Edwin Walker

[J. Raymond Carroll]

I mean, how odd is it that the Walker incident occurred only days before De Mohrenschildt met with the U.S. military and encouraged the overthrow of his employer, Haitian dictator Papa Doc Duvallier?

What is the source for this meeting between DeM & the military?

Do we know at whose initiative the meeting was held?

Do we know when DeM and the military began their relationship?

I found Edward Epstein's answers on his website. DeM told Epstein, shortly before DeM came to a premature death, that he had been contacted by J. Walton Moore of CIA's Domestic Contacts to keep an eye on an American defector returning from Russia. DeM had a longstanding relationship with Moore in his CIA capacity, and he developed a friendship with Oswald based on their mutual connection with the City of Minsk.

DeM told Epstein that he believed Lee had fired at Walker, that he had shown Moore one of the Neely "Backyard Photos," and that he told Moore everything he knew or suspected about the Walker shooting. Shortly after he reported to Moore on the Walker shooting, DeM was awarded the contract he wanted with Papa Doc's government, and he left for Haiti.

Is it just TOO coincidental that DeM was expecting CIA help in Haiti in return for his Oswald debriefings, and his contract came through shortly after he provided CIA with this scintillating portrait of a wannabe assassin?

If DeM's story is true, he must have lived under incredible stress after the assassination.

From what I found on Epstein's site, there are no CIA documents that confirm any aspect of DeM's story involving J. Walton Moore. Does anyone know of document releases that Epstein might not be aware of?

[Don Jeffries]

As has been pointed out before over the years, JFK and Walker were political enemies and thus it is very unlikely that the same assassin would try to kill them both. It astonishes me that any JFK assassination researcher places the least bit of credibility in the ridiculous testimony of Marina Oswald. Didn't she claim that Lee had thrown the rifle in some bushes, to avoid being seen walking back home with it? Okay....he must have had to retrieve the rifle at some point, so wasn't he worried about carrying it in public then? Why didn't he just disassemble it and do his famous curtain rods bit? But then again, we must accept that the mannicher carcano did indeed belong to Oswald in order to begin to believe this story. I don't think it has been proven at all that the rifle did belong to Oswald, and I certainly don't place any credence in the fanciful and forced testimony of his understandably frightened wife.

[John Dolva]

Oliver's exhibit four ("the Councillor", Ned Touchstone) as close as a Walker talker as one could get at the time, dec 20 also says it was a steel jacketed bullet 'that missed by inches'. (Yet the HSCA photo of the puported bullet looks copper)

Interestingly it also points out that Walker was careful to make sure the pilots of his flight from Dallas to Shreveport signed his ticket.

[Thomas Graves]

Oliver's exhibit four ("the Councillor", Ned Touchstone) as close as a Walker talker as one could get at the time, dec 20 also says it was a steel jacketed bullet 'that missed by inches'. (Yet the HSCA photo of the puported bullet looks copper)

Interestingly it also points out that Walker was careful to make sure the pilots of his flight from Dallas to Shreveport signed his ticket.

___________________________

John,

Would you please clarify a bit?

1) Who is "Oliver?" Revilo P. Oliver?

2) What do you mean when you say, "Oliver's exhibit four?"

3) What do you mean by "a Walker talker?" A spokesman for Walker?

(I've already learned a bit about Ned Touchstone and his periodical "The Councilor" by doing some googling. For example, I'm aware that Touchstone made a speech, with General Walker (Ret), from the Louisiana State Capitol steps to a crowd of some 8,000 people...)

Thanks,

--Thomas

__________________________

Edited March 29, 2007 by Thomas Graves

[John Dolva]

Oliver's exhibit # 4 is a four page copy of Dec 20, 1963 Citizens Council rag in vol XX WCR.

http://aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/contents.htm

Yes, Revilo. Much of his exhibits are interesting as in them one can see the genesis of much of what is under debate today. (I find his own writings a convoluted intellectual machete chop through the aftermath that turns a criminal tragedy into a deserved outcome perpetrated by 'the world communist conspiracy' on one of their own for some reason he has difficulty expressing but no difficulty blabbing about, ie very obfuscatory)

Ned Touchstone apparently writes Walkers side of the story as close as one could get at the time, I gather from the exhibit that he was among those who picked up Walker at the airport and comes across as his spokesman, or rather uses the Citizens Council publication to put the right wing's side of the story, and ties in the German newspaper report which further muddies the water.

edit:: at the bottom of this page http://www.members.aol.com/a1eah71/mysite/index.htm are some good resources to help navigate the WCR

Edited March 29, 2007 by John Dolva

[Myra Bronstein]

Myra

The person who provided the most compelling evidence against Oswald for the Walker shooting was Marina Oswald. To date she has never backed away from her testimony concerning this event.

