Sarah Stanton spoke to Oswald, holding a Coke, near stairway shortly before witnessing motorcade, according to Stanton relative....

[Jim Hargrove]

14 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

To Bart Kamp....

I have to confess that I've been barely paying attention here, but I'm trying to take a little interest....

Just to begin a potential discussion with a bit of clarity, is it your position that the blurry image I'm going to call PrayerSmudge shows--without a doubt--the young man killed by Jack Ruby in Dallas in November 1963 standing on the steps of the Dallas Book Depository at the time of JFK's murder?

 

7 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

Jim, You are being a bit antagonistic, I think. Prayer Person is beyond doubt a person. Your uncharacteristic characterization seems to doubt even that we are talking, for sure, about a person. You are aware of how testy this debate can get, and I have not known you to unnecessarily fan the flames.

Fair enough, Michael.

I'll try to tone it down....

But I have to ask.  Are you absolutely convinced that PrayerSmudge is LHO?

[Jim Hargrove]

Bart Kamp....

I'd like to believe that PrayerSmudge was really LHO.  It would prove the Warren Commission was completely wrong.

Please show me the best image you have of PrayerSmudge as LHO.   You certainly don't have to do it, but I'd LOVE to see it.

Just askin.....

[Michael Clark]

3 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Bart Kamp....

I'd like to believe that PrayerSmudge was really LHO.  It would prove the Warren Commission was completely wrong.

Please show me the best image you have of PrayerSmudge as LHO.   You certainly don't have to do it, but I'd LOVE to see it.

Just askin.....

Cantblameaguuyfortrying

Gettingoutthepopcorn......

[Andrej Stancak]

6 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Please show me the best image you have of PrayerSmudge as LHO.   You certainly don't have to do it, but I'd LOVE to see it.

Jim:

the best frame is perhaps the one posted on Robin Unger's jfkassassinationgallery.com:

The image, of course, is slightly blurred, yet it reveals several features supporting the possibility that Prayer Man was Lee Oswald:

1. It is a male.

2. He wears worker type of clothes of grey colour matching well the shirt and pants worn by Lee on that Friday (Marina Oswald's testimony).

3. The man measures 5'9''  which is Lee Oswald's body height.

4. The hair and hairline of the man are similar to Lee Oswald's features.

5. The posture of this man is featured by his right leg being backward and left leg forward and bent, which are the features seen in Lee's childhood pictures and numerous adult pictures.

This man came out to his spot very late, perhaps just a few seconds before the commencement of Wiegman film as he is not seen at his spot in Hughes film (at least no one has shown him there so far).  Therefore, Prayer Man most likely came out through the glass door after Kennedy's limo passed the building. 

The critics of Prayer Man = Oswald theory have been often pointing to the alternative explanation which was that Prayer Man was Sarah Stanton. There were two ladies on the top landing during the time of the shooting, Mrs. Stanton and Mrs. Saunders. Fortunately, none of the ladies could have possibly posed as Prayer Man. Mrs. Saunders stood close to the glass door in the eastern section of the doorway, and Mrs. Stanton in the cluster of people: Bill Shelley, Billy Lovelady and Otis Williams. While there is only a partial face of a person seen in Altgens6 at her assumed location on the top landing, confirming that she did not stand at the western wall as Prayer Man did, a more convincing proof excluding Mrs. Stanton as Prayer Man comes from the heigh analysis. Mrs. Stanton was too tall to be Prayer Man. There are certainly a number of other issues such as hair colour and shape of her hair and her  overall body build which also dismiss  Mrs. Stanton as Prayer Man. I have posted the recent height analysis on Mrs. Stanon's body height in "Pauline Sanders" thread because I saw that this thread is getting more in direction of the second-floor encounter.  

Sean Murphy provided a logical analysis of possible candidates for being Prayer Man back in 2013. The analysis revealed that there is simply no one else who could be Prayer Man than Lee Oswald. After eliminating now the two uncertain possibilities (Mrs. Stanton, Mrs. Saunders), Sean's question is getting even more impetus. Who was Prayer Man? Points 1-5 on top of my post give enough reasons to pursue Prayer Man = Lee Oswald line.

This is the picture showing Mrs. Stanton as a lady 5'5'' and standing close to Larry (who was not in the doorway, of course) and Buell Wesley Frazier. This analysis excludes Mrs. Stanton as Prayer Man for good.

 

 

Edited June 24, 2018 by Andrej Stancak

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Bart Kamp....

I'd like to believe that PrayerSmudge was really LHO.  It would prove the Warren Commission was completely wrong.

