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Does my memory fail me? Do either Garrison or Mellen think that Oswald was blackmailed by Banister, or that he was working with Banister because they were on the same side, or that Oswald was guilty of plotting with Banister and Ferrie to kill JFK? I think not.

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Does my memory fail me? Do either Garrison or Mellen think that Oswald was blackmailed by Banister, or that he was working with Banister because they were on the same side, or that Oswald was guilty of plotting with Banister and Ferrie to kill JFK? I think not.

Paul I laugh ....Banister manister this whole thread wacky

  • De Gaulle plot from CIA thus GATLIN CIA
see

Phillips is one of the most utterly fascinating suspects in the JFK case.

Simply take for example the fact that he and McCord ran the CIA’s counterintelligence program against the FPCC. I mean, does that not suggest that he may have been involved with what Oswald was doing in New Orleans in the summer of 1963? For the simple reason that too many people saw Oswald either at 544 Camp Street or with Banister and/or Ferrie. In Destiny Betrayed, I listed over ten witnesses who were credible on this issue. Including people like Bill Gaudet and Vernon Gerdes and Allen Campbell. (See pages 110-113) Therefore, if Oswald was an undercover agent against the FPCC, which he has all the earmarks of being, then Phillips likely knew what he was doing.

Then there is Phillips in Mexico City. And how he and Goodpasture controlled the daily take from the target embassies. And how the declassified ARRB files reveal that Phillips mailed the Oswald trasncripts to himself at Langley under a false name . Not to mention the fact that the Lopez Report catches Phillips in at least three lies. One of the things Hardway revealed in PIttsburgh was that the HSCA prepared two indictments for perjury about Mexico CIty, one for Phillips and one for Goodpasture. Did anyone see this on the MSM during the 50th?

One of the most ridiculous things about the WR and volumes is that Phillips’ name is not in the nearly 19,000 pages of materials. I mean, this may have been the guy managing Oswald at a mid level in the months leading up to the assassination.

Then there is the Veciana story about the SOuthland building and the story about Phillips’ last call to his brother. And the incredible confession at UCLA with Mark Lane, that when all was in, there was no evidence about Oswald being at the Soviet Embassy. I mean he should know since Lopez told me that Phillips and Goodpasture were as tight as Mutt and Jeff in Mexico City.

If there was ever a guy who you needed every bit of paper on declassified its this guy

++++++++++++++++++++

OFFICE OF SECURITY = McCord

This same Navy memo arrived at CIA and, after a Warren Report type "delayed reaction", eventually went to James Angleton's CI/SIG unit on December 6th. Angleton was chief of counter-intelligence. SIG was a kind of safeguard unit that protected the Agency from penetration agents. It was closely linked to the Office of Security in that regard. But as Newman queries: where was it for the previous 31 days? Newman notes that the Snyder cable and this Navy memo fell into a "black hole " somewhere. In fact, the very first file Newman could find on Oswald was not even at CI/SIG. It was at the Office of Security. This is all quite puzzling because, as the author notes, neither should have been the proper resting place for an initial file on Oswald. This black hole "kept the Oswald files away from the spot we would expect them to go-the Soviet Russia division." (p. 27)

++++++++++++++

William Turner, Rearview Mirror (2001)
-
That left Maurice Brooks Gatlin, Sr., an attorney associated with Banister, on Brooks's list of key Minutemen in Louisiana. According to Brooks, Gatlin served as legal counsel to the ACLC. In fact, Brooks had been a kind of protege of Gatlin. The attorney's passport was stamped with visas of countries around the world. In Brooks's estimation, he was a "transporter" for the CIA. On one occasion Gatlin bodaciously told Brooks, "I have pretty good connections. Stick with me-I'll give you a license to kill." Brooks became a firm believer in 1962 when Gatlin displayed a thick wad of bills, saying he had $ioo,ooo of CIA money earmarked for a French reactionary clique planning to assassinate General de Gaulle. Shortly thereafter Gatlin flew to Paris, and shortly after that came the Secret Army Organization's abortive ambush of the French president. But Gatlin as well was beyond Garrison's reach. In 1964 he fell or was pushed from the sixth floor of the Panama Hotel in Panama, dying instantly.
=
==
(Gaal)
Michael Paine a Cabot from both sides of his families worked at Bell Helicopter. The Cabots controlled the First National Bank of Boston which controlled Textron which controlled Bell Helicopter. Michael Paine thus worked for his family - the Cabots. Textron lobbied the Pentagon in 1958 for increased usage of helicopters in warfare. The death of JFK insured Textron (the Cabots) got its wish of increased helicopter warefare,AKA the Vietnam War.

Dulles and the Cabots were joined at the hip in secret covert operations. The Dulles brothers represented as lawyers United Fruit and also were large United Fruit investors and the Cabots were large United Fruit Investors.

=

SLATE By Ray Fisman

In 1951, Jacobo Árbenz Gúzman became Guatemala's second democratically elected president. Árbenz's authoritarian predecessors had been very sympathetic to American business interests, particularly those of the United Fruit Co. (now Chiquita), which had bought up land titles on the cheap from Guatemala's corrupt elite for its ever-expanding banana empire. Once in office, Presidente Árbenz sought to take it all back, nationalizing UFC's Guatemalan assets and redistributing them to the poor.

