The turn on to Elm ...

[John Butler]

Rich,

Your are right.  The best thing to do is think of 3+ shots.  Some people account for 9 or 10 shots.

There are more shots than the official story.  Even 11 year old Rosemary Willis claims 4 to 6 with a preference for 6.  If you read Rosemary's statement in my last post you will see she said the shots came from behind her back and right shoulder.  This means the Dal-Tex and the Court Records Building.  If you really stretch it could mean the Court House.  She says the last shot, the one that hit the President in the head, comes from the Grassy Knoll.

Dealey Plaza is an assassin's dream, fantasy land.  You can shoot from anywhere in the Plaza and from outside the Plaza in certain directions.  There are a lot of marksman like Hickok45 of Utube fame who can hit a target at 230 yards with a pistol.  And, certainly has no problem whatsoever to hit a target at that distance without a scope on the rifle.

The greatest distance a person in Dealey Plaza had to shoot is about 200 to 300 feet.  That gives you a wide variety of areas to look at for marksmen to be stationed. 

Some people claim the President was shot in the head more than once, up to 3 times.  I think two shots to the head is what occurred.  And, here is where I go out on a limb and find myself in territory other people think is fantasy.  I believe the President was shot more than once in the back and at least once in the front in the neck.  John Connally may have been shot twice, once in the back and once in the front.  So, how many is that?  That's 7 if my math is correct.  Actually, I think there were more.

Edited December 29, 2018 by John Butler

[Micah Mileto]

First shot 190-224. Second and third shots bunched around 313. I don't see why everybody can't agree that's the best shooting sequence, IMO seems pretty obvious reading the literally hundreds of Dealey Plaza statements.

Edited December 29, 2018 by Micah Mileto

[Andrew Prutsok]

6 hours ago, Micah Mileto said:

First shot 190-224. Second and third shots bunched around 313. I don't see why everybody can't agree that's the best shooting sequence, IMO seems pretty obvious reading the literally hundreds of Dealey Plaza statements.

I think the reason is you have to buy in to the single bullet theory to account for all the wounds...and that’s insane,

[David Josephs]

9 hours ago, Micah Mileto said:

First shot 190-224. Second and third shots bunched around 313. I don't see why everybody can't agree that's the best shooting sequence, IMO seems pretty obvious reading the literally hundreds of Dealey Plaza statements.

Mr. KELLERMAN. President Kennedy had four wounds, two in the head and shoulder and the neck. Governor Connally, from our reports, had three. There have got to be more than three shots.

Shots were removed from the film.... read what Dino said at NPIC about the number of shots on the z film he saw... Doug Horne vol 4....  3 shots has been so ingrained it’s hard not to think of anything but...

 

... but there were closer to 6 shots than 3....

[John Butler]

Rich,

This is a reference to a well documented article on the number and explanation for shots in Dealey Plaza.  Best I've seen.  It should answer many of the questions you might have.  However, I don't agree with some of the conclusions in the article.

http://theshotsindealeyplaza.com/?page_id=12

Edited December 29, 2018 by John Butler

[Micah Mileto]

3 hours ago, Andrew Prutsok said:

I think the reason is you have to buy in to the single bullet theory to account for all the wounds...and that’s insane,

"Shots" meaning "loud gunshot-like sound". Only two or three loud reports were heard.

[Cory Santos]

On ‎12‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 1:35 PM, David Josephs said:

Mr. Butler...

Your post above, your insistence below that Moorman and Hill were moved from up the street (among a number of interesting photographic suggestions of yours)... is the reason I block you and prefer not to read your posts...

 

As Chris D. proved, the turn was removed not only to hide the wide turn but to create an artificial starting frame #... 133 which somehow relates to 161 and Pos A

Mr. SPECTER. Well, let's start with the position which is the most easterly point on Elm Street, which I believe would be position A, would it not? 
Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes. 
-----
Mr. SPECTER. This chart has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 886.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 886 for identification.)
Mr. SHANEYFELT. This shows the photograph that was made from the point where Zapruder was standing looking toward the car, and is a point that we have designated as position A because it is in a position that did not appear on the Zapruder film.  The Zapruder film does not start until the car gets farther down Elm Street. 

