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Can i Play???

Hi Lance and David,

Before i launch into a few paragraphs.....could you please reply to this one simple question......"Did O.J murder Nicole and Ron Goldman"?

Thank you for your time.

Regards,

Adam.

 

 

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A day in the life of a Lone Gunman

1 - You're a TV celeb, pro cuba commie and want to kill the president to make yourself feel big and give you some kudos.

2 - You find out before anybody else in the world that the President is coming to town and you know the route, so obviously you get a job in a building on the route and plan to kill him from a room which only a few people, including you, go into. Thats smart, they wouldn't expect that.

2b - before you go any further you throw a red herring... you break into CIA langley, write a 201 file and keep it with Staff D, make a CIA assett code name for yourself and insert' Oswald project into a few documents. This is brilliant, add a gold star to your lapel sir. 

3 - You need a gun, something untraceable, something really accurate and quiet. So... You ask Robert Mckeown, Castro's best bud, if he can get you a crappy Walmart rifle if you pay him a massive amount of money, because that is like, so totally obvious it can't be true. He says no. You then write a money order in a fake name you've created and mail it to the gun company. However, you have to call them explain that you don't actually want the money order cashing because you're a socialist and have no money but need a gun to kill the president. They are understanding and take pity on you  but can only send you a Carcano for free, the cheapest, most useless weapon. Thats not a problem though because you're a super special sniper and really confident guy. 

4 -You then realise that the best thing to do would be to have that weapon be a decoy, to prove your innocence and throw a red herring. So... you don't practice with the weapon or use it on the day , in order to keep the barrel nice and rusty. Also, after dismantling it and putting it back together you reattach the strap, thats just a bit of fun. So, you have the worst weapon ever, re-assembled at the scene ( to further emphasise that it couldn't have been used with any accuracy ), unfired... Perfect ! 

5 - Now you need two weapons, one to fire the shot at z- 235 through the neck, a nice quiet one, then a second much louder weapon that you just fire for fun at 285 and 315ish. After you use your magic wand, the one you used to use to make yourself appear in two places at one time between ages 13 and 20, to make the two real weapons disappear. 

6- Then to confuse them even more what you do is not shoot as the president is coming straight towards you down Houston, thats too obvious. You wait till the turn and the car is on a curve going down hill away from you through a tree and Boom ! This makes CTers years later think that you formed a triangulation on the triangle of Dealy plaza North, LOL. 

7 - You previously set up a friend to shoot from the grassy knowl to leave some smoke and make sure that there is mass confusion and everyone think thats  where the bullets came from. 

8- Darn ! you hit JFK in the head twice when you almost simultaneously fired the two weapons, attempting a confusing miss with one and a headshot with the other. Never mind, more confusion !

9- Then, you hang around in a few different places at the same time in the building you work in and JFK was shot from so people see you, which makes sense. But then leave the building casually before the headcount.

10- Now, the last thing they'll suspect is that you go and watch a movie. You've checked you wallet and yup, you remembered to keep the fake ID used to buy the decoy gun in there. Not a massive issue if you'd forgotten because you dropped off a spare with Westbrook a few days earlier just in case - pat on the back big boy !

11 - So as to not arouse suspicion you hide in the doorway of a busy store when the cops roll past not looking for you, then because you need your $10 you have to flee the country , after your movie, you don't buy a ticket for the movie and make sure people see you run in and not buy one, so you don't get caught and stuff. Except you bribe the girl on the booth to tell people that you did buy one. To be sociable you then go and introduce yourself to the five other people on the ground floor of the cinema and sit right next to them sequentially , thats not weird. 

12- Fortunately,  a guy who is identical to you walks in just after and also doesn't buy a ticket, he then gets arrested on the balcony, led out the fire escape ! YAY ! darn it ! Westbrook just let him go without a report ! Oh well, you tried your best old boy......

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10 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

So you say. But I say your "Conspiracy" side hasn't won an argument yet.

And you're not even close to winning the "common sense" side of the "Multi-Gun, One-Patsy" argument. That one went to the "Lone Nutters" in the first round.

'A day in the life'..... of a Lone Gunman

1 - You're a TV celeb, pro cuba commie and want to kill the president to make yourself feel big and give you some kudos.

2 - You find out before anybody else in the world that the President is coming to town and you know the route, so obviously you get a job in a building on the route and plan to kill him from a room which only a few people, including you, go into. Thats smart, they wouldn't expect that.