Please show me the best image you have of PrayerSmudge as LHO.   You certainly don't have to do it, but I'd LOVE to see it.

Just askin.....

http://www.prayer-man.com/misc/prayer-man-photos/

My question for you Jim Hargrove is that I'd like to know who this is, Harvey or Lee?

Edited June 24, 2018 by Bart Kamp

[Jim Hargrove]

PrayerSmudge appears to be too heavy-set to be either Oswald.  Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald was 5’9” tall and weighed just 135-150 lbs, probably closer to 135. American-born LEE Oswald was 5’11” tall and weighed about 165 lbs, still quite a bit thinner than PrayerSmudge appears to be, especially in the forearms, PrayerSmudge’s clearest attribute.

PrayerSmudge is not dressed like either Oswald.  

In the photo Andrej showed, PrayerSmudge appears to be wearing a short-sleeved dark shirt, which was worn by neither Oswald on 11/22/63.  HARVEY Oswald famously wore a long-sleeved  dark brown shirt, as described by Bledsoe on the bus, Whaley in the taxi, and others both BEFORE and after he reached the rooming house.

 

LEE Oswald was described by many, including those who saw him enter the green Nash Rambler station wagon on Elm, as wearing a short-sleeved white shirt. 

Neither Oswald wore a short-sleeve dark shirt, as PrayerSmudge appears to be wearing.

Again, this is too bad, because it would be nice if PrayerSmudge was LHO, either LHO, but it doesn’t appear to be so.

Edited June 24, 2018 by Jim Hargrove

[Andrej Stancak]

24 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

PrayerSmudge appears to be too heavy-set to be either Oswald.  Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald was 5’9” tall and weighed just 135-150 lbs, probably closer to 135. American-born LEE Oswald was 5’11” tall and weighed about 165 lbs, still quite a bit thinner than PrayerSmudge appears to be, especially in the forearms, PrayerSmudge’s clearest attribute.

PrayerSmudge is not dressed like either Oswald.  

In the photo Andrej showed, PrayerSmudge appears to be wearing a short-sleeved dark shirt, which was worn by neither Oswald on 11/22/63.  HARVEY Oswald famously wore a long-sleeved  dark brown shirt, as described by Bledsoe on the bus, Whaley in the taxi, and others both BEFORE and after he reached the rooming house.

 

LEE Oswald was described by many, including those who saw him enter the green Nash Rambler station wagon on Elm, as wearing a short-sleeved white shirt. 

Neither Oswald wore a short-sleeve dark shirt, as PrayerSmudge appears to be wearing.

Again, this is too bad, because it would be nice if PrayerSmudge was LHO, either LHO, but it doesn’t appear to be so.

Jim:

Lee Oswald did not wear the same shirt while at work and during PM hours after he went to his rooming house.  He had his long sleeves rolled up to the elbows. The shirt was not stuck in his pants, rather it was loose with both front facings of the shirt out on his pants. This loose shirt makes the impression that he was thicker than he really was. Of note, the shirt Lee wore in the afternoon did not have the front facings as leaves, it was of equal length around its diameter. Also, the shirt Lee wore in the afternoon was much darker than the one he wore in the morning and which is of identical colour as we see in Darnell film.

Warren Commission Exhibits related to Marina Oswald's testimony: 

 

 

 

 

[Jim Hargrove]

Andrej,

Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald wore the same long sleeved brown shirt in the morning and in the afternoon of 11/22/63.  After all,  Det. Sims removed the bus transfer from Harvey’s left shirt pocket at police headquarters.  The transfer had expired at 1 pm.  Why would LHO move an expired transfer from one shirt to another when he was at the boarding house?

The confusion arises, perhaps, because Oswald probably took off his brown shirt when he was moving inventory around at the Book Depository.  A number of witnesses said his undershirt appeared dirty.  At the rooming house, he probably changed that undershirt and put back on the same brown shirt that wasn’t as soiled and that had the bus transfer in the pocket.

American-born LEE Oswald, seen by a number of people entering the Nash Rambler wagon on Elm, was wearing a white shirt and, of course, needed no bus transfer.   

[Guest]

Yeah yeah......keep on dreaming.

[Andrej Stancak]

Jim, there is obviously a confusion about the shirt. Please find here a part fo Cpt. Fritz's notes saying he changed  shirts and trousers. Lee Oswald did not have time to change the shirt earlier because he went to Irving on Thursday with the same shirt he wore on Friday morning. How did the ticket occur in the pocket of his darker shirt, this I do not know, however, it could also be one of Lee's small puzzles he was producing on a continuous basis. He might not have wished that anyone found it when his room would be inspected, or on the contrary, that he couls use it as a proof of his whereabouts. He could also mechanically pull out the ticket from one shirt and put it into another. 