But UFC had friends in very high places—the assistant secretary of state for inter-American affairs, John Moor Cabot, was the brother of UFC President Thomas Cabot. The secretary of state himself, John Foster Dulles, had done legal work for UFC, and his brother Allen Dulles was director of the CIA and also on UFC's board. Thanks to the Freedom of Information Act, we now know that the various Cabots and Dulleses had a series of top-secret meetings in which they decided that Árbenz had to go and sponsored a coup that drove Árbenz from office in 1954.

=

(Gaal)

GATLIN wrote letters to the assistant secretary of state for inter-American affairs, John Moor Cabot (above) about the so-called communist activities of Guatemala's Jacobo Árbenz Gúzman. Did Gatlin appear on the radar of CABOT/DULLES as a possible intel asset in the 1950s ??

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

Anyone who thinks Walker did it is working for a Bobby Inman dominated school and his responses are political.Said school is named after man who now heads BLACKWATER AKA Xe AKA Academi.

===========

In any case, your case for a CIA plot to kill JFK is based only on political bias, and not on solid evidence. That's my final word on it.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

what's good for the goose is good for the gander (Gaal)

Edited by Steven Gaal
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Does my memory fail me? Do either Garrison or Mellen think that Oswald was blackmailed by Banister, or that he was working with Banister because they were on the same side, or that Oswald was guilty of plotting with Banister and Ferrie to kill JFK? I think not.

What we do in this case, Paul B., is refer to Jim Garrison's one and only document on the topic, namely, On the Trail of the Assassins (1988).

There we see how Jim Garrison sat up in his chair when he realized that the address stamped on this FPCC fliers was the address of Guy Banister, perhaps the most right-wing political candidate in NOLA.

There we see how Jim Garrison slowly came to realize that Lee Harvey Oswald was involved with a FAKE chapter of the FPCC in NOLA.

There we see how Jim Garrison slowly came to realize that this whole Left-wing street theater that Lee Harvey Oswald played on the streets of NOLA was all an ACT, and that he was working not only with Guy Banister, but also David Ferrie, Clay Shaw, Jack S. Martin, Fred Crisman, Thomas Beckham, Carlos Bringuier and Ed Butler -- all right-wing radicals.

It was on this basis that Jim Garrison recognized that Lee Harvey Oswald was FAR FROM A LONE SHOOTER, but had many, many accomplices -- all on the right-wing, and that his alleged contacts on the Left-wing were all on PAPER -- letters to New York offices he never saw in his life -- a visible paper trail for the whole world to see.

In other words, that Lee Harvey Oswald was a FAKE Leftist. Yet at the same time, he deliberately TRIED to portray himself as a Leftist.

One only needs to ask the True Leftists in 1963 about Lee Harvey Oswald -- in the pages of the Warren Commission, since they were summoned -- the top official of the FPCC, the editor of The Militant newspaper, and so forth. They all told the Warren Commission that Lee Harvey Oswald was a BOGUS leftist.

Oswald never joined the Communist Party -- not in the USA and not even in the USSR when he lived there for a few years.

Oswald never joined any Left-wing group in the USA, and never hung out with Left-wing people -- NOT ONE. (The one person filmed with Oswald handing out FPCC fliers was HIRED for MONEY. Ridiculous.)

On the contrary -- as all these left-wing leaders pointed out to Earl Warren's people -- all of Lee Harvey Oswald's actual day to day associates were right-wing thugs of the worst sort.

Now -- this poses a problem for those who want to believe that Lee Harvey Oswald was an innocent little angel -- a pacifist who wouldn't hurt a fly. But this requires a nuance -- and at first Jim Garrison was pretty good at nuances. Lee Harvey Oswald could be INNOCENT of killing JFK, but still be a constant companion with Guy Banister, David Ferrie, Clay Shaw, and all the rest in NOLA -- the people who FRAMED him.

We must focus on this question -- as Jim Garrison did -- how could Lee Harvey Oswald be so blind as to let himself be FRAMED? How could Lee Harvey Oswald be so blind as to actually put his own rifle into the hands of the extreme right-wingers who FRAMED him with it?

The most radical double-agent would never be so stupid.

Only somebody who truly TRUSTED those radical right wingers, could behave so trusting towards them to let himself be FOOLED by them.

We have to look at how Lee Harvey Oswald was FOOLED by the right-wing.

As Tommy Graves wisely asked -- if Oswald really was an Intelligence Agent, then how in the world could he have become FRAMED by the JFK murderers? It's a GREAT question.

The best explanation of all the available evidence is that Guy Banister (along with Edwin Walker and others) was MANIPULATING Lee Harvey Oswald and FOOLING him to making him into an Unwitting Patsy in the murder of JFK.

Jim Garrison recognized the NOLA part -- the Guy Banister part. Jim Garrison, sadly, didn't see the Edwin Walker part -- so at the end of his failed case against Clay Shaw, he ended up by (erroneously) blaming the CIA for the whole mess.

Jim Garrison was brilliant and we owe most of what we know about the JFK plot to him -- but Jim Garrison FAILED to solve the JFK murder -- and those who admire him most should attempt to COMPLETE his unfinished work.

Sincerely,

--Paul Trejo

<edit typos>

Edited by Paul Trejo
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Garrison did not think that Oswald was part of the plot. Thanks for confirming that.

