I Was a Teenage JFK Conspiracy Freak

[Denny Zartman]

1 hour ago, Fred Litwin said:

I thought this was a forum on the JFK assassination, not a forum just for people who believe in conspiracy. You know, I've read hundreds of conspiracy books,  and I would hope that people who believe in conspiracy would at least give my book a try. They might learn somethings. I guess I was wrong.

I've downloaded the sample and am considering buying your book and reviewing it.

[Ron Bulman]

3 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

I've downloaded the sample and am considering buying your book and reviewing it.

So you seriously consider Oswald alone took all five of the shots the HSCA specialists concluded were fired?   The throat shot?  The right front Back And To the Left Shot? 

[Andrej Stancak]

Fred:

welcome to the Forum, and congratulations on your new book. While I am one of the conspiracy buffs, I understand how much work it takes to write a book. 

This particular Forum is a place to debate issues related to JFK assassination. While it is possible to also discuss books on the topic, this assumes that people have purchased a book and wanted to review. There are hundreds of books on JFK assassination and only a very small number of books have been debated here. 

I would like to know how can a lone-nut explanation deal with the observations of several witnesses seeing people and/or puffs of smoke on Grassy Knoll during the shooting. In my view, the witness reports of Jean Hill, S.M. Holland, Lee Bowers, Bill and Gale Newman, J.C. Price, and Ed Hoffman (my list is not complete) cannot be dismissed. Newmans only heard bullets being fired from left and  behind, they did not see any shooters, but they were clear about shots arriving from Grassy Knoll. Did you consider this issue in your conclusions?

Edited September 16, 2018 by Andrej Stancak

[Denny Zartman]

3 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

So you seriously consider Oswald alone took all five of the shots the HSCA specialists concluded were fired?   The throat shot?  The right front Back And To the Left Shot? 

Not at all. I just said I'm willing to read this author's book.

I just finished reading it about ten minutes ago, and am going to jot down a few notes and think about it a little bit before I post more.

[Fred Litwin]

11 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

So you seriously consider Oswald alone took all five of the shots the HSCA specialists concluded were fired?   The throat shot?  The right front Back And To the Left Shot? 

The HSCA said that the shots that hit Kennedy were fired from the TSBD.

 

[Micah Mileto]

2 hours ago, Fred Litwin said:

The HSCA said that the shots that hit Kennedy were fired from the TSBD.

 

The HSCA's interpretation of the skull photographs has the whole 1500 g brain somehow removed through skull cavity that is only 5 inches wide.

[Denny Zartman]

Hi Fred,

I echo Andrej's comments. Welcome to the forum and congratulations on writing your book. I can see you put in quite a bit of effort into it. I found it interesting that you cited Gerald Posner's "Case Closed" as the book that convinced you there was no conspiracy, while it was that same book that first convinced me that there was.

I read it last night, and I'm looking forward to discussing it with you if I may. I'll try to bring up my questions and comments in separate posts instead of bunching them all together in one big post and risk things getting lost. I hope we can have a good conversation.

Location 872 and 891 - In your book you write this regarding David Ferrie:

Quote

Ferrie was found dead in his apartment on February 22nd. The coroner determined he died of natural causes from a berry aneurysm which is a congenital defect. Garrison claimed that it was suicide-and that Ferrie had overdosed on Proloid, his thyroid medication. He convinced a lot of conspiracy nuts, but the coroner knew better, because there was also some scar tissue that indicated that Ferrie had suffered from an earlier bleed. The toxicology results also came back negative.

In Joan Mellen's 2005 "A Farewell To Justice" Pgs 106-107:

Quote

At 11:45 A.M. on that Wednesday, Jimmy Johnson arrived to pick up Ferrie's papers. The door was locked, so Johnson let himself in through a window. Ferrie lay dead, naked in his bed. His false eyebrows were still glued on, which was unlike him. On a coffee table sat two sealed envelopes. One was addressed to his brother Parmely, the other to Gerald Aurillo. Jimmy Johnson saw these two letters. Twenty-five minutes later he noticed that they had disappeared.