"At appt. Changed shirts + tr. Put in dirty clothes - long  sleeve red sh + gray tr."

 

Edited June 24, 2018 by Andrej Stancak

[Guest]

The bus ride is dubious for various reason, Ed Ledoux did some wicked research on this.

"At appt. Changed shirts + tr. Put in dirty clothes - long  sleeve red sh + gray tr."

Think about it.

He changes his pants and shirt but not his t shirt.......makes no sense whatsoever.

[Jim Hargrove]

Andrej,

Ah, I forgot about Fritz's notes.  Assuming they're honest, you're right about the two shirts.  Thanks.  However, a number of witnesses in the Book Depository, Bledsoe on the bus and Whaley in the cab indicated Harvey Oswald wore a long-sleeved brown shirt, not a short-sleeve shirt.  PrayerSmudge appears to be wearing a short-sleeve dark shirt.  If you think the sleeves were rolled up, do you have any evidence for that?

[Andrej Stancak]

Jim:

I agree that the shirt situation largely depends on inferences without any hard evidence and on relying that certain testimonies were truthful. While I would not call it evidence,  the upper arm above the elbow joint in Prayer Man's figure appears to be quite wide which may be owing to the rolled-up sleeve. It is a subjective perception which many will not agree with and given the lack of details it is difficult to find a judge. 

[Andrej Stancak]

I should add that the diameter of Prayer Man's upper arm is not something which can clearly favor either Lee Oswald or Mrs. Stanton. The problem is the length of the forearm which was unusually long in Prayer Man's figure. It was Lee Oswald who had a very long forearm. In the figure below, the Poser model of Lee Oswald (middle) needed to have his forearm extended by 10 or 15%  compared to a standard male to match Lee's forearm in the NOPD photograph. 

 

Before I place Mrs. Stanton on Prayer Man's location, let me point to the dilemma with any figure posing as Prayer Man who would stand with both feet on the top landing.

Please observe the short distance between Prayer Man's right elbow and the head of the man standing on the third step from the bottom. Of course, the two points (PM's right elbow and the head of the man below) were in fact about two feet apart, however, Darnell shows the distance as almost a touch. This short distance cannot be reproduced once the figure is moved to the inside of the doorway which would happen by placing Prayer Man with both his feet onto the top landing. Further, Prayer Man's elbow would be about two inches higher in a figure 5'2'' on the top landing compared to someone measuring 5'9'' but standing on the second step. The figure below shows the inevitable two inches increment in the height of the forearms just because standing one step apart (7'') and compensating it by small body height (5'2'' compared to 5'9'') does not yield the same vertical locations of homologous body parts.

In case of Mrs. Stanton, we need to add 3'' (this much was she taller than 5'2'') to the 2'' = 5''. The forearm level will be 5'' higher in the figure of Mrs. Stanton posing as Prayer Man compared to Prayer Man we see in Darnell. However, this will move her right elbow even further away from the head of the man standing few steps below.   

 

The forearm problems do not end here. Since Mrs. Stanton would be further to the inside of the doorway than Prayer Man standing on the second step her head would need to be aligned with the vertical edge of the aluminum door frame. This can be achieved, however, only on the cost of moving her closer to the wall. Unfortunately, she will move few inches away from the shadow line and the back of her right hand would not reflect the sunlight any longer. So, we would need to move her few inches westwards to have her right hand exposed to the sunlight. However, this will move her away from the plane crossing the vertical line of the door frame. Besides being too tall to be Prayer Man, Mrs. Stanton would not reproduce the distances from other objects in the doorway.

I will show some images illustrating Mrs. Stanton as Prayer Man soon. However, this small exercise may be useful to appreciate that Prayer Man's location in Darnell s a tight geometric problem which has only one solution. We are lucky that Darnell and Prayer Man yielded this unique combination of spatial relationships. The problem of Prayer Man's height is closely related to his exact location, and the problem is solvable even if it takes some time.

 

Edited June 24, 2018 by Andrej Stancak

[Jim Hargrove]

5 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

The bus ride is dubious for various reason, Ed Ledoux did some wicked research on this.

"At appt. Changed shirts + tr. Put in dirty clothes - long  sleeve red sh + gray tr."

Think about it.

He changes his pants and shirt but not his t shirt.......makes no sense whatsoever.

Bart,

Fritz’s notes also say that Lee HARVEY Oswald said he rode the bus and the taxi.  If we accept Fritz’s notes as honest, then one Oswald clearly rode the bus and taxi while the other Oswald got into that green Nash Rambler.