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57 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Trump is telling us lies to go to war with Iran.

Cliff,

 

Forget Iran. It's those damned Montenegroans (sic?)

They're very aggressive, you know.

 

I believe that there will be an "incident", a "provocation" soon, somewhere. Moscow will claim it's acting in self defense, and the fight is on.

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/trump-calls-out-very-aggressive-montenegro-latest-nato-jibe-n892311

"The president suggested he would be unhappy defending "tiny" Montenegro if it were attacked, calling into question NATO's central principle of mutual defense.

He also questioned whether the country's "very aggressive people" could draw NATO into a war with Russia.

Like other presidents before him, Trump wants smaller NATO members to pull their weight by spending more on their militaries. But he's the first to directly challenge the alliance's mutual defense clause. Critics say that destabilizes one of the foundations of the post-World War II Western world.

"Membership in NATO obligates the members to defend any other member that's attacked," Carlson said. "So let’s say Montenegro, which joined last year, is attacked. Why should my son go to Montenegro to defend it from attack?"

Trump answered: "I understand what you're saying. I've asked the same question.

I've asked the same question. Montenegro is a tiny country with very strong people … They're very aggressive people. They may get aggressive, and congratulations you're in World War III.""

 

Steve Thomas

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21 minutes ago, Kathy Beckett said:

And I've been reading a lot today about his and Tucker's conversation about Montenegro, and their aggressiveness. All 600,000 of them (rolls eyes)  Also read that Putin wants Montenegro, which is why Trump is currently dissing it. We'll see. I sure hope it's not true. But I won't hold my breath.

Mt problem with Trump is that God only knows what he said behind closed doors.  The guy gave classified information to the Russians when they visited the White House. I shudder to think what he told Putin.

 

 

Kathy,

 

The two-hour meeting behind closed doors reminds me of nothing so much as the Family getting together in Appalachia to carve out territory.

 

Steve Thomas

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I don’t care for Trump or his politics, but what is happening to him can and will happen to any unvetted candidate who flukes their way into responsible office. It’s rather grotesque - the mainstream media this past week.

Trump, as usual, was clumsy in his statement, but the scenario he referred to actually did happen back in 2008 when the Russophobic President of Georgia decided to shoot up a bunch of Russian military observers in South Ossetia, possibly with the connivance of officials in the W Bush administration. If Georgia was a NATO member at that time, then truly the fight would have been on, without any pause to determine what actually happened.

Do you people actually think it’s a good idea for troop deployments and missile defence systems directly on Russia’s border? The chance for some kind of tripwire mistake that escalates out of control  will become far more likely and far more dangerous than it ever was in the Cold War. Right now NATO missiles are ten minutes from Moscow. That is an extremely dangerous situation in an atmosphere of tension. Like him or not, Trump is right - these tensions must be resolved. The people who instead want to escalate tensions are insane and yet they have the floor.

In one of his interviews, Fletcher Prouty described metaphorically a classic covert trick to manufacture desired outcomes: You are sitting at a table next to someone you have already decided will be your adversary.  Under the table, you kick him in the shin. He pushes you back in response. You point your finger and say to the rest of the table : “aggression!”  Prouty added that the Tonkin Gulf false flag was the classic example of this procedure.

What many Americans do not understand is that in the Ukraine four years ago Russia was kicked in the shin. It was obvious at the time. Everything in the public record supports this understanding. And yet the loudest voices since have been the finger pointers shouting “Aggression! Aggression!”

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I never thought the prospect of nuke war between the two largest Caucasian majority countries amounted to much.

The white race is going to commit auto-genocide?

No, I never thought much of that happening.

Putin punked us, and Trump has his back.  Where is there a hot war in any of this?

For a century the American right used the Soviets to demonize American liberals.

Payback's a bey-otch.

 

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On 7/17/2018 at 4:25 PM, Jeff Carter said:

As a Canadian, I have perhaps a bit more objectivity on all this.

