hero

"I have found nothing in his character/ military career that leads me to believe anything else until his "Pro Blue Program."

1957-1959 Commanding General, Arkansas Military District (Little Rock) -

During which time he was ordered, against his will, in fact he resigned but the resignation was rejected, to integrate Little Rock school.

"1961 resign.ed [because of right-wing opinions]"

- He was re-assingned to a principal Military role in the Pacific, to Hawaii. He then resigned because he saw it as an ongoing muzzling of the military, which in fact was him countermanding an Order from the President that foreign Policy was first and foremost the civilian authority's resposnsibility, iow the Commander in Chief elected by the people, not individual Army Generals.

1962-Pres. John Kennedy and Atty. Gen. Robert Kennedy had waged a bitter battle from Sept. 30 to Oct. 3, 1962, at the University of Mississippi. The integration of one Black student brought in the U.S. Army and caused Gen. Edwin Walker to be confined. He was an insurrectonist who responded to a call to arms to prevent desegregation i Oxford Mississippi. He led the insurrection personally.

"Yes, I believe that Edwin Walker was a GREAT war hero and my research leads me to believe a "patsy" himself. He may well be the ideal Professional Soldier that follows orders, without question, and is willing to sacriface his life in the line of duty for his country without question"

-No, he resigned twice because he did not want to follow orders and in both cases an indication of his Right Wing stance. In the end he was an insurrectionist.

After his (final) resignation he became for many the mythical 'white knight on a horse' that would lead the white race to supremacy.

"How did the German newspaper get his telephone number at the Captain Shreve Hotel to call him at exactly 7:00 AM?

The answer to this question will never be known, but I think it is highly possible that Walker made the arrangements to speak with the German newspaper that broke the story..."

I think this can be known. -the phonecall: Munich, Germany, was to the Nazi newspaper Deutsche National Zeitung un Soldaten-Zeitung.

"Gerhard Frey: publisher of the Neo-Nazi Deutsche National-Zeitung und Soldaten-Zeitung.

Ally of Maj. Gen Willoughby/Weidenbach, Theodor Oberlander, was the German commander of the Ukraine's Nightingales during the war and wrote for Frey's newspaper".

A number of the Ukranian death squads were brought to New Jersey with the help of such as Willoughby.

"General Edwin Walker and the Hitler Nazis.: The Eagle's Nest, now a mountain restaurant, was given to Adolf Hitler by nazi aide Martin Bormann for the fuhrer's 50th birthday. It is not far from Hitler's former summer home in Berchtesgaden.Nearby is the Platterhof Hotel, built for guests when they came to pay their respects.

The Platterhof has changed its name to the General Walker Hotel."

__________________________________________________

There are important questions about the leadership of General Mark Wayne Clark ( Gen. Walkers superior officer) during World War II.

"was the youngest officer to become lieutenant-general in 1943, and was given command of the US Fifth Army shortly before the Salerno landings in Italy in September 1943. In December 1944 he assumed command of the 15th Army Group, putting him in command of all Allied ground troops in Italy. His conduct of operations remains controversial, particularly the attack on Monte Cassino, the slow progress of conquering Italy, and the failure to entrap and capture German units during the Battle of the Winter Line, when Clark sent his units towards Rome, in an attempt to be the first to enter the city, rather than to exploit a gap in the German positions. As a result of Clark's actions, the Gothic Line was not broken for another year, and the provisional governments and safe areas which the Allies had encouraged the Italian Partisans to set up were smashed by the German Army, at great loss to the partisans."

(Here one should consider the roles of JJ Angleton.)

At the war's end Clark was Commander of Allied Forces in Italy and, later, U.S. High Commissioner of Austria. Returning home, he commanded the U.S. Sixth Army."

"In 1954, he had been appointed by former President Herbert Hoover to chair a task force to investigate the Central Intelligence Agency and other intelligence organizations of the U.S. government...and spoke frequently on the threat of Communism and the need for greater U.S. military preparedness. In the 1960s, he renewed the friendship with Eisenhower that had been strained during the Korean War"

_______________________

a curiosity from 1961 Clarion Ledger (image)a Robert Oswald versus Gen. Walker on "the youth of America"

Edited by John Dolva
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Guest Eugene B. Connolly

Has anyone ever seen the film 'Suddenly' which stars Frank Sinatra as the

would be assassin of an unnamed president. Wasn't Lee Harvey Oswald

once quoted as having said that this film 'Suddenly' was his favourite film?

EBC

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