There were two typewritten suicide notes in the room. In "Suicide Note A," which was sitting in the typewriter, Ferrie talked of life as "loathsome," and leaving it a "sweet prospect." A "somewhat Messianic district atorney" was "unfit for office," Ferrie writes, as were two judges, J. Bernard Cocke and Federal Judge Herbert Christianberry, who denied "defendants due process of law."

"Suicide Note B," unsigned, was addressed to Alvin Beaubouef. "I offered you love," Dave pleaded to his heir. He was dying, "alone and unloved," for which he blamed Al's girlfriend and future wife, Carol.

...

Coroner Nicholas Chetta knelt down and sniffed the corpse. "Poison! Poison!" he said. But Chetta ruled finally that Ferrie had died of natural causes, a ruptured blood vessel at the base of the brain, a "beury aneurysm." Chetta's verdict did not match Ferrie's recent symptoms, his difficulty in walking, his lethargy. The autopsy was "slipshod," Ferrie's doctor Martin Palmer contends. It was only partial and they did not even open the brain case, casting the beury aneurysm verdict into doubt. Chetta at once reported to the highly interested FBI that "Suicide Note A" was "not a suicide note."

Questions

1. Why didn't you mention the two suicide notes found at David Ferrie's death scene in your book?

2. What do you think of the claims in the last paragraph quoted above, that Ferrie's doctor Martin Palmer says that Ferrie's brain case wasn't opened at his autopsy?

Edited September 16, 2018 by Denny Zartman

[Denny Zartman]

Hi Fred,

In Location 533 of your book you write regarding Lee Harvey Oswald and the Texas School Book Depository:

Quote

After the assassination, he was the only warehouseman missing.

From what I can see, this assertion seems to be false. Charles Givens was also not present, and possibly another person as well.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/truly2.htm

Quote

Mr. BALL. Now, what did you tell Chief Lumpkin when you came down from the roof of the building? 
Mr. TRULY. When I noticed this boy was missing, I told Chief Lumpkin that "We have a man here that's missing." I said, "It my not mean anything, but he isn't here." I first called down to the other warehouse and had Mr. Akin pull the application of the boy so I could get--quickly get his address in Irving and his general description, so I could be more accurate than I would be. 
Mr. BALL. Was he the only man missing? 
Mr. TRULY. The only one I noticed at that time. Now, I think there was one or two more, possibly Charles Givens, but I had seen him out in front walking up the street just before the firing of the gun. 
Mr. BALL. But walking which way? 
Mr. TRULY. The last time I saw him, he was walking across Houston Street, east on Elm. 
Mr. BALL. Did you make a check of your employees afterwards? 
Mr. TRULY. No, no; not complete. No, I just saw the group of the employees over there on the floor and I noticed this boy wasn't with them. With no thought in my mind except that I had seen him a short time before in the building, I noticed he wasn't there. 
Mr. BALL. What do you mean "a short time before"? 
Mr. TRULY. I would say 10 or 12 minutes. 
Mr. BALL. You mean that's when you saw him in the lunchroom? 
Mr. TRULY. In the lunchroom. 
Mr. BALL. And you noticed he wasn't over there? 
Mr. TRULY. Well, I asked Bill Shelley if he had seen him around and he said "No." 
Mr. BALL. Now, you told Chief Lumpkin that there was a man missing? 
Mr. TRULY. Yes; and he said, "Let's go tell Captain Fritz." Well, I didn't know where Captain Fritz was. 

Quote

Mr. BALL. Now, you say that you knew that Givens was not there afterwards? 
Mr. TRULY. I knew he wasn't there at the time of the shooting because I had seen him walk across the street--up the street. 