Were the DNC servers HACKED or was it a LEAK? The Meuller/Democrats/media side say hacked, and hold the Russians responsible. Julian Assange says the information came to him as result of a leak (inside job), and he is backed by British diplomat Craig Murray who also had direct involvement. A group of former US intelligence personnel known as VIPS also hold the opinion that it was a leak due to technical restraints. This group includes William Binney, who is perhaps the person, of anyone, most familiar with cyber capabilities. The FBI never examined the servers in question and so all the allegations of hacking appear based on the work of a private company under the employ of the Democratic Party. Personally, I believe Assange, Murray, and the VIPS people to have more integrity than the other side. 

The constant repetition that the US Intelligence community as a whole endorses the conclusion that Russia hacked and meddled in the election is not correct, as can be determined by simply reading the January 2017 document itself. Hand-picked members of three agencies made this assessment, and the assessment, in their own words, is far from definitive and might actually be wrong (their words). And yet many Democrat politicians and large portions of the major media continue to repeat false information about this.

The Indictment last Friday was clearly a politically motivated attempt to scuttle the Trump/Putin meeting, and it joins other dialogue-preventing mechanisms historically such as the Powers U2 incident, except this time the meeting still happened. There is no expectation that this Indictment will ever go to trial and therefore be tested through due process - in fact the Indictment itself has been handed to the Justice Department’s National Security Division which never takes its work to a courtroom. (https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/07/muellers-latest-indictments-russians-politicized-pointless/) (I do not endorse this columnists viewpoint, but the information about the Indictment and the Justice Dept is important for context).

The demonization of Putin has been deliberately manufactured and enforced, again, by constant repetition. When it comes to extra-judicial murder by state actors, the United States is far and away the biggest offender - with a drone program responsible for thousands of targeted deaths including a disturbing amount of collateral damage (I.e. innocent bystanders). The U.S. led destruction of Iraq and Libya were far more serious breaches of international order than Crimea.

According the Mueller, the budget for the entire Russian election meddling and hacking operation amounted to about $200,000. Total spending for the entire 2016 election process has been estimated at over six billion dollars. It is absurd to think that such small scale and arguably negligible activity nearly tore down the foundation of American democracy, and yet many persons of influence apparently believe this. The United States and it 5-Eyes partners, including Canada, in fact run the largest, most widespread, and thorough hacking, cyber-meddling, and information retrieving operation on the planet by a large margin. So the hysteria over the alleged Russian activity is wildly disproportionate.

Mueller hasn’t said anything.

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On ‎7‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 5:35 PM, Cliff Varnell said:

Jeff, allow me to clarify my position.  Here are the 6 reasons (in my view) Hillary Clinton lost the 2016 election, in order of significance:

1) the Republican voter suppression campaign led by Kansas Sec. of State Kris Kobach, including restrictive Voter ID laws and voter registration purge programs like Crosscheck.  300,000 voters in Wisconsin disenfranchised, a half million in Michigan and another half million in North Carolina --- 7 million mostly minority voters nationwide.

2)  James Comey and the New York office of the FBI with the utterly phony reopening of Clinton's e-mail investigation 11 days before the election.  Trump was on the ropes down double digits in the polls...and then the last 11 days was an unrelenting stream of anti-Clinton news coverage.

3)  Hillary Clinton's poor campaign.

4)  Bill Clinton's poor judgement meeting AG Loretta Lynch at the airport.

5)  Cable news obsession with Trump hiked their ratings.  Trump got billions of dollars in free advertising, his lies were rarely countered.

6)  Vladimir and Julian Show. 

All 6 of the above had to happen for Clinton to lose.

Putin punked the American public.  Without all that other stuff it would have amounted to a prank. 

I'm not mad at Putin -- I'm pissed at Traitor Trump.

The Democrats were forced from the executive, giving Republicans control over new appointments to the Judiciary.

