Andrew Prutsok Posted June 1, 2018 Share Posted June 1, 2018 Apologies for making the same point Ty did. I had not read through the entire thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted June 1, 2018 Share Posted June 1, 2018 1 hour ago, Ron Ecker said: Vince, I remember reading somewhere a statement by deputy police chief M.W. Stevenson (I'm almost sure it was him, but it's not in his WC testimony) that it was a Secret Service agent named Grant who showed up and reduced the number and changed the location of the motorcycles. (All that Stevenson says about Grant in his testimony is that it was Grant who told him that JFK had been shot.) Can you comment on this? Thanks in advance. Ron, David Grant wrote an after-action report of his activities vis a vis JFK's visit to Dallas. Report of David B. Grant, White House Detail Volume XVIII of the Hearings and Exhibits pp. 789-790. https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh18/html/WH_Vol18_0402a.htm In it, he makes no mention of giving Stevenson any instructions. However, if you read his report in conjunction with the combined after-action report of Batchelor, Stevenson and Lumpkin in the DPD Archives, Box 14, Folder# 4, Item# 10 as cited in the City of Dallas Archives – JFK Collection, http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box14.htm you'll notice that Grant is heavily involved in the security arrangements for JFK's visit. On page 2 of this thread, Vince quotes Fritz's WC testimony of getting a call at home from Stevenson at 10:00 PM on the 21st, telling him (Fritz) that his assignment in the motorcade had been changed, and to go to the "speaker's tent". (I'm not sure what "speaker's tent" Fritz is referring to here. According to the Batchelor, Stevenson, Lumpkin report, Stevenson was in charge of the security at the Trade Mart. I'm not sure why he would be making changes to the motorcade itself. (Is Fritz lying here?). On page 12 of that BSL report, it says that Lawson reduced the number of motorcycles at a 3:00 PM meeting on the 21st. David Grant is an interesting person. I once tried to solve the mystery of the Saturday, November 21st 12:35 interrogation of Oswald. In Grant's after-action report, he makes no mention of attending an interrogation of Oswald at 10:35 on Saturday the 23rd. Fritz's handwritten notes (supposedly contemporaneous) lists the attendees at the 10:35 interrogation on the 23rd. The name Grant is listed with a question mark behind it, http://www.jfklancer.com/docs.maps/fritz2-5.jpg Fritz's report of Oswald's interrogations. DPD Archives Box 15, Folder# 1, Item# 111, page 6 http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box15.htm Fritz wrote that U.S. Marshal, Robert Nash was present, but does not mention Grant. Papers of Will Fritz Interviews With Lee Harvey Oswald on November 23, 1963 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=29106 The document starts out, “At about 10:35 AM, November 23, 1963, Lee Oswald was interviewed ...” 10:35 is crossed out and 12:35 was written above it. The conclusion of the Interview was changed from 11:30 to 1:10 PM, and the conclusion of the evening Interrogation was changed from 7:10 PM to 7:15 PM (to more closely mirror Kelley's Report). I believe that this is another example of someone going in and trying to alter a document after it was written. The names Grant, U.S. Marshall Robert Nash, Senkel and Tiernon? (probably Turner) have been crossed out. Appendix XI of the Warren Report p. 626. This is Thomas Kelley's Report of Oswald's interviews He does show that Bookhout of the FBI, SA David Grant, U.S. Marshal Robert Nash, SAIC Sorrels, and Officers Boyd and Hall, were at the 10:35 interview, which he calls the first interview. (the first for him). https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946#relPageId=650&tab=page So, was Grant there for an interrogation of Oswald at 10:35 on the 23rd, or not? Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ecker Posted June 1, 2018 Share Posted June 1, 2018 Steve, Thanks. I wish I knew where I saw Stevenson's statement about Grant and the motorcade. As I recall it involved a meeting at night about the motorcade, and Stevenson identified Grant as the person who said "that's too many" when told of the planned motorcycles. But this is all from memory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micah Mileto Posted June 1, 2018 Share Posted June 1, 2018 When did the concept of rear shooters in the Dal-Tex and Dallas County Records building originate? In a traditional "turkey shoot", wouldn't two or more shooters be situated right next to eachother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted June 1, 2018 Share Posted June 1, 2018 In his Playboy interview, Garrison talked about a sniper team in the Dal Tex, TSBD and on the grassy knoll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Wagner Posted June 1, 2018 Share Posted June 1, 2018 (edited) On 6/1/2018 at 12:59 PM, Micah Mileto said: When did the concept of rear shooters in the Dal-Tex and Dallas County Records building originate? In a traditional "turkey shoot", wouldn't two or more shooters be situated right