Yes, Paul B., Jim Garrison denied that Oswald was part of the JFK murder plot -- that's very important.

However, Jim Garrison also found that "Operation Mongoose" was in play -- at least in title -- inside the offices of Guy Banister.

Here's what Garrison says in his revealing 1988 book. Jack S. Martin, a clever Private Detective, yet a hopeless alcoholic, worked for Guy Banister in NOLA during 1963. Long story short -- Martin decided one day in 1966 to tell Jim Garrison the whole story about Guy Banister's operation and involvement with Lee Harvey Oswald and the JFK murder.

Jack S. Martin told Jim Garrison that they had been working on "Operation Mongoose" that summer, and that David Ferrie was planning to be Lee Oswald's "getaway pilot." Jack Martin gave Jim Garrison most of the information that he would later use to prosecute the case for a JFK conspiracy.

Jack S. Martin specifically pinpointed Guy Banister, David Ferrie and Clay Shaw as central to the plot. Yet Banister had died in 1965. So, in 1966 Jim Garrison picked up David Ferrie for questioning, and obtained a striking confession from David Ferrie, at least to the details that Ferrie could share. At this point, Jim Garrison questioned Clay Shaw, and then all hell broke loose -- almost immediately, David Ferrie was found dead.

Originally, David Ferrie was going to be the central suspect in Jim Garrison's case -- so his case was almost entirely demolished when David Ferrie was found dead. Garrison then shifted his attention to Clay Shaw, who simply denied everything. Eventually, Jim Garrison lost the case.

Jim Garrison never summoned Jack S. Martin to trial, because of a deal he made with Martin -- total anonymity and immunity in exchange for the truth. Jim Garrison was astounded that everything told to him by Jack S. Martin turned out to be correct. Yet it wasn't until Jack S. Martin died in the 1980's, that Garrison felt freed from his promise to write his 1988 book, On the Trail of the Assassins.

Jim Garrison's investigation found lots of details, but the overall big picture originally came from Jack S. Martin, and was confirmed by David Ferrie. This is why Jim Garrison always felt certain that he had the TRUTH on his side -- he had secret information from an Insider.

Failing to make anything stick against Clay Shaw, Jim Garrison finally just blamed the CIA for the whole thing. This wasn't due to hard evidence, but only to despair at having lost what was at one point a totally "winnable" case. Who else could he blame?

Jim Garrison was regarded as a hero to Warren Commission critics, and as a nut-case to the majority of Americans. For this reason, his defenders continue to claim that the CIA and the "Invisible Government" conspired against Jim Garrison.

What I believe happened -- though Jim Garrison never realized it -- was that J. Edgar Hoover was never going to let go of his "Lone Shooter" theory as long as he lived. Hoover's belief was that this was necessary for National Security. Because of that, Jim Garrison appeared to Hoover to be a well-meaning child who was toying with National Security.

Jim Garrison gave birth to the JFK Research Community, IMHO, but Jim Garrison wasn't perfect. He failed to see, IMHO, that the Cover-Up Team was completely separate from the Kill-Team in the JFK murder. These two groups had OPPOSITE goals, and OPPOSITE portraits of Lee Harvey Oswald. Jim Garrison (and his many followers) never figured that out.

ANYWAY -- Lee Harvey Oswald was NOT a part of the JFK Kill-Team -- so then how did he get twisted into being their PATSY? The logical explanation, as suggested by Jack S. Martin's data, is that Lee Harvey Oswald totally believed that he was a part of "Operation Mongoose" (the plot to assassinate Fidel Castro).

Why would Oswald become involved in that plot? Many possible motives -- he could have been offered a ton of money, a hero's parade and a government job if he succeeded in killing Fidel Castro. Or, Oswald might have been blackmailed into cooperating, as Ron Lewis claims.

Whatever his motives, Lee Harvey Oswald spent the summer of 1963 in New Orleans in the company of right-wing radicals, including Loran Hall, Larry Howard, Gerry Patrick Hemming, Carlos Bringuier, Antonio Veciania, David Atlee Phillips, Guy Banister, David Ferrie, Clay Shaw -- AND MANY MORE.

This is what Jack S. Martin revealed to Jim Garrison. The information could easily be verified by someone with the power of a District Attorney in NOLA -- and that's just what Jim Garrison did.

So -- in summary -- Oswald wasn't part of the JFK Kill-Team -- but Oswald was a part of "Operation Mongoose" (even if that Operation was no longer sponsored by the State Department, even if it had gone underground, or even if it was only a ruse to motivate Lee Harvey Oswald to FAKE being an FPCC officer). That's how the evidence stacks up, IMHO.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

<edit typos>

Edited by Paul Trejo
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Black is white and white is black. I don't need a recanting of everything, honestly. Let me just say that Oswald being in the company of many men who were involved in plots, CIA or rogue, for three months does not prove he was a part of Operation Mongoose.

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...

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

Anyone who thinks Walker did it is working for a Bobby Inman dominated school and his responses are political.Said school is named after man who now heads BLACKWATER AKA Xe AKA Academi.

===========

what's good for the goose is good for the gander (Gaal)

Steven, if you're saying that Bobby Inman has evidence that Ex-General Edwin Walker led the plot to murder JFK, then I would be DELIGHTED to see it. This is news to me.

Sincerely,

--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
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...