Quote

Mr. BALL. Now, did Givens come back to the building later? 
Mr. TRULY. I didn't see him--later on he did. 
Mr. BALL. When--how much later? 
Mr. TRULY. Much later--I suppose I don't know his actions during that 
Mr. BALL. Did he come hack to the building? 
Mr. TRULY. No. 
Mr. BALL. After the shooting? 
Mr. TRULY. I can't say--I think he came back to the front of the I can't answer for sure whether he came in the building--I know he was at the police station later on. 
Mr. BALL. I think that's all right now.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/givens1.htm

Quote

Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear? 
Mr. GIVENS. Three. 
Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you heard them? 
Mr. GIVENS. Well, we broke and ran down that way, and by the time we got to the corner down there of Houston and Elm, everybody was running, going toward the underpass over there by the railroad tracks. And we asked--I asked someone some white fellow there, 'What happened ?" And he said, "Somebody shot the President." Like that. So I stood there for a while, and I went over to try to get to the building after they found out the shots came from there, and when I went over to try to get back in the officer at the door wouldn't let me in. 
Mr. BELIN. Did you tell him you worked there? 
Mr. GIVENS. Yes; but he still wouldn't let me in. He told me he wouldn't let no one in. 
Mr. BELIN. This was the front of Elm Street? 
Mr. GIVENS. Yes. So I goes back over to the parking lot and I wait until I seen Junior. 
Mr. BELIN. Is that Jarman? 
Mr. GIVENS. Yes. They were on their way home, and they told me that they let them all go home for the evening, and I said, "I'd better go back and get my hat and coat." 
So I started over there to pick up my hat and coat, and Officer Dawson saw me and he called me and asked me was my name Charles Givens, and I said," yes." 
And he said, "We want you to go downtown and make a statement." 
And he puts me in the car and takes me down to the city hall and I made a statement to Will Fritz down there. 

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/sawyer_j.htm

Quote

Mr. BELIN. I then notice on this radio log---I don't see anything more under 9, at least until after the, well, it is down until we have gone as far as 1:30 p.m., I don't see anything else, do you, sir? 
Mr. SAWYER. No. There is another broadcast in there somewhere, though. I put out another description on the colored boy that worked in that department. 
Mr. BELIN. What do you mean the colored boy that worked in that depository? 
Mr. SAWYER. He is one that had a previous record in the narcotics, and he was supposed to have been a witness to the man being on that floor. He was supposed to have been a witness to Oswald being there. 
Mr. BELIN. Would Charles Givens have been that boy? 
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, I think that is the name, and I put out a description on him. 
Mr. BELIN. How do you know he was supposed to be a witness on that? 
Mr. SAWYER. Somebody told me that. Somebody came to me with the information. And again, that particular party, whoever it was, I don't know. I remember that a deputy sheriff came up to me who had been over taking these affidavits, that I sent them over there, and he came over from the sheriff's office with a picture and a description of this colored boy and he said that he was supposed to have worked at the Texas Book Depository, and he was the one employee who was missing, or he was missing from the building. 
He wasn't accounted for, and that he was suppose to have some information about the man that did the shooting. 

Now...

...at this point I imagine that one might begin to argue "The reason Roy Truly didn't retrieve Charles Givens' address and report him as missing the way he did for Oswald was because Truly saw Givens walking away from the building just before the assassination, and Truly knew that the gunfire directed toward Kennedy's limousine came from the sixth floor of the school book depository."

Truly was across the street just north of the Vice Presidential limo and south of the TSBD, and this is how he testified about what he believed were the source of the shots:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/truly1.htm

Quote

Mr. BELIN. All right.
Then what did you see happen? 
Mr. TRULY. I heard an explosion, which I thought was a toy cannon or a loud firecracker from west of the building. Nothing happened at this first explosion. Everything was frozen. And immediately after two more explosions, which I realized that I thought was a gun, a rifle of some kind.