2b - before you go any further you throw a red herring... you break into CIA langley, write a 201 file and keep it with Staff D, make a CIA assett code name for yourself and insert' Oswald project into a few documents. This is brilliant, add a gold star to your lapel sir. 

3 - You need a gun, something untraceable, something really accurate and quiet. So... You ask Robert Mckeown, Castro's best bud, if he can get you a crappy Walmart rifle if you pay him a massive amount of money, because that is like, so totally obvious it can't be true. He says no. You then write a money order in a fake name you've created and mail it to the gun company. However, you have to call them explain that you don't actually want the money order cashing because you're a socialist and have no money but need a gun to kill the president. They are understanding and take pity on you  but can only send you a Carcano for free, the cheapest, most useless weapon. Thats not a problem though because you're a super special sniper and really confident guy. 

4 -You then realise that the best thing to do would be to have that weapon be a decoy, to prove your innocence and throw a red herring. So... you don't practice with the weapon or use it on the day , in order to keep the barrel nice and rusty. Also, after dismantling it and putting it back together you reattach the strap, thats just a bit of fun. So, you have the worst weapon ever, re-assembled at the scene ( to further emphasise that it couldn't have been used with any accuracy ), unfired... Perfect ! 

5 - Now you need two weapons, one to fire the shot at z- 235 through the neck, a nice quiet one, then a second much louder weapon that you just fire for fun at 285 and 315ish. After you use your magic wand, the one you used to use to make yourself appear in two places at one time between ages 13 and 20, to make the two real weapons disappear. 

6- Then to confuse them even more what you do is not shoot as the president is coming straight towards you down Houston, and you have no danger of hitting anyone else, that's too obvious. You wait till the turn and the car is on a curve going down hill away from you , and Boom ! This makes CTers years later think that you formed a triangulation on the triangle of Dealy plaza North, LOL. 

7 - You previously set up a friend to shoot from the grassy knoll to leave some smoke and make sure that there is mass confusion and everyone think thats  where the bullets came from. 

8- Darn ! you hit JFK in the head twice when you (almost) simultaneously fired the two weapons, attempting a confusing miss with one and a headshot with the other. Never mind; more confusion !

9- Then, you hang around in a few different places at the same time in the building you work in and JFK was shot from so people see you, which makes sense. But then leave the building casually before the headcount.

10- Now, the last thing they'll suspect is that you go and watch a movie. You've checked your wallet and yup, you remembered to keep the fake ID used to buy the decoy gun in there. Not a massive issue if you'd forgotten because you dropped off a spare with Westbrook a few days earlier just in case - pat on the back big boy !

11 - So as to not arouse suspicion you hide in the doorway of a busy store when the cops roll past not looking for you, then because you need your $10 you have to flee the country , after your movie, you don't buy a ticket for the movie and make sure people see you run in and not buy one, so you don't get caught and stuff. Except you bribe the girl on the booth to tell people that you did buy one. To be sociable you then go and introduce yourself to the five other people on the ground floor of the cinema and sit right next to them sequentially , thats not weird. 

12- Fortunately,  a guy who is identical to you walks in just after and also doesn't buy a ticket, he then gets arrested on the balcony, led out the fire escape ! YAY ! darn it ! Westbrook just let him go without a report ! Oh well, you tried your best old boy......

Edited by Jake Hammond
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15 hours ago, Jake Hammond said:

Also lance, your logic has failed you here . The fact that no one shot on Houston surely suggests that a lone nut in the TSBD was not to blame as his first shot and the superb headshot were quite amazing feats from the snipers nest, especially with the supposed weapon ( which is a joke). He would have xxxx on Houston surely !? 

***

You are also ignoring the fact that EVERYONE ran to the grassy knowl, there is smoke caught emanating from the grassy knowl and Many many witnesses stated that at least one shot cane from the grassy knowl. 

***

lance you cannot deny the massive evidence that there was a shooter at the front . The problem really is that CTers for years have used the wrong evidence to prove it . I.e badgeman, a frontal neck shot ( because of Crenshaw et al ) , black dog man, James files etc etc ... 

***

Your bullet point analysis is rather empty Lance , there are a lot of assumptions, ignorances and inferences. I mean the fact that you would shoot from your own place of work, being a TV commie pro Cuba celebrity... and then try to escape ( with no money, sort of , and then deny it all. Make sense ?  

And you’d use the worst weapon of all time ? And you would t shoot on Houston . C’mon . You often state common sense and ‘ most likely ‘ scenario. .... just because a scenario is complex doesn’t mean it isn’t the most likely. 

