Alpha 66 and US Army

[Paul Brancato]

I attended a symposium a few days ago where John Newman presented results of his deep dive into Antonio Veciana. He has come to the conclusion that Veciana worked for ACSI, not CIA. Jim D was there, as were a few other forum members like David Josephs, Pat Speer, and Larry Schnapf (sp) I’m hoping that the aforementioned Forum members will corroborate my understanding of Newman’s  presentation on Veciana. If he is right, Alpha 66 and Veciana worked for General Lansdale, who was reporting primarily to Army Intelligence. If this is true, it’s a game changer.

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

I attended a symposium a few days ago where John Newman presented results of his deep dive into Antonio Veciana. He has come to the conclusion that Veciana worked for ACSI, not CIA. Jim D was there, as were a few other forum members like David Josephs, Pat Speer, and Larry Schnapf (sp) I’m hoping that the aforementioned Forum members will corroborate my understanding of Newman’s  presentation on Veciana. If he is right, Alpha 66 and Veciana worked for General Lansdale, who was reporting primarily to Army Intelligence. If this is true, it’s a game changer.

Paul,

 

You might be interested in this thread:

 

Steve Thomas

[Larry Hancock]

Paul,  as early as 2006  I was writing about the Army's relationship with Alpha 66 and citing documents showing that Army counter  intelligence had an interest in Alpha 66 had actually assigned Veciana a source code designation (DUP 748).  It was clear from those documents that the Army's interest was in obtaining tactical intelligence about Russian forces inside Cuba but they were also very interested in obtaining captured Russian or Soviet bloc weapons for evaluation. In his exchanges with Army personnel Veciana had talked of the CIA trying to infiltrate or obtain information from the group but stated they were giving no assistance and that false information had been passed to the CIA. That did not seem to trouble Army CI and I don't recall their sharing that. The exact groups involved in the contact should be visible in the documents I cited.

The Army CI contact began in 1962 and continued into 1963.  If you have SWHT/2010 you might check starting with  p. 51 but its in other places in the book as well. The Army was certainly interested in them and in spring 1963 Army personnel on the new SGA even made a proposal to the Spcial Group to consider using them operationally (this was at a point when everybody was running around trying to find some new approach that had a vague possibility of ousting Castro). The CIA replayed that they felt the group was unreliable and would not be controllable.

In other places in the book I mention a remark on a CIA internal memo which suggests the CIA did have sources with contacts inside the group and advance knowledge of their missions. 

I have never seen any mention of Lansdale or even the the JCS staff special projects group where he served in 62/63 so if you could give a source on that it would be very interesting. 

[Paul Brancato]

Hi Steve and Larry - I’m hoping others who were there last Saturday took notes on Newman’s source re Lansdale. He mentioned ACSI several times. I’ve read elsewhere that Lansdale’s primary ‘boss’ was ACSI. Am I mistaken? It was news to me about Alpha 66/Army. Also, I thought Newman was flat out calling Veciana a xxxx, and that would apply to the whole Oswald/Phillips thing.

What I’m hoping to focus on is the local Dallas Military Intelligence angle, Colonel Jones, Crichton/Brandstetter, etc. so Larry, this brings me closer to seeing the possibility that Cuban exiles in Dallas were directly involved in Dealey Plaza, and that the Army Intelligence connection causes us to pay more attention to military files, and less to the endlessly confusing CIA files. It’s my understanding that the military has been even more secretive than the CIA, and far less forthcoming. And I for one think CIA and ACSI coordinated through General Lansdale. 

Edited December 19, 2018 by Paul Brancato

[Larry Hancock]

From 1957 to 1963, Lansdale worked under the Department of Defense - he was Deputy Assistant Secretary for Special Operations (that staff helped coordinate the use of U.S. military equipment and assets for use in covert operations, by the military and by the CIA). He was a staff member of the  President's Committee on Military Assistance, lastly served as Assistant Secretary of Defense for Special Operations. I don't think any of that has to do with Army Counter Intelligence (ASCI stands for Assistant Chief of Staff Intelligence) which is where the Army/Alpha 66 connection and interest was...based on the documents I recall.

As far as Veciana is concerned, my suspicion was and is that he did meet Phillips in Cuba since Phillips was in contact with the group there that Veciana associated with and which was planning an assassination attempt on Castro.  My assumption was that Phillips reconnected might have with him later but that the association was largely off the books and for Phillip's own information collection and purposes.   I was shocked to see the elaborations in Veciana's recent book and agree that John has done a fine job of demonstrating that Veciana's most recent revelations about being trained as an agent inside Cuba are not something that should be taken seriously...

[W. Tracy Parnell]

31 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

Also, I thought Newman was flat out calling Veciana a xxxx, and that would apply to the whole Oswald/Phillips thing.

It would stand to reason that would be the case if Newman believes Veciana was working for ASCI rather than CIA. Veciana has always claimed he was recruited into the CIA and Bishop/Phillips was his case officer. As Larry says, there has been evidence for some time that Veciana was associated with Army rather than CIA. The CIA did consider using him and he had a cryptonym and a case officer, who was Cal Hicks not Phillips. But for whatever reason, the CIA did not use him.