Quote

Representative FORD. When you noticed the police assembling the employees after the assassination, what prompted you to think that Oswald was not among them? 
Mr. TRULY. I have asked myself that many times. I cannot give an answer. Unless it was the fact that I knew he was on the second floor, I had seen him 10 or 15 minutes, or whatever it was, before that. That might have brought that boy's name to my mind--because I was looking over there and he was the only one I missed at that time that I could think of. Subconsciously it might have been because I saw him on the second floor and I knew he was in the building. 
Representative FORD. Had there been any traits that you had noticed from the time of his employment that might have made you think then that there was a connection between the shooting and Oswald? 
Mr. TRULY. Not at all. In fact, I was fooled so completely by the sound of--the direction of the shot, that I did not believe still did not believe maybe I could not force myself to believe, that the shots came from that building until I learned that they found the gun and the shells there. So I had no feeling whatever that they did come from there. I am sure that did not bring Oswald in my mind. But it was just the fact that they were trying to get people's names. 

There are some things that seem odd to me.

Truly doesn't know the exact number of his warehouse employees.

We're not even paying attention to the dozens of other employees that were working inside the TSBD on November 22, 1963. How many of them were absent? How many of them were outside to watch the motorcade and then not allowed inside the TSBD afterward by police, as per Charles Givens' statement quoted above?

Truly says "one or two" other warehouse employees could be missing along with Oswald, Givens "possibly" among them. Yet the only employee that Truly saw fit to get the address of and report to authorities was Oswald, a man that Truly KNEW was inside the TSBD minutes after the shooting that Truly believed came from WEST of the TSBD.

Something doesn't add up.

Do you have any evidence you can cite for your statement that Lee Harvey Oswald was the only warehouseman missing from the TSBD after the assassination?

[Sandy Larsen]

On 9/12/2018 at 1:11 PM, François Carlier said:

Dear Mister Litwin,
I can't wait to buy your book.
I'm sure it will be full of common sense, logic and critical thinking.
I'll always remember your famous article "A conspiracy too big ? Intellectual dishonesty in the JFK assassination", which had a great impact on me and was one of the first to contribute to opening my eyes (about 23 years ago).
I am for ever grateful to you.
Congratulations !

 

Francois sais pas, raisonnement no do....

 

[Fred Litwin]

2 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

Hi Fred,

I echo Andrej's comments. Welcome to the forum and congratulations on writing your book. I can see you put in quite a bit of effort into it. I found it interesting that you cited Gerald Posner's "Case Closed" as the book that convinced you there was no conspiracy, while it was that same book that first convinced me that there was.

I read it last night, and I'm looking forward to discussing it with you if I may. I'll try to bring up my questions and comments in separate posts instead of bunching them all together in one big post and risk things getting lost. I hope we can have a good conversation.

Location 872 and 891 - In your book you write this regarding David Ferrie:

In Joan Mellen's 2005 "A Farewell To Justice" Pgs 106-107:

Questions

1. Why didn't you mention the two suicide notes found at David Ferrie's death scene in your book?

2. What do you think of the claims in the last paragraph quoted above, that Ferrie's doctor Martin Palmer says that Ferrie's brain case wasn't opened at his autopsy?

The autopsy was quite clear that Ferrie was suffered from a berry aneurism which is a congenital defect. He did not commit suicide.  The so-called

suicide notes just aren't suicide notes. In fact, they can't be, since he didn't commit suicide. There is a reason we do autopsies.

[Fred Litwin]

1 hour ago, Denny Zartman said:

Hi Fred,

In Location 533 of your book you write regarding Lee Harvey Oswald and the Texas School Book Depository:

From what I can see, this assertion seems to be false. Charles Givens was also not present, and possibly another person as well.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/truly2.htm

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/givens1.htm

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/sawyer_j.htm

Now...

...at this point I imagine that one might begin to argue "The reason Roy Truly didn't retrieve Charles Givens' address and report him as missing the way he did for Oswald was because Truly saw Givens walking away from the building just before the assassination, and Truly knew that the gunfire directed toward Kennedy's limousine came from the sixth floor of the school book depository."

Truly was across the street just north of the Vice Presidential limo and south of the TSBD, and this is how he testified about what he believed were the source of the shots:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/truly1.htm

There are some things that seem odd to me.