Because I am a fair and open-minded intractable Lone Nut fundamentalist zealot, I will withdraw the Houston Street suggestion since it certainly isn't essential to my point.  Had shooters at other locations in the TSBD or Dal-Tex building taken wide-open shots down Houston, JFK would have been "really most sincerely dead" (as the Mayor of Munchkin City said) regardless of what the car did thereafter, but we'll let it go.

One thing I'm extremely familiar with is every last second in Dealey Plaza and what every witness said.  I believe there is zero evidence of a frontal shooter, Grassy Knoll or otherwise.  The fact that multiple people looked or ran in that direction is purely a matter of the acoustical characteristics of Dealey Plaza as described by Lee Bowers. You cannot simply assemble every crackpot witness and item of non-evidence and declare "We don't need common sense and logic anymore."

Oswald used the rifle he owned because that was the weapon available to him in the hours in which he "planned" (to use the word loosely) the assassination.  Everything he did in the Lone Assassin scenario is entirely consistent with "being Oswald."

12 hours ago, Rich Pope said:

1.  Planning the assassination of the president is not unusual for people who are in the business of killing leaders of countries.  Our CIA had done it more than once successfully.  

2.  We don't need our patsy to be on the 6th floor of the TSBD.  We just need him in the building.

3.  Fake Secret Service personnel on the ground can control where people are, which we know already happened.

4.  As long as the kill shot came from behind the president, it doesn't matter if he is in the TSBD or the Dal-Tex building, or the country records building.  It just has to be from behind.

5.  See explanation in #4.

6.  The shooter on the grassy knoll is the nuclear option, if all other shooters from behind fail.

7.  Which is exactly what happened.

8.  No, you actually don't need more than 30 people, many of whom are going to end-up dead because they are loose ends.

9.  That was a screw-up.  Oswald was supposed to be shot in the TSBD.  But he was taken care of before he could spill the beans.

1 - I fully agree.  You're making my very point.  A Presidential assassin by people with some level of expertise and resources would not look like one planned by the inmates of Miss Marina's Preschool for Precocious Toddlers..

2 - How does that change anything I've said?  The "patsy nest" was in the sixth-floor window.  If your super-duper assassination planners were not controlling Oswald's whereabouts at the time of the assassination, then they were indeed wacky assassination planners.  If they were controlling him, how did he walk out the front door and get on a bus?

3 - Pre-assassination, no one controlled where anyone was, what they were doing, or whether they had cameras.  No one really controlled anything post-assassination either.

4 - You lost me here.  In Conspiracy Gospel, the kill shot didn't come from behind.  Perhaps you mean it "had to be made to look" as though it were from behind?  But this is my very point.  If it had been from behind, as common sense and logic would have dictated if the patsy nest were going to be in the sixth-floor window, then all the rest (altering films, mutilating the body, faking the autopsy, terrorizing the Parkland doctors) would have been completely unnecessary.

6 - Is that what it was?  A gunman in a highly conspicuous, easily observable, exceedingly risky location was Plan B?

9 - This is, of course, what a conspiracy theorist must say in light of the inconvenient fact that Oswald walked out the front door and got on a bus.  Explain to me how this squares with common sense and logic.

You are articulating what I have dubbed the "geniuses at steps 1-3-5-9, inept fools at steps 2-4-6-8" approach that conspiracy theorists inevitably seem to adopt.

10 hours ago, Rich Pope said:

Geoff,

Ok.  Yes, I agree with you.  There is no way one person could pull this off without help and I don't care who that individual was.  It's impossible.

By "this," I assume you mean "all the elaborate and convoluted things conspiracy theorists believe happened."  If by "this" you mean the Lone Assassin scenario - well, that is not only possible but downright mundane and entirely consistent with common sense, logic, the best evidence and most reasonable inferences.

8 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:


Okay, this shows that Lance actually DOES understand that there had to have been two conspiracies. The fact that he already knew the explanation for his original problem shows that's he's not being serious.

But now, upon revealing the he knew all along the explanation for his own first question, he poses doubts about that explanation. Of course there's a reasonable explanation for these doubts as well that I could easily explain here. But I'm certain that Lance is an ideologue whose mind cannot be changed. So I will take Cliff's advice and leave it at that.
 

Ah, yes, the old "I could easily explain all that, but it isn't worth my time" ploy.  The "disinformation agent" card is generally played next.