It was regime change in 1968 when Thieu torpedoed the Democratic peace deal; regime change in 1980 when the embassy hostages were kept to advantage Reagan; regime change in 2000 when the Democrats were Fox'd out of the White House; and then 2016.

Soft coup d'état.

Agreed, see above.

Due to the regime change in 2000 the Republicans put judges on the Supreme Court who allowed unlimited spending on campaigns.

Elections have consequences.

Trump had no business meeting Putin under these circumstances.

The hysteria is of Trump's own making.

Interesting, I know a great deal of people in Michigan who voted Obama who voted for Trump and I think its fair to say I have a good understanding of the politics and culture in Michigan.  You have to understand what Michigan has gone through economically.  Naw, instead call it voter suppression.  Prove it was voter suppression.  but it was you say.  Why?  Because people ineligible to vote were not allowed to vote?  Ugh, the nerve of the law.  No, Trump appealed to people who had been forgotten, left behind, without hope.  He gave them hope that things could get better, that jobs were not just for attorneys, doctors, accountants, but for everyone.  Again, let me be clear, I know democrats who voted for Trump.  They did not want to admit it but did.  The FBI issue and Hillary lying again, and again, and again, that did not help.

Amazing, no one wants to admit that.  The voters were not stupid.  As a trial lawyer, the worst thing that can happen is your client can get caught in a lie - which is why you tell them never to lie.  The best thing is when I catch the other side in a lie.  Once you lie, no one trusts you.  In the courtroom it means everything.  Hillary lied and lied and lied, and people noticed.  That is what helped Trump.  So say Trump did not win, Hillary just lost it.  Fine.  Keep feeling bad about the election, look for answers, I know what happened.  I recall I was involved heavily in the 2008 and 2012 elections in Nevada.  Obama won easily here.  Why?  Was it voter fraud?  No.  Why do Republicans refer to everything as voter fraud and Democrats refer to it as voter suppression?  Regardless of the votes, the loser cries about this.  GET OVER IT!

President Trump won because he reached out to voters.  How many times did Hillary go to Michigan compared to Trump?  Look it up.  You will have your answer.

"His lies were rarely countered"

That was funny, I guess MSNBC, CNBC, NBC, CBS, ABC, the View, etc. don't count?  Every day they punched at him over anything he said.

Sorry, you don't like him.  You got him till 2020.

Now did JFK steal the election?  Umm... another story.  

And if anything I said offended you, not meant to.  

Edited by Cory Santos
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Corey,  this thread isn't about re litigating the 2016 Presidential election. We did that in great detail after the 2016 election. But in trying to update your most salient point. So am I to assume now all your friends in Michigan are part of the great "Trump economic boom"  and are getting jobs at higher wages than before? If so, I would imagine that's because they're relatively newer to the work force,  because wages haven't increased and I would suspect that the vast majority of the older disenfranchised work force who voted for Trump in Michigan aren't near as lucky.
 
And I'm going to school a lawyer here, I thought using of all people Mike Tyson, a known wife beater, and Don King, one of the most quintessential  known boxer promoter scumbags (as purported by no less than Muhammed Ali), as examples of blacks who voted for Trump made a very poor argument. I realize you cite these people because you have ties to the "biz." But these guys are not to be emulated as exemplary informed voters and often such voters will vote for a candidate like Trump for no other reason, then the prospect of paying less taxes.
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I forgot to mention because it was a long time ago, your example of a black voter for Trump, Don King was charged with killing two people in incidents 13 years apart. In 1954, King shot a man in the back after spotting him trying to rob one of King's gambling houses; this incident was ruled a justifiable homicide.[1] In 1967, King was convicted of nonnegligent manslaughter for stomping one of his employees to death.[1][2] For this, he served three years and eleven months in prison.[2] After being released, he was later pardoned in 1983.[3]

Wikipedia

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8 hours ago, Cory Santos said:

Interesting, I know a great deal of people in Michigan who voted Obama who voted for Trump and I think its fair to say I have a good understanding of the politics and culture in Michigan. 