Truly doesn't know the exact number of his warehouse employees.

We're not even paying attention to the dozens of other employees that were working inside the TSBD on November 22, 1963. How many of them were absent? How many of them were outside to watch the motorcade and then not allowed inside the TSBD afterward by police, as per Charles Givens' statement quoted above?

Truly says "one or two" other warehouse employees could be missing along with Oswald, Givens "possibly" among them. Yet the only employee that Truly saw fit to get the address of and report to authorities was Oswald, a man that Truly KNEW was inside the TSBD minutes after the shooting that Truly believed came from WEST of the TSBD.

Something doesn't add up.

Do you have any evidence you can cite for your statement that Lee Harvey Oswald was the only warehouseman missing from the TSBD after the assassination?

Oswald was missing, and he was the guy that Truly noticed was missing. That's what counted. it was important enough for Truly to tell Chief Lumpkin that "we have a man here that's missing." Frazier also testified at the London trial that "everyone was present [at the roll call] except Mr. Oswald. And, of course, he was missing.

[Sandy Larsen]

On 9/12/2018 at 4:53 PM, Michael Clark said:

I have to call foul on the responses here. I think any author who posts here deserves a fail, critical appraisal of his or her work. That cannot be done prior to reading it.

 

Michael,

Some things about Litwin's book CAN be appraised without reading it. Consider this:  There are books written claiming that the moon landing was faked and that the Holocaust never occurred. I don't need to read those books to know that, not only are the authors' conclusions wrong, but that they employed impaired critical thinking to arrive at those conclusions.

(And lest anybody say that lone nutters could use this same argument against JFK assassination conspiracy books... the difference is that in the case of the JFK assassination there were immediate signs of foul play and cover-up, and those signs continued to mount as the public learned more. That was not the case with either the moon landing or the Holocaust. There are other differences as well, but I'll leave it at that.)

That said, I think the author and readers of Litwin's book should be encouraged to present on this forum arguments made in the book so that they can be freely discussed by the members. I suspect that some (possibly many) of those arguments will be found valid, and this might prove useful in ruling out certain conspiracy hypotheses that have been proposed.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

45 minutes ago, Fred Litwin said:

The autopsy was quite clear that Ferrie was suffered from a berry aneurism which is a congenital defect. He did not commit suicide.  The so-called suicide notes just aren't suicide notes. In fact, they can't be, since he didn't commit suicide. There is a reason we do autopsies.

 

And therefore you simply ignore the suicide notes? And their significance?

Especially in light of the fact that Ferry died within a week of  Jim Garrison's investigation becoming public, and Ferrie saying to one of Garrison's aides, " You know what this news story does to me, don't you. I'm a dead man. From here on, believe me, I'm a dead man...."

Why did Ferry say that? Do you just ignore that too?

 

Edited September 16, 2018 by Sandy Larsen

[Sandy Larsen]

35 minutes ago, Fred Litwin said:

Oswald was missing, and he was the guy that Truly noticed was missing. That's what counted. it was important enough for Truly to tell Chief Lumpkin that "we have a man here that's missing." Frazier also testified at the London trial that "everyone was present [at the roll call] except Mr. Oswald. And, of course, he was missing.

 

Isn't it true that there were a number of people missing besides Oswald? I haven't investigated this myself, but have seen other forum members make that claim.

 

[Fred Litwin]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

And therefore you simply ignore the suicide notes? And their significance?

Especially in light of the fact that Ferry died within a week of  Jim Garrison's investigation becoming public, and Ferrie saying to one of Garrison's aides, " You know what this news story does to me, don't you. I'm a dead man. From here on, believe me, I'm a dead man...."

Why did Ferry say that? Do you just ignore that too?

 

They weren't suicide notes. They were notes. They could not have been suicide notes because he did not commit suicide. Just check out what 

Ferrie told David Chandler - he was tired, having headaches, and could barely walk up the stairs. He had already had an earlier bleed and the aneurism killed him. Garrison's coroner did the autopsy - this is all pretty clear.