So the one REAL QUESATION we have is Since the limo passes thru POSITION A... how does the limo get to z133 when the Secret Service follow-up car is literally on the limo's back bumper... maybe a 5-8 foot spread?

So maybe the limo turned wide yet the Queen Mary didn't...

Between 138 and 161 Hickey and Rosemary Willis react at street level that look like a reaction to something hitting the street

 

Another question would be the total time/# of frames it takes for the limo to get from z132, to its position at 133 and/or Pos A

 

The limo was just turning off Main onto Houston as the lead motorcycle enters the turn...  the limo travels about 250 feet to get to z133
at 12mph = 17.6 feet/sec = just over 14 seconds...
y'all can take it from here....

 

 

Is this photo at the bottom showing the turn  altered?  Why is the right side of JFK's head missing?  Photoshop?

[David Josephs]

11 hours ago, Cory Santos said:

Is this photo at the bottom showing the turn  altered?  Why is the right side of JFK's head missing?  Photoshop?

That's the turn from Main onto Houston showing the lead motorcycle and relating it to the Zfilm....

Just as the limo turns onto Houston, the cyclist is starting his turn onto Elm...

 

[John Butler]

A big shout out is due to David Josephs for the imagery in his post.  He has picked up on what others have missed and he has pointed out a way to calculate as nearly as possible the amount of time in the Zapruder Gap.  I differ on one of his interpretations of the Advance / Lead Motorcycles.  Here is that difference:

His red line doesn’t connect the motorcycle cops correctly.  The Lead Motorcycles consisted of 5 policemen.  They proceeded directly in front of the Lead Car/Jesse Curry.  And, then the next vehicle was the presidential limousine.  The Advance Motorcycles and Lead Motorcycles are easy to confuse.  I am constantly correcting myself for improperly using one for the other.   

The first 132 frames of the Zapruder Film show only 3 motorcycle policemen.  Therefore, they have to be the Advance Motorcycles and not the Lead Motorcycles.  In the Weaver photo above the Advance Motorcycles have already cleared the area of the intersection of Houston and Elm and the area of the TSBD.  At this point in the Weaver photo they could be down by the Grassy Knoll or further toward the Triple Underpass.

The point is that the Lead Motorcycles and the Lead Car are not seen in Zapruder.  They can only be found in the Weaver photo and the Gap.

I have posted on the Weaver photo before and have concluded that the missing part of Kennedy’s head must be a photo error.  There is a small possibility of altering.  I don’t see that there is any sign of alteration on the limousine.  The technique in those days was to cut out images for pasting into another photo was to use a sharp knife like an exacto knife or small scissors.  I don’t see anything unusual about the limousine which I would think would be a difficult task to cut out without leaving some telltale mark.

The important part of this is David Josephs has given us a better way to calculate the time of the missing film segment in the Zapruder Gap.  I’ll do a rough approximation.  Someone with better math skills and research skills at finding distances can do a more exact calculation.  I’ll wager there will be little difference or significance between the two.

The presidential limousine has just turned the corner giving us the entire length of that block of Houston as a measure for distance to the intersection at Elm Street.  There are two buildings on Houston which are the Court Records Building and the Court House.  Each building is about the same size as the TSBD which is 100 feet per side.

So, the distance of Houston Street is about 220 feet.  The extra 20 feet comes from the entrance between the buildings.  The presidential limousine appears in Z frame 133.  It appears to be about half way or just a little more pass the TSBD.  Let’s say about 60 feet due to the intersection being wide.  This is based on the length of the two vehicles, the distance between, and the distance to the Johnson vehicle.  It may be closer to 80 ft.

All together that gives us about 280 feet.  Using David Josephs 17.6 frames per second figure that would give 15.9 seconds.  That’s pretty close to Josephs figure of 14 seconds.