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

Anyone who thinks Walker did it is working for a Bobby Inman dominated school and his responses are political.Said school is named after man who now heads BLACKWATER AKA Xe AKA Academi.

===========

what's good for the goose is good for the gander (Gaal)

Steven, if you're saying that Bobby Inman has evidence that Ex-General Edwin Walker led the plot to murder JFK, then I would be DELIGHTED to see it. This is news to me.

Sincerely,

--Paul Trejo

No derogatory comment ,but English not really your first language. Person is working for a Bobby Inman dominated school not Inman himself. Common sense tell us there is a Cia liaison with all BLACKWATER AKA Xe AKA Academi large operations.

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...

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

Anyone who thinks Walker did it is working for a Bobby Inman dominated school and his responses are political.Said school is named after man who now heads BLACKWATER AKA Xe AKA Academi.

===========

what's good for the goose is good for the gander (Gaal)

Steven, if you're saying that Bobby Inman has evidence that Ex-General Edwin Walker led the plot to murder JFK, then I would be DELIGHTED to see it. This is news to me.

Sincerely,

--Paul Trejo

No derogatory comment, but English not really your first language.

[...]

You've got a lot of damn gall, Gaal.

Trejo writes English much better than you do.

At least he writes in complete, intelligible sentences.

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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...

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

Anyone who thinks Walker did it is working for a Bobby Inman dominated school and his responses are political.Said school is named after man who now heads BLACKWATER AKA Xe AKA Academi.

===========

what's good for the goose is good for the gander (Gaal)

Steven, if you're saying that Bobby Inman has evidence that Ex-General Edwin Walker led the plot to murder JFK, then I would be DELIGHTED to see it. This is news to me.

Sincerely,

--Paul Trejo

No derogatory comment, but English not really your first language.

[...]

You've got a lot of damn gall, Gaal.

Trejo writes English much better than you do.

At least he writes in complete, intelligible sentences.

--Tommy :sun

You have got a lot of Paul ,Thomas.

Trejo ignores the key points of my posts .like any USA politician

He ignores truths in complete sentences.(like any USA politician)

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Posted 12 November 2014 - 10:40 PM

Paul Brancato, on 12 Nov 2014 - 1:47 PM, said:

Does my memory fail me? Do either Garrison or Mellen think that Oswald was blackmailed by Banister, or that he was working with Banister because they were on the same side, or that Oswald was guilty of plotting with Banister and Ferrie to kill JFK? I think not.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

(GAAL POST)

Paul I laugh ....Banister manister this whole thread wacky

  • De Gaulle plot from CIA thus GATLIN CIA
see

Phillips is one of the most utterly fascinating suspects in the JFK case.

Simply take for example the fact that he and McCord ran the CIA’s counterintelligence program against the FPCC. I mean, does that not suggest that he may have been involved with what Oswald was doing in New Orleans in the summer of 1963? For the simple reason that too many people saw Oswald either at 544 Camp Street or with Banister and/or Ferrie. In Destiny Betrayed, I listed over ten witnesses who were credible on this issue. Including people like Bill Gaudet and Vernon Gerdes and Allen Campbell. (See pages 110-113) Therefore, if Oswald was an undercover agent against the FPCC, which he has all the earmarks of being, then Phillips likely knew what he was doing.

Then there is Phillips in Mexico City. And how he and Goodpasture controlled the daily take from the target embassies. And how the declassified ARRB files reveal that Phillips mailed the Oswald trasncripts to himself at Langley under a false name . Not to mention the fact that the Lopez Report catches Phillips in at least three lies. One of the things Hardway revealed in PIttsburgh was that the HSCA prepared two indictments for perjury about Mexico CIty, one for Phillips and one for Goodpasture. Did anyone see this on the MSM during the 50th?

One of the most ridiculous things about the WR and volumes is that Phillips’ name is not in the nearly 19,000 pages of materials. I mean, this may have been the guy managing Oswald at a mid level in the months leading up to the assassination.

Then there is the Veciana story about the SOuthland building and the story about Phillips’ last call to his brother. And the incredible confession at UCLA with Mark Lane, that when all was in, there was no evidence about Oswald being at the Soviet Embassy. I mean he should know since Lopez told me that Phillips and Goodpasture were as tight as Mutt and Jeff in Mexico City.

If there was ever a guy who you needed every bit of paper on declassified its this guy

++++++++++++++++++++

OFFICE OF SECURITY = McCord

This same Navy memo arrived at CIA and, after a Warren Report type "delayed reaction", eventually went to James Angleton's CI/SIG unit on December 6th. Angleton was chief of counter-intelligence. SIG was a kind of safeguard unit that protected the Agency from penetration agents. It was closely linked to the Office of Security in that regard. But as Newman queries: where was it for the previous 31 days? Newman notes that the Snyder cable and this Navy memo fell into a "black hole " somewhere. In fact, the very first file Newman could find on Oswald was not even at CI/SIG. It was at the Office of Security. This is all quite puzzling because, as the author notes, neither should have been the proper resting place for an initial file on Oswald. This black hole "kept the Oswald files away from the spot we would expect them to go-the Soviet Russia division." (p. 27)