next to eachother? Micah... though not a definitive answer to your question, here's a related thread https://goo.gl/hVjXL4 I haven't been able to find much info on these two photos. The first image is from the December 1963 issue of POST https://goo.gl/FJ5hkN and the second one, taken from a higher floor, is one of a series taken from this location by Shel Hershorn https://goo.gl/yCgQtd What and who prompted these photos to be taken is certainly an interesting question. Edited July 25, 2018 by Greg Wagner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Palamara Posted June 2, 2018 Author Share Posted June 2, 2018 9 hours ago, Steve Thomas said: Ron, David Grant wrote an after-action report of his activities vis a vis JFK's visit to Dallas. Report of David B. Grant, White House Detail Volume XVIII of the Hearings and Exhibits pp. 789-790. https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh18/html/WH_Vol18_0402a.htm In it, he makes no mention of giving Stevenson any instructions. However, if you read his report in conjunction with the combined after-action report of Batchelor, Stevenson and Lumpkin in the DPD Archives, Box 14, Folder# 4, Item# 10 as cited in the City of Dallas Archives – JFK Collection, http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box14.htm you'll notice that Grant is heavily involved in the security arrangements for JFK's visit. On page 2 of this thread, Vince quotes Fritz's WC testimony of getting a call at home from Stevenson at 10:00 PM on the 21st, telling him (Fritz) that his assignment in the motorcade had been changed, and to go to the "speaker's tent". (I'm not sure what "speaker's tent" Fritz is referring to here. According to the Batchelor, Stevenson, Lumpkin report, Stevenson was in charge of the security at the Trade Mart. I'm not sure why he would be making changes to the motorcade itself. (Is Fritz lying here?). On page 12 of that BSL report, it says that Lawson reduced the number of motorcycles at a 3:00 PM meeting on the 21st. David Grant is an interesting person. I once tried to solve the mystery of the Saturday, November 21st 12:35 interrogation of Oswald. In Grant's after-action report, he makes no mention of attending an interrogation of Oswald at 10:35 on Saturday the 23rd. Fritz's handwritten notes (supposedly contemporaneous) lists the attendees at the 10:35 interrogation on the 23rd. The name Grant is listed with a question mark behind it, http://www.jfklancer.com/docs.maps/fritz2-5.jpg Fritz's report of Oswald's interrogations. DPD Archives Box 15, Folder# 1, Item# 111, page 6 http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box15.htm Fritz wrote that U.S. Marshal, Robert Nash was present, but does not mention Grant. Papers of Will Fritz Interviews With Lee Harvey Oswald on November 23, 1963 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=29106 The document starts out, “At about 10:35 AM, November 23, 1963, Lee Oswald was interviewed ...” 10:35 is crossed out and 12:35 was written above it. The conclusion of the Interview was changed from 11:30 to 1:10 PM, and the conclusion of the evening Interrogation was changed from 7:10 PM to 7:15 PM (to more closely mirror Kelley's Report). I believe that this is another example of someone going in and trying to alter a document after it was written. The names Grant, U.S. Marshall Robert Nash, Senkel and Tiernon? (probably Turner) have been crossed out. Appendix XI of the Warren Report p. 626. This is Thomas Kelley's Report of Oswald's interviews He does show that Bookhout of the FBI, SA David Grant, U.S. Marshal Robert Nash, SAIC Sorrels, and Officers Boyd and Hall, were at the 10:35 interview, which he calls the first interview. (the first for him). https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946#relPageId=650&tab=page So, was Grant there for an interrogation of Oswald at 10:35 on the 23rd, or not? Steve Thomas David Grant was ALSO Clint Hill's brother in law. He passed away in late 2013 and the men evidently had a falling out, as Hill is not even mentioned in Grant's obituary, yet Gwen, his sister-in-law and still married to Clint, is. Grant refused to participate in Gerald Blaine's now-scrapped movie...that could be a large part of it. Another reason could be that the Hill is "with" his much younger co-author Lisa Mccubbin! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Palamara Posted June 2, 2018 Author Share Posted June 2, 2018 Please see my latest post Secret Service security and press coverage for JFK pre-11/22/63 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ecker Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 (edited) 13 hours ago, Steve Thomas said: Ron, David Grant wrote an after-action report of his activities vis a vis JFK's visit to Dallas. Report of David B. Grant, White House Detail Volume XVIII of the Hearings and Exhibits pp. 789-790. https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh18/html/WH_Vol18_0402a.htm In it, he makes no mention of giving Stevenson any instructions. The meeting at police headquarters on the night of the 21st (page 2 of Grant's report) is the meeting I'm thinking of where (according to what I remember reading) Stevenson said that Grant told them there were too many motorcycles. EDIT: Okay, I found what I was trying to remember, in Vince's Survivor's Guilt. Stevenson stated in his report that the Secret Service said at the meeting on the night of the 21st for the motorcycles to "stay to the rear." It's the report by Asst Chief Charles Batchelor that says the SS told them at that meeting that there were too many motorcycles and that two on each side, about even with the rear fender, would be sufficient. And the agent who said this was Lawson, not Grant. https://books.google.com/books?id=YA4CBAAAQBAJ&pg=PT131&lpg=PT131&dq=m.w.