In the "cover-up conspiracy" scenario, the cover-uppers would have had to realize almost instantaneously that this was a multi-assassin conspiracy that required an elaborate cover-up - i.e., one that might have pointed to the Soviets or Castro or both.  If the assassination conspirators had been the Mafia or the Dallas right-wing lunatic fringe, for example, no elaborate cover-up would have been necessary.  So we must believe that the cover-uppers immediately embarked on a wild scramble that involved altering films and photos, mutilating the body, faking the autopsy, terrorizing the Parkland doctors, silencing problematical witnesses, enlisting the cooperation of enough people to fill the Cotton Bowl, and all the rest.  Does this really seem believable to you?  As I have said, even my Lone Assassin scenario can accommodate an entirely plausible cover-up of sorts, whereby the FBI and CIA engaged in some shenanigans to hide Oswald's and Marina's possible KGB and Cuban connections as well as their own ineptitude.

Even if we completely ignore the cover-up conspiracy, we are left with the core questions:  (1) If Oswald was your designated patsy, why were any shooters, back-up or otherwise, located in front of Oswald?  (2)  Since you had utterly no way of knowing or controlling how many people would be in Dealey Plaza, where they would be located, how many might have cameras, or where they might be looking, how do shooters in open locations like the Grassy Knoll make any sense at all?  Riddle me this, Batman.

2 hours ago, Adam Johnson said:

Can i Play???

Hi Lance and David,

Before i launch into a few paragraphs.....could you please reply to this one simple question......"Did O.J murder Nicole and Ron Goldman"?

I know approximately 1/100th as much about OJ as I know about Oswald.  Based on what I do know, I believe he is a classic sociopath.  I know about 1/10th as much about OJ's crime as I know about Oswald's.  I am confident that OJ was the prime mover and actor in the crime and that his criminal jury was swayed by things other than the evidence.  I am aware that there is speculation he may have had an accomplice.  Do with that what you will.

8 hours ago, David Andrews said:

O, rocks! DVP.  Go read the back threads, where this stuff was hashed a long time ago.  You're counting on the membership forgetting that we won these arguments. when the quick and the dead took the moral and factual high ground long ago.

One of the dismaying realities of this forum is that literally every conceivable issue "was hashed" (and re-hashed and re-re-hashed) a long time ago.  Indeed, often the same issue is being re-re-re-hashed on five active threads at the same time.

Both in my own thinking and here, I like to step back and ask "Does what is being suggested make any sense at all?  Is there even plausible internal logic?  Or is it instead a way to avoid common sense and logic and keep the JFK assassination alive forever as a hobby, a lifestyle, a religion?"

But, please, feel free to declare victory in the name of the "membership."  It's all the same to me.

36 minutes ago, Jake Hammond said:

'A day in the life'..... of a Lone Gunman

I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or disagreeing with me - trying to expose the absurdity of the CT position or trying to make me look silly.  There are so many unsubstantiated statements and errors in your "day in the life" that I really can't tell.  The actual events of the 36 hours before the assassination and the 48 hours afterwards look to me precisely like Oswald "being Oswald."  No more and no less.  When I try to make them into something more mysterious, I bump my head on common sense, logic, evidentiary issues and, frankly, life in the real world.

Because I started this thread, I have felt some obligation to respond.  But the endless "Oh, yeah, what about THIS?" game just doesn't interest me.  Truly, the JFK assassination is an obsession like nothing I've ever seen before - anywhere, ever, and I have been part of numerous religious and weirdness communities.  The need for it to have been a conspiracy - and not just any conspiracy, but an emotionally satisfying one - is likewise unlike anything I have previously encountered.  But, hey, some people live and breathe Scientology too.

Two checks in a row from the Lone Nut Disinformation Agency have bounced, so I will not be reemerging until we get that straightened out.
 

Edited by Guest
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Lance, are you saying that the crowds of people who ran to the Knoll are all crackpots ? Yet simultaneously saying that we need to look at the evidence ?

The acoustics of Dealy plaza ? are you saying that the sound bounced off the small knoll and bushes but not off the 5+ story buildings elsewhere ?

I think you do know what I'm doing in the 'A day in the life'. I obviously cannot reference all the points in there but the general theme of course is to mirror your bullet pointed opening post with Sarcasm... dramatic irony, metaphor,  pathos, parody, litotes... and ..........satire.   You should get that. 