Check the commission docs for a copy of the letter that Oswald wrote to Marina telling her what to do in the event that he was captured as well as the pictures that Oswald is reputed to have taken before the assassination attempt. The photos showed some road construction work that was being done in the days preceding April 10, 1963. The photos were in the possession of Marina Oswald and seem to verify that Oswald was scoping the operation prior to committing the act.

Jim Root

Jim,

Maybe she's never backed away from her Walker testimony, but she's sprinted away from her testimony about Oswald. As another mentioned in this thread, she testified out of fear of being deported. And as Mark Lane pointed out in Rush to Judgement she was isolated and programmed and harassed by FBI agents until they got what they wanted out of her. Her 1996 interview with Oprah made it very clear that she knew she was used and manipulated into her WC testimony, and believed (as of 1996) that Lee had nothing to do with the President's murder. Therefore, I don't see any reason to believe any Walker related testimony she made either, while under extreme duress.

I didn't know about a letter from Lee to her though. That's interesting and I'd like to see it. I really don't think they much liked each other.

Thanks for the pointer.

[Myra Bronstein]

Myra, if you go to here : http://aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/contents.htm and select volume XX and go to the Oliver exhibits you'll find a copy of "the Councillor" which has a copy and translation of the German Right wing newspaper article published just after the assassination. Also a timeline of Walkers movements and a number of other people. I know it's not exactly what you're after but it helps to put some things in context.

I find right clicking on the pdf file and saving and using acrobat on the computer easier. Also to read some of the fuzzier letters one can copy the pages into a image manipulator to adjust contrasts etc makes it easier to read.

Alternatively if someone has a good copy of the journal that could be posted/linked to?

Thanks John. Sounds like a good resource.

Myra, there are some who suspect that the Walker incident was designed for two purposes. 1) to get positive publicity for Walker; 2) to give Oswald the bona fides to get into Cuba. As far as Oswald telling Marina he fired the shot... I often wonder about Oswald's relationship with his wife and suspect he never trusted her. If he was CIA, as some suspect, he may have been playing his own wife. He may have thought by telling her she would get word to the Paines or to others he suspected of leftist sympathies. He may have hoped this would open some doors for him when he tried to get into Cuba. There is a lot about Oswald, Marina, the Paines and the De Mohrenschildts that remains a mystery. I mean, how odd is it that the Walker incident occurred only days before De Mohrenschildt met with the U.S. military and encouraged the overthrow of his employer, Haitian dictator Papa Doc Duvallier?

Yeah Pat, I lean towards your point of view on the Walker episode, and on his relationship to Marina. I think they flat out disliked each other. And if Lee was actually planning on going to Cuba, and it appears he believed that's what he was doing, then wasn't he abandoning his wife?

Interesting info you provide about the timing of the Walker incident in relation to DeM...'s Haiti mission. I need to know much more about DeM. Guess I have to read all of Fonzi's book. I've read some.

Anyone recommend other good books (aside from the one DeM... himself wrote, which is online) about DeM?

[Myra Bronstein]

I mean, how odd is it that the Walker incident occurred only days before De Mohrenschildt met with the U.S. military and encouraged the overthrow of his employer, Haitian dictator Papa Doc Duvallier?

What is the source for this meeting between DeM & the military?

Do we know at whose initiative the meeting was held?

Do we know when DeM and the military began their relationship?

I found Edward Epstein's answers on his website. DeM told Epstein, shortly before DeM came to a premature death, that he had been contacted by J. Walton Moore of CIA's Domestic Contacts to keep an eye on an American defector returning from Russia. DeM had a longstanding relationship with Moore in his CIA capacity, and he developed a friendship with Oswald based on their mutual connection with the City of Minsk.