+stevenson+david+grant&source=bl&ots=A7G7kf4iYc&sig=sY40mcJjDxRUHdmz_SF_VjW7SuI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi3itiXnrTbAhWyxVkKHbu8CikQ6AEINDAD#v=onepage&q=m.w. stevenson david grant&f=false Edited June 2, 2018 by Ron Ecker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Bulman Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 (edited) On 6/1/2018 at 12:41 AM, Ron Bulman said: I've thought # 1 most likely since first reading Vince's book years ago. He didn't come right out and say it then but talked of it being presented as a security test. Agent Ready on the right front running board, right next to Roberts riding shotgun in the follow up car started to respond like Clint Hill. Roberts called him back. Just one example. Regarding who would have approached them, obviously superiors, but as you mention why would they go along. Abraham Bolden spoke of some agents not caring about JFK's safety for various reasons. If any of them were persuaded he was a treasonous Communist appeaser... About the superiors part, if you go all the way to the top of the Secret Service, as in the Secretary of the Treasury, one might think he had brought loyal trusted aides of may years experience on Wall Street with him to fill key lower posts. JFK appointed a few Republicans to key posts trying to placate his opponents. But he ignored their advice. Secretary of the Treasury C Douglass Dillon was tight with Allen Dulles through Wall Street, , the Council on Foreign Relations, and the East Coast Establishment Power Elite overall. As Marie Fonzi once noted and David Talbot so eloquently demonstrated in The Devil's Chessboard, Dulles did not loose all of his power at the CIA when JFK fired him. If, as some suspect, a few people within the CIA were involved in the assassination, well, there is potentially, possibly, (speculation on my part) a pipeline there from the CIA to key Secret Service personnel to stand down in Dallas. There were a couple of guys further down the chain of command with intelligence links. Deputy Chief of the SS Paterni was OSS in World War II, serving with Angleton and Rocca in Milan Italy maintaining his Secret Service position at the time in the War. He'd been in the SS since the late 30's. Lawson, the advance agent, coordinating things on site eight days before the parade was in the Army Counter Intelligence Corps before joining the SS. SG, pgs. 324 & 313. Edited June 2, 2018 by Ron Bulman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linda Giovanna Zambanini Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 20 hours ago, Ron Ecker said: Vince, I remember reading somewhere a statement by deputy police chief M.W. Stevenson (I'm almost sure it was him, but it's not in his WC testimony) that it was a Secret Service agent named Grant who showed up and reduced the number and changed the location of the motorcycles. (All that Stevenson says about Grant in his testimony is that it was Grant who told him that JFK had been shot.) Can you comment on this? Thanks in advance. 20 hours ago, Ron Ecker said: Vince, I remember reading somewhere a statement by deputy police chief M.W. Stevenson (I'm almost sure it was him, but it's not in his WC testimony) that it was a Secret Service agent named Grant who showed up and reduced the number and changed the location of the motorcycles. (All that Stevenson says about Grant in his testimony is that it was Grant who told him that JFK had been shot.) Can you comment on this? Thanks in advance. It was SA David Grant. He did advance work in Dallas - is the oft forgotten partner of Lawson - and some reports say he was in on one of the Oswald interrogations, though i don't think he ever wrote a report about it. I think Vince said he was Clint Hill's brother-in-law. He died a few years ago. Here are some links to photos of him, an obit and a video. I queued up the video to begin at the point where he's helping load the casket onto AF-1. https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/washingtonpost/obituary.aspx?fhid=4443&n=david-b-grant&pid=168833469https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1nIqthuIUY&feature=youtu.be&t=32 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 Security for the Trade Mart was assigned to Deputy Chief, M.W. Stevenson Security for Love Field was assigned to Deputy Chief, N. T. Fisher Security for traffic related issues related to the motorcade was assigned to Deputy Chief, R. H. Lunday In his WC testimony, http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/lawrence.htm