Yeah?  Tell me how many folks in Michigan hold FHA mortgages.

Trump's first official act was to cancel a $500 a year tax break for lower income FHA loan holders, affecting three quarter million households nationwide.

Trump screwed over a bunch of his own voters.

8 hours ago, Cory Santos said:

You have to understand what Michigan has gone through economically. 

When Trump pulled out of the Iran nuke deal oil prices spiked.

How those gas prices treatin' y'all?

Trump threatens putting tariffs on autos  -- but I guess Michigan is a state that doesn't worry about that industry much.

8 hours ago, Cory Santos said:

Naw, instead call it voter suppression.  Prove it was voter suppression. 

Study Greg Palast.

https://www.gregpalast.com/election-stolen-heres/

8 hours ago, Cory Santos said:

 

but it was you say.  Why?  Because people ineligible to vote were not allowed to vote?  Ugh, the nerve of the law. 

 

Laws that make it difficult or impossible for millions to vote?

That's what I call treason.

8 hours ago, Cory Santos said:

No, Trump appealed to people who had been forgotten, left behind, without hope.  He gave them hope that things could get better, that jobs were not just for attorneys, doctors, accountants, but for everyone.  Again, let me be clear, I know democrats who voted for Trump.  They did not want to admit it but did.  The FBI issue and Hillary lying again, and again, and again, that did not help.

Trump has always been the reigning champ of liars, so that couldn't have been a problem.

Besides, what they did with Hillary was criminalize both the fog of war and a lax institutional culture.

Hillary did a terrible job sticking up for herself, and I'm sure as hell not going to pick up any of that slack.

8 hours ago, Cory Santos said:

Amazing, no one wants to admit that.  The voters were not stupid. 

Lots of intelligent people are gullible.

8 hours ago, Cory Santos said:

 

As a trial lawyer, the worst thing that can happen is your client can get caught in a lie - which is why you tell them never to lie.  The best thing is when I catch the other side in a lie.  Once you lie, no one trusts you.  In the courtroom it means everything.  Hillary lied and lied and lied, and people noticed.  That is what helped Trump.  So say Trump did not win, Hillary just lost it.  Fine.  Keep feeling bad about the election, look for answers, I know what happened.  I recall I was involved heavily in the 2008 and 2012 elections in Nevada. 

 Yeah?  I made my bones in Reno back in the early 80's, helped start hardcore punk rock as a "thing."

We were political as hell, and I like to think we played a small part in turning Nevada from red to blue.

8 hours ago, Cory Santos said:

Obama won easily here.  Why?  Was it voter fraud?  No.  Why do Republicans refer to everything as voter fraud and Democrats refer to it as voter suppression?  Regardless of the votes, the loser cries about this.  GET OVER IT!

This is the operative definition of "false equivalency."  There is no appreciable voter fraud and voter suppression is the civil rights battle of the 21st century.

8 hours ago, Cory Santos said:

President Trump won because he reached out to voters.  How many times did Hillary go to Michigan compared to Trump?  Look it up.  You will have your answer.

"His lies were rarely countered"

That was funny, I guess MSNBC, CNBC, NBC, CBS, ABC, the View, etc. don't count?  Every day they punched at him over anything he said.

I binge watch the Donald J. Trump Show.  Have for 3 years.  I wish I had a buck for every time Trump or his surrogates claimed he opposed the Iraq War when the talking head would not correct them.

He lied about Obamacare and the economy and the Iran nuke deal with impunity.  For a start...

8 hours ago, Cory Santos said:

Sorry, you don't like him.  You got him till 2020.

We'll see if there's an appetite for treason.  If not, he won't serve out his term.

When Mueller brings his report it's gonna be shock and awe...that's what my crystal ball sez.