DeM told Epstein that he believed Lee had fired at Walker, that he had shown Moore one of the Neely "Backyard Photos," and that he told Moore everything he knew or suspected about the Walker shooting. Shortly after he reported to Moore on the Walker shooting, DeM was awarded the contract he wanted with Papa Doc's government, and he left for Haiti.

Is it just TOO coincidental that DeM was expecting CIA help in Haiti in return for his Oswald debriefings, and his contract came through shortly after he provided CIA with this scintillating portrait of a wannabe assassin?

If DeM's story is true, he must have lived under incredible stress after the assassination.

...

Do you say that because you believe DeM did not know Lee was being patsy dipped J. Ray?

[Guest Mark Valenti]

As has been pointed out before over the years, JFK and Walker were political enemies and thus it is very unlikely that the same assassin would try to kill them both.

This may be one of the more important observations in the entire puzzle.

Tilt the seesaw one way and you have a leftie pro-Castroite.

Go the other way and you have a rabid right-winger.

Can't be both.

[Charles Drago]

Was there available a more elegantly simple way of creating "cognitive dissonance" among future investigators?

Two Oswalds. In more ways than one.

[John Dolva]

maybe, maybe not

Stepping back from the particulars : "Divide and Rule".

Not only was the Kennedy proven commitment to the enforcement of the Supreme Courts rulings on De-Segregation generating a massive backlash from the old Southern Status Quo.

"The right wing was incensed by Kennedy's transfer of Gen. Edwin A. Walker from his command in West Germany to Hawaii for distributing right-wing literature to his troops. The paramilitary Minutemen condemned the administration as "soft on communist" and adopted guerrilla warfare tactics to prepare for the fight against the Communist foe. At the other extreme, the left labeled Kennedy a reactionary disappointment, a tool of the "power elite." President Kennedy saw the danger of a politically polarized society and spoke against extremist solutions, urging reason in an ordered society."

Lee himself, in his draft of his experiences in the Soviet Union, explained his position, writing that the Minutemen were closest to what was needed, except he had a 'new' agenda which was aimed at exploiting the "politically polarized society" that Kennedy saw the danger of. IOW Lee was in effect an infantile, disordered, extreme right winger, who quite likely participated in SOME role in the assassination, believing that what would follow would allow a new society to be born. Others more sophisticated capitalised on this and steered him. He was indeed a true 'Patsy'. The 'cheated' fall guy, the goat led to slaughter. I suspect that right up to the last moment the full meaning of his predicament had not dawned on him. But he was beginning to put two and two together. Either way his fate was sealed from the start. Perhaps the remarkable thing was that he survived as long as he did.

Much is made of Lee's clenched fist salute as being a communist display. This is ridiculous. Lee was a southerner about to enter the southern Prison System. To do so as a communist, which reasonably presumes a desegreagationist stand, is akin to suicide. The shackled right fist salute at that time in the south was a sign that White Supremacists used to identify themselves to each other in jail, thus coming under their protection.

So participating in a FAILED attempt on a compatriot (Walker) and a SUCCESSFUL attempt on Kennedy is not contradictory to those who saw a need for exploiting, and heightening that polarization, of an already polarized society.

Then, the primary need of the remnants of Kennedy's true men, fulfilling his 'urging reason in an ordered society' was to defuse this impetus which could very well have led (as the conspirators may have banked on) to a Civil War footing wherein a First Strike on the Soviet Union would have become imperative in order to deny the left becoming a vanguard in the potentially ensuing Civil War.

I think a 'failure' for the conspirators behind the actual assassination, was that the conspirators lived in an old closed Deep South Confederate society that was being wrenched into the twentieth century by forces ultimately beyond their control. A primary component of this was the media revolution that was taking place at this time, where on the spot, instant reality could be beamed into every household in the world.

So, for various widely divergent reasons reasons, MANY conspire for different reasons to preserve society. Not least the innocent observers by choosing to believe that which (to them, whoever they may have be) brings some closure.

So arising from this there are so many contradictions that people rightly 'sense' the full story has not been told.

Lee's last words to officialdom was that he would speak.

