Jump to content
The Education Forum

133a: THE SHADOW UNDER OSWALD'S NOSE


Recommended Posts

 Much gets made of the nose shadow because it seems to be directly under the nose as if it was noon, but all the other shadows do not. First thing I want to point out is that Oswald is looking slightly to his left. This caused the tip of his nose to swing off center. If you run a line from the tip of his nose to the bottom of the shadow you get about a 3 degree shadow angle. So the shadow being directly at the centerline does not mean there is no angle visible.
The next thing to consider is the approx 3 to 4 degree tilt of his head which cancels out that amount of shadow. So we can account for up to 7 degrees of shadow angle from the photo.
  How much angle we should see is less about the elevation of the Sun and more about the azimuth. That does not sound correct but consider this. When a person is facing directly toward the Sun's position their shadow will fall directly under the nose with zero angle. The only difference elevation makes when looking toward the Sun is the length of the shadow. If you turn 90 degrees away, perpendicular to the Sun, the elevation is fully represented in the shadow angle. 50 degrees of elevation will create a 50 degree shadow angle. Because Oswald is only facing about 10 degrees away from the Sun the azimuth comes much more into play.
 The azimuth is pretty obvious because we can see the post shadow creeping out from the side of the post by about one degree. Assuming a camera distance of 10 feet puts Oswald at 9 degrees away from the post. Include the extra degree we see in the post shadow puts Oswald at 10 degrees angle off the azimuth. Elevations between 40 and 50 degrees will create a shadow angle that increases by one degree for every degree of rotation away from the azimuth(At least for the first 25 degrees or so, then it tappers off.) That gives us 10 degrees of shadow angle but we have to subtract 3 degrees for his head tilt and 3 more degrees because although his body is 10 degrees away from the post, his face is looking about 3 degrees away, back towards the Sun. In the end we should see about 3 degrees of angle from the tip of the nose and that is what I measure. It seems that the shadow is pretty much exactly as it should be

Edited by Chris Bristow
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On August 28, 2018 at 6:20 AM, David Josephs said:

Here was something I did after I noticed the shadows were the same... yet the nose shadows aren’t.  

Also, all the shadows run right to left, except for the nose in the byp 

8B32C5EF-13CD-4DAF-85C9-BD68BCAB864A.thumb.jpeg.5acc1c4f3de2582c6c21f9430aaffa0f.jpeg

I have edited this post and added an image. Notice how the shadow on the ground  which lies on a horizontal surface has an angle very different from the shadow on the face of the box that is cast onto a vertical object. One runs down and left and the other up and left.
  I find that the nose shadow is correct in relation to the shadow behind the post. But the shadow on the ground leans out to far even when taking into account that the angle of the camera to the shadow can increase the angle we see by 2 1/2 to 3 times. Still not enough to explain it. So to me the nose is correct, it is his body's shadow that I still can't figure out.

 

Edited by Chris Bristow
Link to comment
Share on other sites

In the card board box demonstration of shadows, I have a question.  Why is the cardboard strip representing Oswald's nose, I assume, not in the center of the box?  The cardboard strip is not centered and projects farther than it should if it represents a nose, hence distorting the shadow effect.

Pay more attention to David Josephs' reasoning.  He is essentially correct except there are shadows in BYP 133a or others that run from picture left  to picture right.  As an example look at the shadows under the steps which are on the ground. 

I use picture left as the side you would be holding in your left hand if you were viewing the photo in both hands.  

Edited by John Butler
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, it doesn't really matter whether the cardboard strip is off to the side or placed in the center of the box.  Good.  This confirms and validates what I said years ago when I posted on 3 conflicting shadows in the BYPs.  The nose and body shadow has different directions indicating different times of the day when the two shadows were photographed.  This is what I meant when I said the shadow patterns conflict and it is unescapable and real.  It is irrefutable. 

Throw in the other conflicting shadows from the stairs and you have the whole story of conflicting shadow directions.  The BYPs are fake as demonstrated by many people over time.

Edited by John Butler
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Still seems to me one is correct and one isn't

1492473258_noseshadowsandthebox.jpg.eeabf87d7790a3cb06727f43a8fcb566.jpg

David, I rotated the box to closer reflect Oswald's  angle off the Sun. I also tilted the box a bit to simulate Oswald's tilt because that cancels 3 degrees of shadow angle.


 The angle you have in the green BY image matches the head tilt. But check out the the BY face I included. The image is rotated to straight up yet there are still 5 degrees of shadow angle visible From the tip to shadow bottom. To get the actual shadow angle we would have to add that 5 degrees  to the angle you're showing above.

The other Oswald image has such a different sun angle  I don't think we can use it. Oswald is almost 70 more degrees off the azimuth.


I noticed that trying to compare the direction of the ground angle to the nose can be misleading. I could move left two feet and completely hide the ground shadow while there would be little or no change to the nose shadow.  In fact I just realized I could walk around to the right side of the box and i would start to see the ground shadow lean to the right instead of the left while the nose shadow would not change much. I just ran back outside and double checked this theory and it is true. I can make the ground shadow change by almost 130 degrees. The nose barley changed. What do you think?

I do think the ground shadow is a mismatch to the azimuth implied by the post shadow by about 20 degrees, but I see no problem with the directions of the nose vs ground shadow

boxcomp.JPG

Edited by Chris Bristow
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, John Butler said:

So, it doesn't really matter whether the cardboard strip is off to the side or placed in the center of the box.  Good.  This confirms and validates what I said years ago when I posted on 3 conflicting shadows in the BYPs.  The nose and body shadow has different directions indicating different times of the day when the two shadows were photographed.  This is what I meant when I said the shadow patterns conflict and it is unescapable and real.  It is irrefutable. 

Throw in the other conflicting shadows from the stairs and you have the whole story of conflicting shadow directions.  The BYPs are fake as demonstrated by many people over time.

John, read my last response to David. The fact that I can change the ground shadow 130 degrees by moving from a few feet  while the nose shadow barley changes means there is something more to be considered when you see conflicting shadows. The nose shadow falls on a vertical surface so it does not change as I move around the box.

The two shadow having different angles does not mean it is fake. When I swung around to the right side of the box the ground shadow leaned right while the nose shadow was still leaning left! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just verified that I can walk around the box, a full 360 degree circle and the ground shadow changed by 360 degrees. You can make it face toward you, away or 90 degrees to either side. Of course to make Oswald's shadow point straight towards you , you would be standing next to the picket fence and would not see the nose.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As people discuss the shadows there is agreement that they don't all add up. But there are different opinions on just exactly how wrong they are. So here is my question for everyone. If the angles and directions of the shadows were all correct what would you expect to see? Exactly what direction and specific angle would you see for the nose and body shadows?

Please base your answer on the following specs which are all close estimates.

1. Oswalds face was 8 degrees away from the Sun.(Based on the post shadow for reference. This agrees with the HSCA position.)

2. Oswald's head was tilted 3 or 4 degrees back towards the Sun.( depends on just how rotated the camera was.)

3. The Sun's elevation was approx 45 degrees.(The exact time of day was not known for sure but it makes little difference since Oswald was facing only 8 degrees away from the Sun. At this elevation you gain one degree of nose shadow angle for every degree that the face rotates away from the Sun.)
 

 

NOTE: The body shadow becomes distorted as you go from above(True angle) to the  distorted angle determined by the distance and height of the camera. The first 15 degrees will distort to  2.5 times it's actual angle. So multiply you answer by 2 1/2 then add another 6 to 8 degrees to account for Oswald's lean which is reflected in the shadow angle.

 

 

 

Edited by Chris Bristow
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...