The variance can be due to turning times and acceleration speeds or other similar variables.  There could be a longer period based on turning corners, accelerating, deaccelerating to turn corners,  and the slow down in front of the TSBD due to the wide turn.  Some say that was a brief stop.  But, there is no way to calculate that.

Edited December 31, 2018 by John Butler

[Cory Santos]

7 hours ago, David Josephs said:

That's the turn from Main onto Houston showing the lead motorcycle and relating it to the Zfilm....

Just as the limo turns onto Houston, the cyclist is starting his turn onto Elm...

 

I know, but look at JFK's head, its missing the right side already.  What is going on there?

[John Butler]

Corey,

That is most likely some sort of photo error in the Weaver photo not the result of some kind of gunshot wound.  I would like to claim that is what the  Altgens 5 photo alterations were all about.  I would like to claim Altgens 5 was altered to show that President Kennedy had been shot on Houston Street and that was covered up but, that is not what I see.  And, more importantly I can't prove it. 

All I can say is something happened at the intersection of Main and Houston and later on Houston Street is suspicious. 

[John Butler]

There were things going on when the presidential limousine turned on to Elm Street that people ignore or say they didn’t happen that way.

As an example, if there were 100 people who said there were 3 gunshots, 50 people who said the 4 gunshots, and 25 people who said there were 4 to 6 gunshots then, who would you believe?  All 175 said there were 3 gunshots, 75 said there were 4 or more.

How do you determine what is correct and really real?  Does this simply leave a situation that can’t be determined due to reasonable doubt?  Do you just discredit over 30 witnesses that say the Zapruder Film, Mary Moorman’s Polaroid, and Altgens 6 are lies?  And, why would over 30+ witnesses lie or be so confused that they momentarily lost control of reality?

What some Witnesses said about the turn onto Elm Street and in front of the TSBD:

1. Carolyn Walther- heard shot after limo turned onto Elm.

2. Mrs. Pearl Springer- thought she heard a shot as the limo turned the corner onto Elm.

3. Arnold Rowland- said he was on Houston when the presidential limo began to turn on Elm he heard a noise he thought was a backfire and he heard another about 8 seconds later.

4. Garland Slack- when the vehicle turned onto Elm heard a loud retort.

5. James Worrell- at the NE corner of the TSBD when heard shot the vehicle was 50 to 75 feet past him.  TSBD is 100 ft. wide.

6. Robert Edwards- heard 4 shots as vehicle rounded corner of Elm St.

7. Ronald Fischer- heard 3 shots as vehicle turned the corner of Elm St.

8. Amos Euins- He said shortly after the car started down the hill he heard what sounded like a backfire.

9. Harold Brennan- eventually states he heard a shot a short distance from his location on the retaining wall at the SW corner of Elm and Houston.  The short distance implies in front of the TSBD, less than 30 yards.

10. Harold Norman- 11-26-63 FBI statement Norman said he heard a shot as the vehicle turned onto Elm St.

11. Bonnie Ray Williams- first said he heard shot when the presidential limo turned onto Houston.  Later, he changed that to a turn onto Elm St. and then later changed that.

12. James “Junior” Jarman- At first, Jarman said much the same as Williams and Norman.  He later changed his testimony at the Warren Hearing to hearing shots from low and to the left.

13. Elsie Dorman- thought shots came from the Court Records Building on Houston St.

14. Sandra Styles- In a statement made to the FBI on 3-19-64 she said she heard shots but, did not know where they came from and offered no other relevant information.  However, in a video published in October, 2017 she said as the presidential vehicle turned into the intersection she heard 3 shots.   Reference:  Jobert Jefford Paulson video, Oct. 17, 2017- The Case of the Lady Who Did Not See the Assassin.

15. Vickie Adams- when the president’s vehicle entered the intersection she heard 3 shots.

16. Dorothy Garner- When the shots occurred the presidential vehicle was out of sight, obscured by trees.  This would be in front of the TSBD.

17. Mary Hollies- 2-18-64 statement to Detective Potts said she heard 3 shots as the motorcade turned into the intersection.