I suspect that when the final story (if at all) is told it will be one of multiple conspiracies. Various elements have since (indeed immediately started in the aftermath) sought to capitalise on and steer the public to 1. a view of the integrity of the US governement. 2. terrorize potential informants through murder and intimidation, 3. Throughout the ensuing long hot summers and assassinations (which in combination with the counterculture movements, the anti vietnam war movement, the civil rights struggles, non violent and militant, the various COINTELPRO ops, came very close at moments in various places of the USofA to a Civil War) consolidate a corporate fascist regime.

________________

addendum: (Much has been made of the deconstruction of the Kennedy's Presidency.

That this is attempted at all, is by itself a testament to the Kennedy's. Compare this to Ray(contra)guns relative mainstream 'untouchability.

I often wonder what Kennedy would have us do. IMO he was setting up structures and modus operandii that we can use nd emulate to honor his memory. IOW Education, research based descisions, tolerance, a steadfast lookout for the truth and wherever that may lead. And when needed, straightforward action.

In a sense, the Kennedy's did not fail. They acted, and faced consequences, right up to the last moment.

In this sense the assassinations (and the ongoing assassination of the personalities) have failed. They were bound to. Why else, almost half a century later are we here? Just to sell books? To voice opinions? In the millennia to come, the Kennedy's, and not the two bit players involved in the current processes, will be the ones remembered. In a troubled time in the 20th century they set a benchmark few will/have measure/d up to. Likewise the perps (and their latter day, witting and unwitting, co-conspirators) willl always be measured against this benchmark. That's the nature of these things.

One difference to past 'dark ages' could be that future historians will have a huge resource base, including this, and other forums like it, to wade through. Perhaps no longer a sanitized history or theirstory, but our story. Binary code embedded on many millions of pieces of storage media throughout the whole world. Not just scraps of papyrus in broken pottery.)

Edited April 1, 2007 by John Dolva

[Antti Hynonen]

Mark Valenti Posted Mar 31 2007, 09:47 PM

QUOTE(Don Jeffries @ Mar 29 2007, 06:07 AM)

As has been pointed out before over the years, JFK and Walker were political enemies and thus it is very unlikely that the same assassin would try to kill them both.

This may be one of the more important observations in the entire puzzle.

Tilt the seesaw one way and you have a leftie pro-Castroite.

Go the other way and you have a rabid right-winger.

Can't be both.

I believe in the theory that Lee's true political leanings were to the right, and his "role play" was the leftist, pro-Castro type persona. If one considers the magazines he subscribed to, his pro-Castro activities, statements he made etc. you get a very leftist view of him. On the other hand, many individuals close to him, describe him as an anti-Castro, right winger.

Edited April 2, 2007 by Antti Hynonen

[Charles Drago]

maybe, maybe not

I get it.

And I appreciate your response not only for its perceptions, but also for how it tends to confirm my hypotheses, as follows:

1. All intelligence operations worth the name have at least two objectives (Bud Fensterwald). Why can't we both be right?

2. There is a so-called "third alternative" that presents as we ask, Was LHO of the left or the right?

My answer: Yes.

How about LHO as playing and/or being played for and against both sides. For whatever my read of the guy(s) is worth, I can more easily accept an Oswald who placed himself above the fray and the symbiotic relationship enjoyed by its adversaries.

The description of LHO as a hippie before his time makes a great deal of sense to me.

Charles

[Guest Mark Valenti]

Lee himself, in his draft of his experiences in the Soviet Union, explained his position, writing that the Minutemen were closest to what was needed, except he had a 'new' agenda which was aimed at exploiting the "politically polarized society" that Kennedy saw the danger of. IOW Lee was in effect an infantile, disordered, extreme right winger, who quite likely participated in SOME role in the assassination, believing that what would follow would allow a new society to be born.

John,

I believe you are correct. There is one common thread among the known players - and it's not Cuba, CIA, oil or Baker. It's race.

[John Simkin]

David Talbot argues in his book, Brothers: The Hidden History of the Kennedy Years, that Walker's indoctrination program had been endorsed by General Lyman Lemnitzer. Talbot quotes a letter from Lemnitzer to Walker saying that he found his efforts "interesting and useful."

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKwalker.htm