++++++++++++++

William Turner, Rearview Mirror (2001)
-
That left Maurice Brooks Gatlin, Sr., an attorney associated with Banister, on Brooks's list of key Minutemen in Louisiana. According to Brooks, Gatlin served as legal counsel to the ACLC. In fact, Brooks had been a kind of protege of Gatlin. The attorney's passport was stamped with visas of countries around the world. In Brooks's estimation, he was a "transporter" for the CIA. On one occasion Gatlin bodaciously told Brooks, "I have pretty good connections. Stick with me-I'll give you a license to kill." Brooks became a firm believer in 1962 when Gatlin displayed a thick wad of bills, saying he had $ioo,ooo of CIA money earmarked for a French reactionary clique planning to assassinate General de Gaulle. Shortly thereafter Gatlin flew to Paris, and shortly after that came the Secret Army Organization's abortive ambush of the French president. But Gatlin as well was beyond Garrison's reach. In 1964 he fell or was pushed from the sixth floor of the Panama Hotel in Panama, dying instantly.
=
from POST #4 this thread. (( http://educationforu...=21367&p=289623 ))
==
(Gaal)
Michael Paine a Cabot from both sides of his families worked at Bell Helicopter. The Cabots controlled the First National Bank of Boston which controlled Textron which controlled Bell Helicopter. Michael Paine thus worked for his family - the Cabots. Textron lobbied the Pentagon in 1958 for increased usage of helicopters in warfare. The death of JFK insured Textron (the Cabots) got its wish of increased helicopter warefare,AKA the Vietnam War.

Dulles and the Cabots were joined at the hip in secret covert operations. The Dulles brothers represented as lawyers United Fruit and also were large United Fruit investors and the Cabots were large United Fruit Investors.

=

SLATE By Ray Fisman

In 1951, Jacobo Árbenz Gúzman became Guatemala's second democratically elected president. Árbenz's authoritarian predecessors had been very sympathetic to American business interests, particularly those of the United Fruit Co. (now Chiquita), which had bought up land titles on the cheap from Guatemala's corrupt elite for its ever-expanding banana empire. Once in office, Presidente Árbenz sought to take it all back, nationalizing UFC's Guatemalan assets and redistributing them to the poor.

But UFC had friends in very high places—the assistant secretary of state for inter-American affairs, John Moor Cabot, was the brother of UFC President Thomas Cabot. The secretary of state himself, John Foster Dulles, had done legal work for UFC, and his brother Allen Dulles was director of the CIA and also on UFC's board. Thanks to the Freedom of Information Act, we now know that the various Cabots and Dulleses had a series of top-secret meetings in which they decided that Árbenz had to go and sponsored a coup that drove Árbenz from office in 1954.

=

(Gaal)

GATLIN wrote letters to the assistant secretary of state for inter-American affairs, John Moor Cabot (above) about the so-called communist activities of Guatemala's Jacobo Árbenz Gúzman. Did Gatlin appear on the radar of CABOT/DULLES as a possible intel asset in the 1950s ??

Edited by Steven Gaal
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...Person is working for a Bobby Inman dominated school not Inman himself. Common sense tell us there is a CIA liaison with all BLACKWATER AKA Xe AKA Academi large operations.

Sadly, Steven, I've seen a sort of paranoia about the CIA from a few Forum members -- and it only makes me sigh.

I'm not defending the CIA -- they can defend themselves, surely.

What I'm saying to perhaps MOST of the contributors to the Forum (e.g. those following Peter Dale Scott and so on) is that your case against the CIA relies more on CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE than the FBI case against Lee Harvey Oswald!

And Oswald was innocent of the JFK murder!

I've repeatedly said -- if anybody comes up with solid evidence against the CIA as an official organization to prove that they killed JFK, then I'll fold my hand and admit I was wrong.

I'm only seeking the TRUTH. So far, the CIA-did-it school of JFK research only makes me laugh (and sigh). They are just about as silly, IMHO, as those who blame LBJ or Bush or Hoover or the Secret Service or the Mafia or the Mormons.

We have ground-crew members who CONFESSED. This is where serious researchers should be digging and digging!

Again -- I'll repeat myself -- I agree with Jim Garrison's view that without SOME support from the official organizations, including the CIA (e.g. David Morales and E. Howard Hunt) and the Secret Service (e.g. the lead car in the motorcade) and the DPD (e.g. Roscoe White and Jesse Curry) and the Mafia (e.g. Carlos Marcello and Santos Trafficante) and the Cuban Exile Brigade riff-raff (e.g. Gerry Patrick Hemming, Frank Sturgis, Loran Hall, Larry Howard, John Martino, David Ferrie, Eladio Del Valle, etc.), and the JBS (e.g. H.L. Hunt, Clint Murchison, Robert Morris, Clyde Watts), and *former* FBI members (e.g. Guy Banister), the plot could not have gone forward.

IMHO, the best person to organize the entire JFK plot would have been an Ex-General of the US Army with a personal vendetta against JFK and RFK. He would have been an expert in paramilitary planning, coordination and execution. He would have been resourceful on a national scale.

Yet when we put together a list of the ground-crew WHO ACTUALLY CONFESSED, of these dozen or so, we have only TWO who were CONFIRMED in the CIA.

So, why keep banging a drum against the CIA, when MOST of the JFK plotters were CIVILIANS? (Yes I know that Jim Garrison gave up and just blamed the CIA for everything, and his gifted protoge, Joan Mellen, followed in his footsteps, but even Joan Mellen only confirmed that the Confessors she uncovered were mere riff-raff PRETENDING to be in the CIA.)