18. Betty Alice Foster- She heard something like fireworks after the President’s car turned down Elm St. 

19. Geneva Hine- She saw the lead car turn into from Houston Street onto Elm Street.  The next one to turn was the presidential vehicle.  She heard shots as the next vehicle, the Secret Service car begin to turn onto Elm.

20. Betty Jean Thornton- said as the President passed by she heard 3 shots.

21. Jane Berry- FBI statement of 11-25-63 she was located just west of the TSBD (allegedly in Mannequin Row) when the motorcade came by.  Just as the car was passing by her she heard 3 shots.

22. Ochus Cambell- 11-24-63 FBI statement he was located 30 feet in front of the building.  He was standing there observing the passing motorcade when he heard a loud report which he thought was a firecracker.

23. Pauline Sanders (Mrs. Robert E. Sanders)- She said she could not recall the exact time but immediately after the motorcade passed she heard 3 shots

24. Virginia Rackley- When President Kennedy’s limousine immediately passed her location she heard 3 shots

25. Linda Willis- said in her Warren Commission testimony taken by Wesley J. Liebler on July 22, 1964 that she was standing in front of the TSBD when he motorcade came by.  She initially said she heard shots there.

26. Tina Towner- in a YouTube video, Witnesses to the JFK assassination:  Three Dallas Stories- LA Times by Brian van der Brug, she said things that indicate shooting occurred as the presidential vehicle turned into the intersection and in front of the TSBD.  The article said she stopped filming after the presidential limousine turned into the intersection.  If that’s true then who filmed her film?

27. James L. Simmons- a Union Terminal railroad worker who said he was standing on the Triple Underpass when the assassination occurred.  He said he heard shots when the presidential limousine turned into the intersection of Elm and Houston.

28. Bill Newman- in a Dallas Sheriff’s Office statement made on 11-22-63 said he was standing just west of the concrete standard (the monument) at the corner of the TSBD when he heard shots as the presidential limousine came toward him.  This means that the shooting occurred on Elm Street in front of the TSBD.

29. Toni Glover- in a YouTube video from the JFK Assassination Forum, Rare Interview With JFK Assassination Witness Toni Glover Who Was Ony 11 Years Old In 1963, Toni Glover said as Kennedy rounded the corner (corner of Houston and Elm intersection) his head exploded.

30. J. W. Foster- The Warren Commission Testimony of J.W. Foster was taken at 1:30 a.m., on April 9, 1964.  J. W. Foster was a Dallas Policeman stationed on the Triple Underpass during the assassination.  He said in his testimony as the presidential limousine came onto Elm Street he heard a loud noise that sounded like a firecracker

31. Earl Brown- was a Dallas Police Officer assigned to duty on the Stemmons railroad overpass over the Stemmons Expressway service road.  In his Warren Commission testimony of 4-7-64 he stated the presidential vehicle had made the turn and when the shots were fired, it stopped.

32. Pierce Allman- said it pretty much happened in front of him.  He was standing on the SW corner of Elm and Houston.  He was about 10 feet front the vehicle when shots were fired.

33. 44. Peggy Joyce Hawkins---she was on the front steps of the TSBD and " estimated that the President's car was less than 50 feet away from her when he was shot, that the car slowed down almost coming to a full stop." ["Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97];

34. 45. Yola Hopson- She was on the 4^th floor in the middle of the building in Scott-Forseman and when she heard shots she couldn’t see the presidential limo.  It was under the trees.  The shots did not sound as if they came from the building.

35. S. M. Holland- said much the same as Simmons and other railroad workers.

There is evidence that claims the FBI changed the statements of these men concerning what they saw and heard.

There is a longer version of this with more detail.

[David Josephs]

On ‎12‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 5:44 PM, Cory Santos said:

I know, but look at JFK's head, its missing the right side already.  What is going on there?