8 hours ago, Cory Santos said:

Now did JFK steal the election?  Umm... another story.  

And if anything I said offended you, not meant to.  

 

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OMG,  in heaven.

All that Cory said was this:  Trump ran a very smart campaign and he won the electoral college vote.  He kept Clinton out of the south, save Virginia.  He then took down parts of the blue wall in the north.  He visited those states much more often than HRC did.  

Michael Moore predicted in advance that this was going to happen.  That the people in the north who were hurting were going to tell the Democrats to stuff it: What did Obama do for me?

But no one would listen. In addition, only three of the 21 polls got it right. Huffpo said there was  a 97 per cent change of Clinton winning. It was a lock. If you watch the election night returns from 2016--and there are many of these reels on You Tube--all the so called pundits were rocked.    

They were wrong. Clinton had twice as much money as Trump. Let me say that again: Trump was outspent 2 to 1.  He did not have nearly as many employees as Clinton.  But he ran a smarter campaign.  Which the MSM completely missed since they never took him seriously anyway.

In my view, Russia Gate is a direct reaction to this shock to the system.  Its a way of getting back for an embarrassing flub.  

There is, of course, a parallel here with the JFK assassination.  They missed that one too, and they will abide by no one telling them they were wrong.

 

 

Edited by James DiEugenio
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29 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

OMG,  in heaven.

All that Cory said was this:  Trump ran a very smart campaign and he won the electoral college vote.

On the morning of October 28, 2016, the Donald J Trump campaign was in the toilet.  He was down double digits in the polls.  He was complaining about the election being rigged, spoke openly of losing.

Two stories dominated the cable news shows -- the Access Hollywood tape, and Trump's refusal to release his tax returns.

Then the Comey letter hit.  FBI chief James Comey notified the Benghazi railroad court some sex pervert had a bunch of Hillary's emails on his computer and for the last 11 days of the campaign that's all cable news talked about.

Was it "very smart" for Trump to have the FBI rig the last 11 days of an election, fine.

Without the Comey letter the last 11 days would have been about Trump grabbing pussy.

Quote

He kept Clinton out of the south, save Virginia.  He then took down parts of the blue wall in the north.  He visited those states much more often than HRC did.  

Michael Moore predicted in advance that this was going to happen. 

Lucky guess.  Without Comey he'd have been dead wrong.

Quote

 

That the people in the north who were hurting were going to tell the Democrats to stuff it: What did Obama do for me?

Other than expanded access to health care and a much healthier economy than the one he inherited?

Net neutrality, the Iran nuke deal, the opening to Cuba, the first time (in 2015) the bottom 5th in income enjoyed more progress than the top 4/5s.

Quote

But no one would listen. In addition, only three of the 21 polls got it right.

Hillary won the popular vote by 2%.  4%+ of the electorate was disenfranchised by the GOP voter suppression campaign.

Do the math.

Quote

 

 

Huffpo said there was  a 97 per cent change of Clinton winning. It was a lock. If you watch the election night returns from 2016--and there are many of these reels on You Tube--all the so called pundits were rocked.    

They were wrong. Clinton had twice as much money as Trump. Let me say that again: Trump was outspent 2 to 1.  He did not have nearly as many employees as Clinton.  But he ran a smarter campaign.  Which the MSM completely missed since they never took him seriously anyway.

Oh really?

CNN/MSNBC/Fox teased his speeches relentlessly, even showing an empty stage in the corner of the screen.

Trump's empty stages got more airtime than anyones policy presentations.

Parallel to the JFK assassination?

Spare me...

 

 

Edited by Cliff Varnell
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Trump's genius was turning The News into a reality TV show.

The Donald J. Trump Show! Starring Donald J. Trump! Featuring the Lovely Ivanka!

Folks who never watched this show have no business trying to opine on what kind of campaign Trump ran, Jim.

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1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

OMG,  in heaven.