It seems to me that the officials in high places only HELPED in the planning and execution. That's what the evidence shows me. I'm not going to change my mind just because people insult me online -- that's simply IRRELEVANT. (Also, my place of employment is totally irrelevant, Steven, so quit it; or rather, where do YOU work, Steven? Maybe THEY'D like to see THEIR name in Internet flame wars!)

So, come off it, Steven. Your drum-banging against the CIA is just so much noise and clatter. You don't have a smoking gun. You don't have much at all, except a few, noisy, grand theorists of "Structural Events" and the so-called "Invisible Government."

Come up with some harder evidence than INNUENDO, Steven. I'm beginning to wonder if you ever will.

Sincerely,

--Paul Trejo

Edited by Kathy Beckett
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Steven may sometimes misspell, but his links are usually pertinent and interesting. Paul T - you are way out in left field, and the further out you stray, the harder you try to drag the mainstream with you. The lines you attempt to draw between civilian and CIA are fictitious, and you are increasingly fond of calling anything resembling evidence presented to you paranoia or innuendo, but have no problem calling your findings evidence. Confessions from known liars and witnesses without corroboratory material hardly constitutes evidence. Meanwhile, actual evidence of connections between Oswald and all kinds of official CIA and FBI you conveniently spin in your direction. Just take one example - David Atlee Phillips. How can you call an operation civilian when Harvey, Morales, Veciana, Phillips, Bringuier, are all over these connections? Not to mention Angleton, Dulles, Helms. It is not Garrison, Mellen, Scott, Hancock, and many other important researchers who are mistaken or paranoid, it is you who is blind. In my opinion..

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...Just take one example - David Atlee Phillips. How can you call an operation civilian when Harvey, Morales, Veciana, Phillips, Bringuier, are all over these connections? Not to mention Angleton, Dulles, Helms.

It is not Garrison, Mellen, Scott, Hancock, and many other important researchers who are mistaken or paranoid, it is you who is blind. In my opinion..

OK, Paul B., let's take your example. You have no hard EVIDENCE that David Atlee Phillips was involved in the JFK murder.

He might have been. Do you have a photograph at Dealey Plaza on 11/22/1963 showing him there? That would help your case significantly.

Maybe such a photograph exists -- but until it's made public, then your guesswork about David Atlee Phillips amounts to innuendo. He was in the CIA. You don't like the CIA. He knew Lee Harvey Oswald. Bingo -- you jump to a conclusion.

The most obvious explanation for this high-ranking CIA Officer, David Atlee Phillips, seen with Lee Harvey Oswald in Dallas during the summer of 1963 by Alpha 66 leader, Antonio Veciana, is the context of a plot to murder Fidel Castro (e.g. something like "Operation Mongoose").

We know that Lee Harvey Oswald was trying very hard to get hired as a spy -- and this would fit the profile like a glove. Alpha 66 was all about murdering Fidel Castro. David Atlee Phillips was all about murdering Fidel Castro.

You don't see how the puzzle fits? In my theory, Lee Harvey Oswald went to Mexico City with the intention of ultimately murdering Fidel Castro. This is where both Veciana and David Atlee Phillips fit in the plan. Phillips even mentions Oswald in Mexico City -- in the context of harming the Cuban Communists. So, the puzzle pieces fit.

Now, you want me to change my mind about a CIVILIAN plot to kill JFK, and you give me five names: William Harvey, David Morales, David Atlee Phillips, Antonio Veciana and Carlos Bringuier.

OK, let's look at these five. FIRST and foremost, Veciana and Bringuier are CIVILIANS. They are not CIA Officers. Yes, they accepted money from the CIA for this or that minor contract -- but they remain CIVILIANS.

SECONDLY, William Harvey was drunk as a skunk in Italy in 1963, stationed there by RFK for insubordination in 1962, so he was nowhere near Dealey Plaza. Whether he helped to plan the JFK murder by telephone is doubtful.

THIRDLY, David Atlee Phillips (like Veciana and Bringuier) was devoted to the plot against Fidel Castro.

FINALLY, in that list of five, only David Morales is a solid suspect, having confessed through his friend, Ruben Carbajal.

So, Paul B., your score (IMHO) is one out of five. Not so good.

Next, you mention Angleton, Dulles, Helms. I believe you won't even get a "Shadow Warfare" guru like Larry Hancock to agree with you that these three high-level CIA Officers were involved in the JFK murder!

In fact, Bill Simpich's new book, State Secret, presents superb evidence that these three were involved in a mole hunt to find out who impersonated Lee Harvey Oswald in Mexico City. It was probably David Morales, but these three princes in the CIA had no clue in 1963-1965 about good old Dave.

So there it is, Paul B; in your list of eight names, you have only one CIA Officer that can stick with hard evidence.

As for great JFK researchers like Garrison, Mellen and Hancock, and many others who suspect that the CIA killed JFK, I don't say that they're paranoid, because their careful work shows their careful thinking. I'm only saying that they were mistaken whenever they were tempted to jump to a conclusion that the CIA killed JFK. (It's only some of their readers who weave wilder stories about CIA plots that worry me.)