Captain, Purdue Lawrence told the Commission on two or three occasions that responsibility for guarding against assaults on JFK that were not traffic related, e.g. someone throwing something at JFK, were given to the Special Service Bureau and the CID. The Special Service Bureau was headed by Captain, W.P. “Pat” Gannaway. This was a semi-autonomous Bureau that reported directly to Police Chief, Jesse Curry. The CID, or Criminal Investigation Division, took in the Homicide and Robbery, Juvenile, Burglary, Auto theft, and Forgery Bureaus. Gannaway seems to have delegated his responsibilites to his subordinates. In the DPD Archives, there ware reports to Gannaway from Lieutenants T. Ingargiola and Eric Kaminsky. DPD Archives. Box 1, Folder# 11, Item# 7. Report typed, by Lieutenant T. Ingargiola. Photocopy of a report to Captain W. P. Gannaway concerning security at the Trade Mart listing officers assigned, (Photocopy), 12/17/63. 2 pages 00000333 01 11 007 0333-001.gif 0333-002.gif http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box1.htm 50 men were requested for security for the first floor of the Trade Mart. “We had a total of 71 officers.” guarding the President against a guest list of 2,500 invited guests. DPD Archives. Box 1, Folder# 11, Item# 8. Report typed, by W. P. Gannaway. Photocopy of a report to Assistant Chief Batchelor listing officers assigned to the Trade Mart, (Photocopy), 12/18/63. 1 page 00000334 01 11 008 0334-001.gif http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box1.htm 15 officers from the Special Service Bureau were assigned to the Trade Mart. DPD Archives. Box 4, Folder# 1, Item# 6. Information Report, by E. Kaminski. Report to Captain W. P. Gannaway listing officers assigned to the motorcade, (Photocopy), 12/11/63. 00001132 1 page 04 01 006 1132-001.gif http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box4.htm 14 men were assigned, only on Main St., stationed a block apart, on foot, guarding the President against potentially tens of thousand of members of the general public. Where are the snipers on rooftops? Whether by design, or by negligence, it seems to me that the priorities were screwed up here. Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ecker Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 57 minutes ago, Linda Giovanna Zambanini said: It was SA David Grant. He did advance work in Dallas - is the oft forgotten partner of Lawson - and some reports say he was in on one of the Oswald interrogations, though i don't think he ever wrote a report about it. I think Vince said he was Clint Hill's brother-in-law. He died a few years ago. Here are some links to photos of him, an obit and a video. I queued up the video to begin at the point where he's helping load the casket onto AF-1. https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/washingtonpost/obituary.aspx?fhid=4443&n=david-b-grant&pid=168833469https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1nIqthuIUY&feature=youtu.be&t=32 Linda, Thanks. As I stated above, my memory was confused about which agent altered the motorcycle arrangement on the night of the 21st. It was Lawson, not Grant. That's according to deputy police chief Batchelor. I still seem to recall, though, Stevenson saying something about Grant in his report on the same meeting. May have been unimportant, but I can't find his report online and don't know where I read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Palamara Posted June 2, 2018 Author Share Posted June 2, 2018 5 hours ago, Ron Ecker said: Linda, Thanks. As I stated above, my memory was confused about which agent altered the motorcycle arrangement on the night of the 21st. It was Lawson, not Grant. That's according to deputy police chief Batchelor. I still seem to recall, though, Stevenson saying something about Grant in his report on the same meeting. May have been unimportant, but I can't find his report online and don't know where I read it. It appears to have been Lawson. However, as the co-lead advance agent (Lawson's assistant), both working with planner-of-Texas-trip ASAIC Floyd Boring, I wouldn't rule Grant out as far as influence goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Palamara Posted June 2, 2018 Author Share Posted June 2, 2018 7 hours ago, Linda Giovanna Zambanini said: It was SA David Grant. He did advance work in Dallas - is the oft forgotten partner of Lawson - and some reports say he was in on one of the Oswald interrogations, though i don't think he ever wrote a report about it. I think Vince said he was Clint Hill's brother-in-law. He died a few years ago. Here are some links to photos of him, an obit and a video. I queued up the video to begin at the point where he's helping load the casket onto AF-1. https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/washingtonpost/obituary.aspx?fhid=4443&n=david-b-grant&pid=168833469https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1nIqthuIUY&feature=youtu.be&t=32 Thanks, Linda! That is "my" video LOL (well, from my channel) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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