All that Cory said was this:  Trump ran a very smart campaign and he won the electoral college vote.  He kept Clinton out of the south, save Virginia.  He then took down parts of the blue wall in the north.  He visited those states much more often than HRC did.  

Michael Moore predicted in advance that this was going to happen.  That the people in the north who were hurting were going to tell the Democrats to stuff it: What did Obama do for me?

But no one would listen. In addition, only three of the 21 polls got it right. Huffpo said there was  a 97 per cent change of Clinton winning. It was a lock. If you watch the election night returns from 2016--and there are many of these reels on You Tube--all the so called pundits were rocked.    

They were wrong. Clinton had twice as much money as Trump. Let me say that again: Trump was outspent 2 to 1.  He did not have nearly as many employees as Clinton.  But he ran a smarter campaign.  Which the MSM completely missed since they never took him seriously anyway.

In my view, Russia Gate is a direct reaction to this shock to the system.  Its a way of getting back for an embarrassing flub.  

There is, of course, a parallel here with the JFK assassination.  They missed that one too, and they will abide by no one telling them they were wrong.

 

 

So you consider racist appeals to the worst instincts of the worst Americans, backed up by Russian subterfuge "smart?" Seems to lean more  toward "evil," "vile" or "traitorous."

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I found it interesting how the final question of the Helsinki press conference, a direct request to Trump to endorse the substance of Mueller’s two indictments of Russian persons - one on election meddling and the other on email hacking - became in effect a loyalty oath. And when Trump refused to directly answer, and spouted some reasons why the indictments might be lacking, that became the specific reason that the immediate charges of “Treason!” started to thunder across the commentariat and are continuing. It wasn’t Treason due to breaching the Constitution, it was treason because he would not accept the “truth” of an untested Indictment or accept the “word” of a small portion of the Intelligence community loyal to Brennan, Clapper, Hayden, etc - persons who actually have breached your Constitution and lied about it.

I don’t know why Comey released those emails late in the election cycle, but he can’t be said to be a Trump guy and if anything was tied to the “deep state” faction lining up behind Hilary. There have been hints of intense internal divisions within the FBI at that time. I would suggest Comey’s move was a reactive measure to stave off some other event which would have had more far-reaching consequences.

Terrible as it is, “racist appeals to the worst instincts of the worst Americans” have been part of the political playbook since the beginning.

I’m glad Hilary lost - she was assembling a national security team of neoliberal hegemonic globalists who gave every indication they were preparing to seize the moment and apply massive military force to reverse perceived geopolitical setbacks and directly confront Russia and China while they still held military superiority. The TPP trade agreement was also set to be ratified with no public debate or input, which would have codified a neoliberal corporatist economic structure resistant to any reform or reevaluation.

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2 hours ago, Andrew Prutsok said:

So you consider racist appeals to the worst instincts of the worst Americans, backed up by Russian subterfuge "smart?" Seems to lean more  toward "evil," "vile" or "traitorous."

Andrew said this  to Jim Di.^

Yes, let's just say in 2016, I learned  through Jim's continual switching of alliances, that I'd never want Di Eugenio in my political foxhole. Nine months into the Bernie Sanders campaign , he was actually a supporter of Hillary Clinton! Which from things he had previously written, left me rather stunned and I asked him at one point if he had checked out the Sander's campaign. Ok to his credit he did say he eventually voted for Sanders in the primary. He later said he voted for Green Jill Stein. I can't really knock that. I voted for Ralph Nader in 2000.

But then after the Election results, he sort of parachuted in as an avid  Trump supporter, using post election gloating video clips from no less than Anne Coulter!! And yes ,no longer a word about the race baiting or Trump's appealing to the base instincts of the voters to this very day!.

At the time I thought it might be a calculated political move to  sway right leaning forum members for an upcoming conference of which he was a guest speaker. As you might understand, I view any of Jim's 180's with great skepticism.

 

 

Edited by Kirk Gallaway
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