Pretty sure that JFK is simply brushing his hair back as he did so many times along the route.. the blur of his hand is what causes the street to bleed over -

 

The image is from Weaver...  yet when we look especially close one wonders where the men from the 5th floor windows are...  Williams said they had to open the windows to get a good view...(think it was him) 

 

 

Edited January 2, 2019 by David Josephs

[John Butler]

David Josephs has once again opened up an area for discussion that asks a lot of questions that people generally don’t or won’t provide an answer for.  Josephs examination of Weaver details is quite exacting.  You can notice the same problems in other photos and films.  It is well demonstrated in Josephs analysis that some of the windows have been altered by painting out what could have been seen.

The turn on Elm Street by the presidential motorcade is obscured by bad photography which we are supposed to accept as natural.  We are not allowed to think that something unnatural may have occurred to almost all the photography on the day of the assassination in Dealey Plaza.

This is the type of imagery we should have coming out of Dealey Plaza on the day of the assassination.  This can be blown up and looked at in detail.  Why we don’t have this can generally be explained one way.

Instead we have distant, distorted  blurred, and altered imagery to contend with such as this from Hughes.

Not only is the imagery bad but, it doesn’t show the same thing in different photos taken approximately at the same time.  This last scene is from the Hughes film just seconds to the assassination.  Where is Oswald? Where is Bonnie Ray Williams who said he saw the limo turn onto Houston Street.  Where are his two buds?  Can you see a man in the 3^rd floor corner office in a jacket and tie?  Where is the group standing on the front steps of the TSBD.  If they are there why are they blacked out?   

Better imagery allows you to ask more questions.  Examine this Dilliard photo for the man with the jacket and tie in the 3^rd floor window, and the comparison for other anomalies.  There is an alleged 30 seconds difference.

It may have been decided early on to block out the windows in Weaver, Hughes, and others and then decided later that you need the 3 black men in the windows on the 5^th floor to make a better story.  There was reenactment at a later time.  So, was Dilliard and Powell really taken on the day of the assassination?

 

[John Butler]

William Weston said in his discussion of drugs, guns, and the TSBD The Spider’s Web: The Texas School Book Depository and the Dallas Conspiracy:

“There is a very large spider guarding this web of secrecy. I have entered other webs, but this one is different because the spider leaves the web and stalks its prey – sometimes for many years.”

From FBI testimony of 11-30-63 and also Commission Exhibit No. 2104:

1 STEVEN P. WILSON, Office Manager, Allyne and Bacon,

Inc., 301 Texas School Book Depository Building, advised at

approximately 12:30 p.m. on the afternoon of November 22,

 

1963, employees of his office had gone to view the Presiden-

tial Motorcade on the corner of Elm and Houston Streets, and

due to a heart condition which he has had, he opened the

blinds on the third floor opposite from his reception desk

and viewed the Presidential Motoroade as it proceeded north

on Houston Street and then west on Elm Street. Due to a

large tree being in the way, he could not view the entire

procession, but as his view became obstructed, he heard, three

distinct shots which he thought came from a rifle, and sub-

sequently it was determined that the President had been shot.

Steven Wilson is the man in the jacket and tie visible in the 3^rd floor window of the TSBD in the Dilliard photo.  He is not visible in the Powell photo or any other photo or film.  If you look at the Hughes frame below you will see a very blurred image of a man in a jacket and tie.  Could this be Steven Wilson?  Well, I have discovered over time that most anything is possible with Kennedy Assassination imagery.  Although, one man in a jacket and tie does not necessarily indicate it is another man in another location.

I don’t know whether Wilson was involved in any gun or drug operations that was alleged by Weston in his Spider’s Web article.  But, his presence is blacked out in all other films and photos.  And, that is interesting? 

This was something I was working on several years back and never finished.  As an example:

Yola Hopson said similar things to Steven Wilson.  She was in the storeroom of the same offices of Elsie Dorman and others were on the 4^th floor.  Both, she and Steven Wilson, said they couldn’t see what was going on due to trees being in the way.

In an FBI statement of 12-1-63 she said:

She stated at the time she he »rd these sounds she

could not sec the Presidential car since there were some trees along the edge of tho street which blocked her view.

 

You can still find unusual information in these old films but, you have to look closely at what is there.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 3, 2019 by John Butler