Sarah Stanton spoke to Oswald, holding a Coke, near stairway shortly before witnessing motorcade, according to Stanton relative....

[Jim Hargrove]

17 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Late edit: Mrs. Stanton's story actually played into the lone shooter theory which was well established with the FBI early on and even more so in  the spring of 1964 when Mrs. Stanton was interviewed by the FBI. So, why would the FBI suppresss a testimony in which Lee is seen by another Depository employee to go upstairs, and even saying that he was going upstairs and will not have a lunch. This would fit with Lee Oswald's plan to kill the President - he went downstairs and then went back upstairs to accomplish his misdeed. Yet, the FBI was not interested in anyone hearing Mrs. Stanton's story. Why is it so? The coke is the problem: Mrs. Stanton saw Lee with a bottle of coke very early on, maybe at 12.10, or 12.15 as the latest. However, the made-up second floor encounter also needed a fresh coke (at least so it has been arranged) and that would not fare well with Mrs. Stanton's account.

This is an interesting point.  Written, of course, without any information from Sarah Stanton's family, JA included this in Harvey and Lee:

The Warren Commission concluded that after firing at President Kennedy one
man, "Lee Harvey Oswald," ran down the rear stairs to the 2nd floor and entered the
lunchroom. After being confronted by Truly and Baker (wearing a brown shirt) Oswald
purchased a Coke, left the lunchroom, entered the TSBD office, walked past Mrs. Rob­-
ert Reid with the Coke in hand (wearing a white t-shirt), through the TSBD office on the
2nd floor, down the front stairs, through the foyer, out the building, and then walked 7
blocks east on Elm Street before boarding a city bus (wearing a long sleeved brown shirt
and carrying a grey jacket). In order to reach this conclusion the Commission had to over­-
come the following contradictions:

1) (Harvey) Oswald purchased a Coke shortly after noon before returning to the
1st floor to eat lunch, yet he (Lee Oswald) was seen carrying a full bottle of
Coke at 12:32 pm.  This would have been (Harvey) Oswald's second Coke within a
half hour.
2) (Harvey) Oswald did not have a Coke when seen by Baker and Truly, yet
(Lee) Oswald had a full bottle of Coke when seen by Mrs. Reid only moments
later. When (Harvey) was seen by the reporters in the lobby of the TSBD he
did not have a bottle of Coke.
3) Neither Baker, Truly, nor Mrs. Reid saw (Lee) Oswald carry a grey work jacket
during or after he was seen in the lunchroom, yet he (Harvey Oswald) was seen
on the city bus wearing a grey work jacket.
4) (Harvey) Oswald was seen wearing a brown shirt in the lunchroom, a white t-
shirt in the TSBD office (Lee), and a brown shirt and grey jacket on a city bus
(Harvey).

The above sequence of events was simply not possible with one person.
 

The "Coke problem"

SA James Hosty's notes from Harvey Oswald's interrogation on November 22 at
3:15 pm reflect that he bought a Coke before he ate lunch in the domino room on the
1st floor. Hosty's notes read, "At noon went to lunch ..... went to 2nd floor to get coco­-
cola to eat with lunch and returned to 1st floor to eat lunch." Hosty's notes do not reflect
that Oswald purchased a 2nd coke after being confronted by Officer Baker and Roy Troly in the
2nd floor lunchroom at 12:32 pm.

The following day Hosty wrote a report that contradicted his notes. SA Hosty
reported, "Oswald stated that he went to lunch at approximately noon and he claimed
he ate his lunch on the first floor lunchroom; however he went to the second floor where
the Coca-Cola machine was located and obtained a bottle of Coca-Cola for his lunch."¹¹⁶
Hosty 's carefully worded report made it appear as though Oswald purchased a Coke but never
returned to the 1st floor.
 

NOTE: Oswald's account of his activities as told to Captain Fritz was probably accu­-
rate. Before noon he was on the 5th floor when co-workers Jarman, Norman, and Wil-­
liams rode the elevator to the 1st floor. Williams returned to the 6th floor to eat his lunch
while Norman ate lunch in the domino room and Jarman ate a sandwich while walk­-
ing around the 1st floor. Eddie Piper saw Oswald on the 1st floor at 12:00 noon standing
near the windows overlooking Elm Street. Oswald probably went to the 2nd floor, bought
a Coke, and returned to the domino room where he ate lunch with the "short man"
(Norman). A few minutes later Norman left the domino room to accompany Jarman
outside to watch the motorcade. Oswald was next seen in the lunchroom on the 2nd floor
at 12:25 by Carolyn Arnold and was then confronted at 12:32 pm by Officer Baker and
Roy Truly.