Newman has previously shown that both Veciana's original 1960 scenario and his 1959 timeline as presented in his book are wrong. So, it looks to me like he never met anyone in Cuba. 

http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2018/07/john-newman-on-veciana.html

BTW, is there no video of this conference forthcoming?

[Paul Brancato]

32 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

It would stand to reason that would be the case if Newman believes Veciana was working for ASCI rather than CIA. Veciana has always claimed he was recruited into the CIA and Bishop/Phillips was his case officer. As Larry says, there has been evidence for some time that Veciana was associated with Army rather than CIA. The CIA did consider using him and he had a cryptonym and a case officer, who was Cal Hicks not Phillips. But for whatever reason, the CIA did not use him.

Newman has previously shown that both Veciana's original 1960 scenario and his 1959 timeline as presented in his book are wrong. So, it looks to me like he never met anyone in Cuba. 

http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2018/07/john-newman-on-veciana.html

BTW, is there no video of this conference forthcoming?

Yes to the video, as Len Oceanic had a film crew there. 

[W. Tracy Parnell]

2 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

Yes to the video, as Len Oceanic had a film crew there. 

Thanks, I'll look forward to that if it is made available publicly. The last presentation was very good.

[Steve Thomas]

3 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

What I’m hoping to focus on is the local Dallas Military Intelligence angle, Colonel Jones, Crichton/Brandstetter, etc.

Paul,

 

In addition to the cast of characters you mentioned, you might add George Lumpkin, George Whitmeyer and L. Robert Castorr.

George Lumpkin:

Headquarters

Department of the Army

26 July 1967

General Orders No. 33

https://www.apd.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/go6733.pdf

Page 5

 

(Go to: Publications, Army General Orders, Pub/Form Number DAGO 1967-33, Click download.)

 

V. Legion of Merit. By direction of the President...for exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding service is awarded to...

 

Colonel George L. Lumpkin. Intelligence and Security, United States Army, July, 1960 – June, 1967

Rode in the pilot car with George Whitmeyer and allowed or didn't notice that people had gathered on the railroad overpass.

Warren Commission Hearings. Vol. XIX p. 106

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=43&search=Mamantov#relPageId=114&tab=page

Ilya Mamantov identified Jack Crichton as a petroleum independent contractor, “and if I'm not mistaken he is connected with the Army Reserve, Intelligence Service.” Five minutes later, George Lumpkin called Mamantov. Thirty minutes before they called Mamantov however, he had called the FBI and offered his services because he knew Oswald and “knew of his background here in Dallas.”

https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKmamantov.htm

(2) Dick Russell, The Man Who Knew Too Much (1992)

"Five hours after the assassination, Ilya Mamantov, who had never met Oswald, received a phone call from Jack Crichton asking him to serve as "interpreter" for the first interrogation of Marina. Crichton was in 1963 the president of Nafco Oil & Gas, Inc., and a former Military Intelligence officer still connected with Army Reserve Intelligence. According to information uncovered by the Garrison investigation, Crichton had been among a small group of Army Intelligence officials who met with H. L. Hunt soon after the assassination."

After the assassination, George Lumpkin returned to the TSBD and took command there.

DPD Archives Box 14, Folder# 4, Item# 10 page 22.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box14.htm

DPD Dispatch tapes

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/index.htm

12:49 PM

15	15's in charge down here. Correction, 5's (Dept. Chief G.L. Lumpkin) in charge.

He posted Lieutenant Eric Kaminsky at the front door to take down the ID of anyone leaving.

Kaminsky may have taken down Oswald's ID as he was leaving.

It was Lumpkin to whom Roy Truly reported that Oswald was "missing".

 

Memorandum by SS Agent Roger Warner and Elmer Moore dated 12/1/63

These became the SS copy of the Dispatch Tapes found in CD 87 beginning on page 636 and running to page 644.

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/J%20Disk/Justice%20Department%20of/Justice%20Department%20of%20JFK-King%20Reinvestigation/Item%2005.pdf

Page 5.

“On November 29, 1960, SA Warner conferred with Chief Lumpkin, Police Department, relative to reports of Police dispatches covering the arrival of President Kennedy in Dallas, Texas, the subsequent assassination and removal of President Kennedy to Parkland Memorial Hospital. These broadcasts were transmitted on Channel 2 which was an auxiliary channel used by the Police for special occasions. Also Chief Lumpkin provided for transcription on our tape the Police recordings of Channel# 1, the standard Police band which on the date of the Presidential assassination contained the Police broadcasts relative to the capture of Lee Harvey Oswald and the shooting of Police Officer Tippit.”

So, George Lumpkin took command of the crime scene, was instrumental in providing a lead that Oswald was "missing", provided the interpreter for Marina Oswald, and had control of the police dispatch tapes

Steve Thomas

 

[Paul Brancato]

Well yes Steve, but Crichton was the Mamantov connection. So here we are again - local Military Intelligence, i.e. the 488th. 

Why does your first link lead to a page warning me to go back and not to the page, claiming it’s possibly fake?