Look at the people that Jim Garrison found: Guy Banister, David Ferrie, Clay Shaw, Jack S. Martin and Thomas Edward Beckham. Not one was a CIA Officer. Clay Shaw was an asset of the CIA because of his wide worldly travels and superb communication skills. But he wasn't a CIA Officer.

Ferrie, Martin and Beckham were basically street-thugs. Guy Banister was former FBI, but evidently cut ties with the FBI because he wanted to be a leader of the racist rightwing in the South.

So, Jim Garrison did not (contrary to popular opinion) prove that the CIA killed JFK -- he only proved that this motley of street-thugs that he found (some of whom confessed) were going around pretending to be in the CIA, probably so that they could score dates with the hot youths of New Orleans. (This is something that Jim Garrison explored.)

As for Joan Mellen, she basically continued the work of Jim Garrison, extending his viewpoint for the next generation, but ultimately naming nobody new -- everybody she named was already named by Jim Garrison. Joan Mellen's focus on Fred Crisman didn't show that he was CIA -- that was her guess -- but he appears to be just another street-thug who was used by the CIA as a low-level asset, a gopher, and then went around giving young men the impression that he was in the CIA. So, Mellen didn't prove any CIA connection, either.

As for Larry Hancock, he doesn't name the same people you name, Paul B., as direct JFK conspirators. In fact, Larry tends to name (after David Morales, and E. Howard Hunt, who confessed) mainly Cuban Exiles -- that is, low-level street-thugs amongst the Bay of Pigs losers.

Again -- maybe some CIA *Rogues* joined their Cuban Exile pals in this madness -- but I don't see one iota of hard evidence that the Official CIA was involved in the JFK murder.

Of course, Larry Hancock is on this Forum, and he can correct me if I'm mistaken about his position.

So, Paul B., I say that you (much like Steven Gaal) are satisfied with innuendo in order to jump to conclusions about the CIA killing JFK. By contrast, the hard evidence we have against resigned Major General Edwin A. Walker begins with the Warren Commission volumes and is growing monthly.

If you say I'm wrong -- or "blind" as you put it -- then show me some strong evidence to change my mind. I'm open to strong evidence. Here's a clue -- insults aren't arguments. They won't change my opinion in the slightest.

Sincerely,

--Paul Trejo

<edit typos>

Edited by Paul Trejo
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FYI:

This morning I asked NARA to process Edwin Walker's FBI-Dallas field file (157-218). I was informed that this file totals 581 pages. Unfortunately, NARA informs me that their current processing time is about one year for files 500 pages or less and as much as three years for larger files.

I also am sending a new FOIA request to the FBI for numerous files which contain serials related to Walker such as the HQ file on the Special Preparedness Subcommittee on Armed Services (Military Cold War Education and Speech Review Policies) along with files concerning Walker's association with several KKK groups in various states such as Majority Citizens League in Columbia SC, and Walker's involvement with groups like:

Western American Security Police

American Royal Rangers

Citizens Council of Louisiana

United Klans of America

and one file which totally escaped me the first time I noticed it umpteen years ago -- i.e. a file pertaining to Walker's involvement with and support of a planned revolution in Costa Rica.

Some of these files I originally received 20 years ago as paper docs. If they are still available, I will post them online in the future on Internet Archive.

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SECONDLY, William Harvey was drunk as a skunk in Italy in 1963, stationed there by RFK for insubordination in 1962, so he was nowhere near Dealey Plaza. Whether he helped to plan the JFK murder by telephone is doubtful /// Paul Trejo

++++++++++++++\

GAAL

He was always drinking. Trejo has no clue were HARVEY was on 11/22. Had a sharp mind. In 63 was close to James Jesus Angleton. You make it sound like in 63 he was on his death bed........Harvey died in 76 (BTW I thought Hunt (in confessions you like) fingered Harvey ??)

========

Peter Wright, Spycatcher (1987)

Harvey was already a living legend in the CIA for his hard drinking and his cowboy manners. He began his career handling Soviet counterespionage for the FBI, until Hoover sacked him for drunkenness. He promptly took his invaluable FBI knowledge and put it to work for the fledgling CIA, becoming along with Angleton one of the most influential American operators in the secret war against the KGB. Through most of the 1950s he served in Berlin, running agents, digging tunnels, and taking the battle to the Soviets wherever possible. For him, the Cold War was as real as if it had been hand-to-hand combat. But for all his crude aggression, Harvey was smart, with a nose for a spy. It was he who first fingered Philby in the USA after the defection of Burgess and Maclean. Harvey had amazing recall for the details of defections and cases decades before, and it was he, before anyone else, who put together the contradictory strands of the M16 man's career. While others paused for doubt, Harvey pursued Philby with implacable vengeance, and the incident left him with a streak of vindictive anti-British sentiment.

William Harvey died as a result of complications from heart surgery in June, 1976.

######

GAAL

Paul Trejo conjectures a great demarcation between CIA and the USA far right . This dosent trend with horrible things (for Trejo) called facts.
CIA/Dulles had access to USA far right.

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  • De Gaulle plot is from CIA thus GATLIN CIA
see

Phillips is one of the most utterly fascinating suspects in the JFK case.