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Can I just ask, is there a preferred way to avoid these polarising slanging matches ? I'd joined up to discuss the timeline and motives for the events between 12.30 and 2 with others interested, I know theres always a difference in opinion but maybe theres a way to be civil ? I've seen that there are a couple of different sub sections on the Education forum relating to JFK..... or is it just about starting a topic on a specific question and stating in the opening post you'd like only specifically  interested parties to comment ?

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10 hours ago, David Andrews said:

O, rocks! DVP.  Go read the back threads, where this stuff was hashed a long time ago.  You're counting on the membership forgetting that we won these arguments. when the quick and the dead took the moral and factual high ground long ago.

[Lance's response:] One of the dismaying realities of this forum is that literally every conceivable issue "was hashed" (and re-hashed and re-re-hashed) a long time ago.  Indeed, often the same issue is being re-re-re-hashed on five active threads at the same time.

Both in my own thinking and here, I like to step back and ask "Does what is being suggested make any sense at all?  Is there even plausible internal logic?  Or is it instead a way to avoid common sense and logic and keep the JFK assassination alive forever as a hobby, a lifestyle, a religion?"

But, please, feel free to declare victory in the name of the "membership."  It's all the same to me.

 

In this holiday season, late at night, under the influence of a mild egg nog, some generalities may emerge from an exasperated soul, to be applied to tendentious and obscurationist posters in the curmudgeonly spirit of Lionel Barrymore in It's a Wonderful Life

In the cold morning light, however - I stand by those generalities.  Latecomers, go study the wealthy back threads of this forum. 

 

Edited by David Andrews
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"One of the dismaying realities of this forum is that literally every conceivable issue "was hashed" (and re-hashed and re-re-hashed) a long time ago.  Indeed, often the same issue is being re-re-re-hashed on five active threads at the same time."

So many posters here are newer to the forum, perhaps in just the last couple of years.

Of course we know that many of thread subjects addressed now by newer members have been discussed in the past with incredible thoroughness. 

I love it when longer term members re-post these older threads because they are often so informing and answer many questions we newer members have. This is a welcome practice that I wish was more often done. 

We newer members don't intentionally mean to rehash old debates. We're just not very savvy with the archives.

Edited by Joe Bauer
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We newer members don't intentionally mean to rehash old debates. We are often just are not savvy with the archives.

Now, Joe, we wuz talkin' of tendentious and obscurationist newcomers, not bright, young fellers such as y'self.

I understands yer demmacratic impulse to defend the loyal opposition and all, but lookie who they done picked for a leader!  It's like they's ridin' with Liberty Vallance.

Edited by David Andrews
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10 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

"One of the dismaying realities of this forum is that literally every conceivable issue "was hashed" (and re-hashed and re-re-hashed) a long time ago.  Indeed, often the same issue is being re-re-re-hashed on five active threads at the same time."

So many posters here are newer to the forum, perhaps in just the last couple of years.

Of course we know that many of thread subjects addressed now by newer members have been discussed in the past with incredible thoroughness. 

I love it when longer term members re-post these older threads because they are often so informing and answer many questions we newer members have. This is a welcome practice that I wish was more often done. 

We newer members don't intentionally mean to rehash old debates. We're just not very savvy with the archives.

+1 

 I really don’t want petty arguments . Or to rehash stuff. 

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first- ""Rules of Evidence" that only apply inside a courtroom."? The rules of evidence are a bedrock to our system of justice. They are intended to prevent junk or fake evidence from being used to wrongfully convict innocent people. You cant dismiss them simply because they are inconvenient or make your case harder. 

The evidence in this case has serious chain of custody problems that would either cause the evidence to be excluded or the questionable providence going to the weight (credibility) of the evidence. There is NO evidence the gun was fired that day. we can do another post on the evidence if you want. 

 

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6 hours ago, Adam Johnson said:

Did O.J. murder Nicole [Brown] and Ron Goldman?

Yes. Absolutely. No doubt about it.

And, as you probably realize, many similarities exist between the O.J. Simpson case and the JFK assassination (discussed below)....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/11/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1060---JFK AND O.J.

 

Edited by David Von Pein
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I will admit there are lots of wacky conspiracy theories that are advanced. You conflate lots of them into your 9 points. Consider this possibility. The conspiracy was organized by the mafia or  exiles out of desperation. the planning was not based on logic but anger/betrayal. the goal was to ensure he was killed. It didnt matter if they were caught. The coverup was an independent response by the government to prevent the world from knowing these were people who we had trained and worked with try to assassinate Castro.

Evidence could easily be planted against LHO and making him look like a cop killer incentivized the DPD to frame him.

Fairly simple   

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