Edited December 20, 2018 by Paul Brancato

[Steve Thomas]

8 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Well yes Steve, but Crichton was the Mamantov connection. So here we are again - local Military Intelligence, i.e. the 488th. 

Why does your first link lead to a page warning me to go back and not to the page, claiming it’s possibly fake?

Paul,

 

According to, "Brandy, Our Man in Acapulco:" page 128:

“As was common for Brandy, (Brandstetter) he received a fine commendation for his work from his commanding officer, at this time, Colonel George Lumpkin....”

Rose at ACSI told Branstetter to go see Crichton about a job. According to this, Lumpkin was Crichton's boss. (As far as local military intelligence matters go anyway).

When the police asked Crichton about a Russian interpreter, Crichton told Lumpkin to call Mamantov.

Lumpkin and Crichton are linked. Whatever Crichton knew or didn't know, or did or didn't do, Lumpkin more than likely knew about it.

 

I don't know what it is about that first army.mil link . It does that to me too. Just go ahead and push through that. It's got to be something about how their software code is written.

 

P.S. Does anybody know anything about this line in Dick Russell's book,

"According to information uncovered by the Garrison investigation, Crichton had been among a small group of Army Intelligence officials who met with H. L. Hunt soon after the assassination."  Didn't Hunt leave town right after the assassination? And, who was in this small group of Army intelligence officers?

 

Steve Thomas

[Larry Hancock]

Hunt's aide (Curington) has a new book out and has spoken to researcher (he spoke at the CAPA event in Dallas). He makes it clear that he was familiar with Hunt's daily moments, that Hunt did not leave town immediately after the assassination and he makes no mention of any Hunt meeting other than with Marina Oswald.

[Steve Thomas]

54 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

Hunt's aide (Curington) has a new book out and has spoken to researcher (he spoke at the CAPA event in Dallas). He makes it clear that he was familiar with Hunt's daily moments, that Hunt did not leave town immediately after the assassination and he makes no mention of any Hunt meeting other than with Marina Oswald.

Larry,

I don't know about Hunt leaving town. I've never looked into that.

Here is the Spartacus entry for Jack Crichton:

https://spartacus-educational.com/MDcrichton.htm

(6) Dick Russell, The Man Who Knew Too Much (1992)

Five hours after the assassination, Ilya Mamantov, who had never met Oswald, received a phone call from Jack Crichton asking him to serve as "interpreter" for the first interrogation of Marina. Crichton was in 1963 the president of Nafco Oil & Gas, Inc., and a former Military Intelligence officer still connected with Army Reserve Intelligence. According to information uncovered by the Garrison investigation, Crichton had been among a small group of Army Intelligence officials who met with H. L. Hunt soon after the assassination.

I don't know soon, "soon after" means.

That afternoon? The next day? A week afterwards?

 

Steve Thomas

[Paul Brancato]

6 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Paul,

 

According to, "Brandy, Our Man in Acapulco:" page 128:

“As was common for Brandy, (Brandstetter) he received a fine commendation for his work from his commanding officer, at this time, Colonel George Lumpkin....”

Rose at ACSI told Branstetter to go see Crichton about a job. According to this, Lumpkin was Crichton's boss. (As far as local military intelligence matters go anyway).

When the police asked Crichton about a Russian interpreter, Crichton told Lumpkin to call Mamantov.

Lumpkin and Crichton are linked. Whatever Crichton knew or didn't know, or did or didn't do, Lumpkin more than likely knew about it.

 

I don't know what it is about that first army.mil link . It does that to me too. Just go ahead and push through that. It's got to be something about how their software code is written.

 

P.S. Does anybody know anything about this line in Dick Russell's book,

"According to information uncovered by the Garrison investigation, Crichton had been among a small group of Army Intelligence officials who met with H. L. Hunt soon after the assassination."  Didn't Hunt leave town right after the assassination? And, who was in this small group of Army intelligence officers?

 

Steve Thomas

I’m going to read that book. Peter Dale Scott recommended it when I spoke to him about Brandstetter at the SF symposium last Saturday, and he specifically mentioned Lumpkin. He’s also interested in Gordon McLendon and De Vosjoli. You know the story about Vosjoli driving to Acapulco to see Brandy right after nov 22. Scott says that Vosjoli actually drove to Dallas and met Brandy there! 

Edited December 20, 2018 by Paul Brancato

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, Larry Hancock said:

Hunt's aide (Curington) has a new book out and has spoken to researcher (he spoke at the CAPA event in Dallas). He makes it clear that he was familiar with Hunt's daily moments, that Hunt did not leave town immediately after the assassination and he makes no mention of any Hunt meeting other than with Marina Oswald.

Larry,

 

This reference to meeting between Hunt and Marina...

Do you know if Curington or this researcher you mentioned say anything about when and where this meeting was supposed to have taken place?

The reason I ask is that I don't remember anything about a Hunt/Marina meeting in the testimony of either Marina or Ruth Paine, nor in any Police, FBI or Secret Service reports I can think of.

If it's true, it gives me pause about the whole Hunt/Oswald note.

 

Steve Thomas