Simply take for example the fact that he and McCord ran the CIA’s counterintelligence program against the FPCC. I mean, does that not suggest that he may have been involved with what Oswald was doing in New Orleans in the summer of 1963? For the simple reason that too many people saw Oswald either at 544 Camp Street or with Banister and/or Ferrie. In Destiny Betrayed, I listed over ten witnesses who were credible on this issue. Including people like Bill Gaudet and Vernon Gerdes and Allen Campbell. (See pages 110-113) Therefore, if Oswald was an undercover agent against the FPCC, which he has all the earmarks of being, then Phillips likely knew what he was doing.

Then there is Phillips in Mexico City. And how he and Goodpasture controlled the daily take from the target embassies. And how the declassified ARRB files reveal that Phillips mailed the Oswald trasncripts to himself at Langley under a false name . Not to mention the fact that the Lopez Report catches Phillips in at least three lies. One of the things Hardway revealed in PIttsburgh was that the HSCA prepared two indictments for perjury about Mexico CIty, one for Phillips and one for Goodpasture. Did anyone see this on the MSM during the 50th?

One of the most ridiculous things about the WR and volumes is that Phillips’ name is not in the nearly 19,000 pages of materials. I mean, this may have been the guy managing Oswald at a mid level in the months leading up to the assassination.

Then there is the Veciana story about the SOuthland building and the story about Phillips’ last call to his brother. And the incredible confession at UCLA with Mark Lane, that when all was in, there was no evidence about Oswald being at the Soviet Embassy. I mean he should know since Lopez told me that Phillips and Goodpasture were as tight as Mutt and Jeff in Mexico City.

If there was ever a guy who you needed every bit of paper on declassified its this guy

++++++++++++++++++++

OFFICE OF SECURITY = McCord

This same Navy memo arrived at CIA and, after a Warren Report type "delayed reaction", eventually went to James Angleton's CI/SIG unit on December 6th. Angleton was chief of counter-intelligence. SIG was a kind of safeguard unit that protected the Agency from penetration agents. It was closely linked to the Office of Security in that regard. But as Newman queries: where was it for the previous 31 days? Newman notes that the Snyder cable and this Navy memo fell into a "black hole " somewhere. In fact, the very first file Newman could find on Oswald was not even at CI/SIG. It was at the Office of Security. This is all quite puzzling because, as the author notes, neither should have been the proper resting place for an initial file on Oswald. This black hole "kept the Oswald files away from the spot we would expect them to go-the Soviet Russia division." (p. 27)

++++++++++++++

William Turner, Rearview Mirror (2001)
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That left Maurice Brooks Gatlin, Sr., an attorney associated with Banister, on Brooks's list of key Minutemen in Louisiana. According to Brooks, Gatlin served as legal counsel to the ACLC. In fact, Brooks had been a kind of protege of Gatlin. The attorney's passport was stamped with visas of countries around the world. In Brooks's estimation, he was a "transporter" for the CIA. On one occasion Gatlin bodaciously told Brooks, "I have pretty good connections. Stick with me-I'll give you a license to kill." Brooks became a firm believer in 1962 when Gatlin displayed a thick wad of bills, saying he had $ioo,ooo of CIA money earmarked for a French reactionary clique planning to assassinate General de Gaulle. Shortly thereafter Gatlin flew to Paris, and shortly after that came the Secret Army Organization's abortive ambush of the French president. But Gatlin as well was beyond Garrison's reach. In 1964 he fell or was pushed from the sixth floor of the Panama Hotel in Panama, dying instantly.
=
from POST #4 this thread. (( http://educationforu...=21367&p=289623 ))
==
(Gaal)
Michael Paine a Cabot from both sides of his families worked at Bell Helicopter. The Cabots controlled the First National Bank of Boston which controlled Textron which controlled Bell Helicopter. Michael Paine thus worked for his family - the Cabots. Textron lobbied the Pentagon in 1958 for increased usage of helicopters in warfare. The death of JFK insured Textron (the Cabots) got its wish of increased helicopter warefare,AKA the Vietnam War.
Dulles and the Cabots were joined at the hip in secret covert operations. The Dulles brothers represented as lawyers United Fruit and also were large United Fruit investors and the Cabots were large United Fruit Investors.
=
SLATE By Ray Fisman

In 1951, Jacobo Árbenz Gúzman became Guatemala's second democratically elected president. Árbenz's authoritarian predecessors had been very sympathetic to American business interests, particularly those of the United Fruit Co. (now Chiquita), which had bought up land titles on the cheap from Guatemala's corrupt elite for its ever-expanding banana empire. Once in office, Presidente Árbenz sought to take it all back, nationalizing UFC's Guatemalan assets and redistributing them to the poor.

But UFC had friends in very high places—the assistant secretary of state for inter-American affairs, John Moor Cabot, was the brother of UFC President Thomas Cabot. The secretary of state himself, John Foster Dulles, had done legal work for UFC, and his brother Allen Dulles was director of the CIA and also on UFC's board. Thanks to the Freedom of Information Act, we now know that the various Cabots and Dulleses had a series of top-secret meetings in which they decided that Árbenz had to go and sponsored a coup that drove Árbenz from office in 1954.

=

(Gaal)

GATLIN wrote letters to the assistant secretary of state for inter-American affairs, John Moor Cabot (above) about the so-called communist activities of Guatemala's Jacobo Árbenz Gúzman. Did Gatlin appear on the radar of CABOT/DULLES as a possible intel asset in the 1950s ??

Edited by Steven Gaal
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