SA Hosty's notes reflect that he, SA James Bookhout, and Captain Fritz were
present during the interview with Oswald. When SA Bookhout wrote his report on
November 25 (allegedly reflecting Captain Fritz's interview of Oswald on November
22 at 3:15 pm), it differed from Hosty's notes and Hosty's report. Bookhout wrote, "He
was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca-Cola from the
soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn
and asked him if he worked there."¹¹⁷ Bookhout's report made it appear as though Oswald
purchased the Coke before he was confronted by Baker and Truly.

The Commission resolved the problem of when Oswald purchased the coke by conclud­-
ing, "He presumably purchased (the Coke) after the encounter with Baker and Truly."¹¹⁸

--from Harvey and Lee, pp. 815-816, Copyright © 2003 by John Armstrong.  All Rights Reserved.

[Guest]

 

[Guest]

22 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Carolyn Arnold did not see Oswald on the second floor. Molina did not, who left at 12:15, nor did Bonnie Richey, nor did Mrs Reid who left at 12:25!!!

Arnold is noted as being part of a group leaving in other witness' statements

She sees Oswald through the glass in an FBI statement of the 24th. This statement is suppressed and fished out by Weisberg a few years later.

15 years after the deed and the HSCA is in full swing her name comes up and she talks to Earl Golz, Anthony Summers and The National Enq.

She refuses to take part in TMWKK

According to her interviews she went back to get a glass of water, as she was pregnant at the time. There are no water facilities of any kind visible in any of the shots of the 2nd floor lunch room. There is no tap, no sink. No water dispenser.

In the Stone film the water fountain is depicted as next to the lunch room door, which is a fairy tale. There was nothing there.

The only visible sign of a water supply was in Gary Murr's FBI drawing he nabbed from NARA: a water cooler in the corridor not far away from the office doors and the lunchroom doors.

The second fl lunch room was off limits to labourers, they could get a coke and that was it. Oswald had his lunch usually in The Domino Room on the first floor.

 

If Stanton talked w Oswald near the stairs (which ones btw??) and with a soda in his hands before the motorcade passed by then that pretty much eliminates the 2nd fl lunch room encounter by itself.

After discussions in private with Larry Hancock I gotta say that there is of course the possibility that Carolyn Arnold saw Oswald 2x, even though the glass of water argument is flawed with a water cooler being present in the corridor before going back to the office/lunch room. 

Molina's report by Senkel.

Or Reid's WC testimony. 

Mr. BELIN. All right. Do you know about what time it was that you left the lunchroom, was it 12, 12:15?

Mrs. REID. I think around 12:30 somewhere along in there

Mr. BELIN. Were you the last person in the lunchroom?

Mrs. REID. No; I could not say that because I don't remember that part of it because I was going out of the building by myself, I wasn't even, you know, connected with anyone at all.

Mr. BELIN. Were there any men in the lunchroom when you left there?

Mrs. REID. I can't, I don't, remember that.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mrs. REID. I can't remember the time they left.

 

 

Carolyn Arnold  may have seen him getting a coke as described by  Sarah Stanton and then seen him later while standing outside. As she is spotted looking around to DalTex in Wiegman and could have easily looked back as well, or pass him while going through the vestibule. But she could have used one to deny the other.

The Stanton story is valuable because she stated to her family that she saw Oswald with a soda and asked him whether he was going to go out for lunch!  Before the motorcade passed by and had his Coke FOR his lunch! Just like Hosty and Bookhout stated.

 

Edited June 20, 2018 by Bart Kamp

[Larry Hancock]

What seems very  possible to me is that Arnold went of her office into the corridor to the water cooler and coming or going saw Oswald in the open area outside the lunchroom which services the corridors, the back stairway which Oswald might well use , the entrance to the lunchroom and of course to the office area.  That would have been well before before the motorcade arrived.   Later, downstairs she saw him again in the area of the TSBD doorway just as the motorcade arrived...as she told the FBI.  That would be essentially the same statement the Supt of the TSBD made to the newspapers the next morning...before he exited the picture.

This would make Stanton's remarks about seeing Oswald with a soda, taking it down to the break room where he was going to eat - and where he and the TSBD employees normally ate - very consistent - along with the remarks of the black employees who recalled him there but obviously became afraid to say so and his own description of seeing them there while he was eating.

All of this would put Oswald on the first floor and certainly not up on the sixth with his rifle preparing for the arrival of the motorcade.

As Bart notes, there will be objections to that, I can't prove it but there are a number of consistencies that suggest it and which also suggest why Arnold, and Stanton might not have wanted to push the issue as the implications of what they had seen became clear.

 

 

[James DiEugenio]

Are we now saying that two witnesses, Stanton and Arnold,  saw Oswald on the first floor, close to when the motorcade was approaching with a soda bottle in his hand?

 

And that the FBI obfuscated both of their stories?

 

[Larry Hancock]

That's not what I was saying Jim,  my thought is that they both saw him with a soda, that he had gotten it to take down to eat with his lunch on the first floor,  some time in advance of the appearance of the motorcade.  Then one of them, Arnold, saw him near the doorway at the time the motorcade was approaching. She stated that to the FBI so that was not obfuscation.  The TSBD superintendent made a similar remark to the press about seeing him in that area.  I don't know that the FBI intentionally obfuscated any of their stories,  they actually put Arnold's remarks in their report.  I don't recall of the superintendent was interviewed by the FBI or not; someone would have to check that.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

That's not what I was saying Jim,  my thought is that they both saw him with a soda, that he had gotten it to take down to eat with his lunch on the first floor,  some time in advance of the appearance of the motorcade.  Then one of them, Arnold, saw him near the doorway at the time the motorcade was approaching. She stated that to the FBI so that was not obfuscation.  The TSBD superintendent made a similar remark to the press about seeing him in that area.  I don't know that the FBI intentionally obfuscated any of their stories,  they actually put Arnold's remarks in their report.  I don't recall of the superintendent was interviewed by the FBI or not; someone would have to check that.

All relevant docs on Roy Truly.

 

Jim if CA saw him in that lunch room then it was while getting a coke for his lunch, at best. He did not consume his lunch there. But that 'drink of water excuse' by her in the Earl Golz interview just doesn't wash at all.

 

 

[James DiEugenio]

Larry: Note Andrej's comments on Stanton at the top of the page.

 

Also, did not Arnold tell Golz that her words were mangled as to the time she saw Oswald on the first floor?

[Larry Hancock]

Disclaimer - my scenario/hypothesis was simply something that made sense to me.  It would involve both women seeing Oswald outside the second floor lunchroom, not in it. and it would involve his having gotten a soda in the lunchroom to take downstairs to eat with his lunch.  It would also be consistent with multiple people seeing him downstairs in the area of the lunchroom and the front entrance area (not discussing inside vs. outside) as the motorcade was arriving.   My supposition would be that knowing Oswald was not upstairs on the sixth floor waiting calmly since noon to take his shot would have been pretty disturbing for those who had seen such things so what they said about it (or didn't) once they thought about it is something I can't second guess.  As with all such things its just something that makes sense to me and after talking about it with Bart I thought I'd share it...can't make any claims to offer absolute proof for it. 

Edited June 20, 2018 by Larry Hancock

[Ron Bulman]

Thank you gentlemen.  Please continue.  "might not have wanted to push the issue as the implications of what they had seen became clear." seems an important aspect to me.  Over the years it's become clear that so many witnesses were intimidated/changed their stories.  I'm trying to remember who the Superintendent of the TSBD was.  Seems a comment by him was important/relevant if I remember right.

[Larry Hancock]

Ron, my apologies...I'm not talking about Truly but by another TSBD executive who was quoted in the newspaper the following day on Oswald and having seen him near a storage closet near the front entrance.  I'm sure someone else will come up with the name and probably a link to the article...after that one article he just seems to fade away.   This isjust  not nearly as fresh in my memory as it once was...

[Guest]

You mean the Vice President of the TSBD Ochus Virgil Campbell?

NYHT Nov 22

 

 

DMN Nov 22

Edited June 21, 2018 by Bart Kamp

[Larry Hancock]

Thanks Bart, that's it.  I don't have any recollection of his being interviewed further but comments about he, Truly and the officer going into the building and seeing Oswald in the area of a storeroom on the ground floor, only later noticing that he was gone from that location always struck me as pretty interesting. 

[Guest]

Campbell did not even talk to the WC, go figure the Pres. of the TSBD and he is not being interviewed.

His statements are all over in comparison with the newspaper reports.

I have read that Truly did an interview at the TSBD in the afternoon of the 22nd which  have not found yet,.

And Campbell is as mysterious as Dougherty.

Edited June 21, 2018 by Bart Kamp

[Ron Bulman]

Thanks also.  How can I forget a name like Ochus?  Maybe because the Warren Omission didn't care about his initial memories of 11/22.  Wasn't this in the New York Herald Tribune on the evening of the 22nd then in the Dallas Moring News the morning of the 23rd?  Maybe I've read the second article was based in part what Kent Biffle (reporter) overheard Truly telling an officer at the time?