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Cliff, I'm reading from the transcript on Bill's blog site and I do not find any sign of actually communication between Johnson himself and Bundy followiong the initial call from Jophnson where he discussed the return and the oath of office (Manchester p 270), later aides passed along separate info to Bundy on arrival arrangements. I don't see any conversation such as that you quoted but I might be missing it. Could you look and check.

http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/search?q=air+force+one+transcript

Also, I do see several instances of where the Situation Room is reading right off the news wire or from broadcasts to the Air Force One in general, but no specific message to be passed to Johnson..

Edited by Larry Hancock
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Larry - as much as I respect you and your work I have to agree with Greg Burnam that explaining Bundy's actions by referring to what was coming over the news wires is too simplistic. We know, for instance, that descriptions of Oswald that went out to Dallas police looking for the assassin not only happened too quickly, but, as PD Scott and others point out, dovetailed with false physical descriptions in Oswald's segregated CIA files. The coverup, the rallying around an already captured lone assassin, happened way to quickly to be accounted for by a confluence of interests and efforts to contain and control the story, or by early news reports being listened to in the situation room. For me this all amounts to some kind of evidence that the kill and coverup teams intersected. It's the most obvious and likely explanation.

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Paul, I'm going to do some further research on exactly what Bundy did communicate during those first hours...specifically to Air Force One which was what my comment was in regards to. I want to make sure it was Bundy himself speaking, who he was talking to and to whom the message was directed. I also want to confirm some other things as well. I've come to mistrust a number of things that have been bandied about as absolute fact over the years - as well as my memory - and before commenting further I need to do a fact check. Also, as I mentioned to Cliff, my remark only relates to anything Bundy may have communicated during the very first few of hours following the assassination. I'll respond further but in the interim I would suggest anyone interested read the full transcript below and that we move this to another thread rather than taking this one even further off track than it normally goes.

http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/search?q=air+force+one+transcript

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Cliff, I'm reading from the transcript on Bill's blog site and I do not find any sign of actually communication between Johnson himself and Bundy, only various aides and Bundy. I don't see any conversation such as that you quoted but I might be missing it. Could you look and check.

http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/search?q=air+force+one+transcript

Also, I do see several instances of where the Situation Room is reading right off the news wire or from broadcasts to the Air Force One in general, but no specific message to be passed to Johnson..

The Bundy call isn't in the extant transcripts.

William Manchester and Theodore White quoted Bundy from transcripts they'd seen but are now deep-sixed.

See Bill Kelly's "Off the Tapes -- What's missing from AF1 Radio Tapes"

http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/2012/03/off-tapes-whats-missing-from-af1-radio.html

Edited by Cliff Varnell
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Cliff, I'm pretty familiar with the stages of the transcripts, actually what Bundy was given an edited version to work from - after hearing of the tapes existence, pestering the White House, being turned down and ultimately being given the edited version we have now. The revelation from a couple of years ago was of an intermediate version of the transcript which had been withheld but only now has become available. We do know that Manchester was given a version of Johnson's telephone call log which was later revised for the official record - I came up with that in comparing the extant call record to the calls and call times Manchester discusses. But to my understanding Manchester was writing about telephone calls based on the transcript we have now plus his personal interviews with the participants.

I'll be going to Manchester's book shortly but to save me time could you me a citation for the Johnson/Bundy lone assassin call you quoted...that would be a great help, thanks, Larry

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Cliff, I'm pretty familiar with the stages of the transcripts, actually what Bundy was given an edited version to work from - after hearing of the tapes existence, pestering the White House, being turned down and ultimately being given the edited version we have now. The revelation from a couple of years ago was of an intermediate version of the transcript which had been withheld but only now has become available. We do know that Manchester was given a version of Johnson's telephone call log which was later revised for the official record - I came up with that in comparing the extant call record to the calls and call times Manchester discusses. But to my understanding Manchester was writing about telephone calls based on the transcript we have now plus his personal interviews with the participants.

I'll be going to Manchester's book shortly but to save me time could you me a citation for the Johnson/Bundy lone assassin call you quoted...that would be a great help, thanks, Larry

I stand corrected. Manchester refers to a different Bundy quote -- "the Pentagon is taking their own steps."

In "The Tale Told by Two Tapes," Vincent Salandria relates how Theodore White read and reported on transcript that contained:

On the flight the party learned that there was no conspiracy, learned of the identity of Oswald and his arrest; and the President's mind turned to the duties of consoling the stricken and guiding the quick.

Salandria cites Jim Bishop as the source for Bundy being in charge of the Situation Room.

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=4269&relPageId=13

Edited by Cliff Varnell
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Thanks Cliff, just want through Manchester again and confirmed the same thing. He relates Johnson talking to Bundy (third in line after RFK, Jenkins and then Bundy) about the return to Washington and the oath - which was apparently the top thing on Johnson's mind. Later aides passed on radio messages about arrangements in DC, and logistics after the return. Looks like that one call was the only time they talked. Actually Tazwell Sheppard (sp) had set up the Sit Room at Bundy and JFK's request and was there initially on the 22, but he left it to go to the airport. Bundy was all over the place it appears, leaving the Sit Room somewhat on its own or at least at the disposal of various staff.

I'm going to put together a timeline of relevant AF 1 communications and start a new thread, including a cross reference to media announcements....this is educational and a good test of the accept dialog and memory of events that afternoon...

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Thanks Cliff, just want through Manchester again and confirmed the same thing. He relates Johnson talking to Bundy (third in line after RFK, Jenkins and then Bundy) about the return to Washington and the oath - which was apparently the top thing on Johnson's mind. Later aides passed on radio messages about arrangements in DC, and logistics after the return. Looks like that one call was the only time they talked. Actually Tazwell Sheppard (sp) had set up the Sit Room at Bundy and JFK's request and was there initially on the 22, but he left it to go to the airport. Bundy was all over the place it appears, leaving the Sit Room somewhat on its own or at least at the disposal of various staff.

I'm going to put together a timeline of relevant AF 1 communications and start a new thread, including a cross reference to media announcements....this is educational and a good test of the accept dialog and memory of events that afternoon...

From Vincent Salandria's 1998 COPA speech:

Theodore H. White, in his book The Making of the President, 1964, told us that on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, the Presidential party on Air Force One "...learned that there was no conspiracy, learned of the identity of Oswald and his arrest..."

Air Force One had landed at Andrews Air Force Base, at 5:59 P.M. on November 22, 1963. In correspondence with me, Mr. White stated that this message was sent to the Presidential party from the Situation Room of the White House. This same message was confirmed by Pierre Salinger in his book With Kennedy. Mr. Salinger received that same message while on the Cabinet Plane which was flying over the Pacific Ocean.

Bundy is alleged to have admitted to a journalist that he made the call...I think Robert Morrow was my source for that...

Edited by Cliff Varnell
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Well Manchester states that the only people on board AF1 that heard of the suspect's arrest and Oswald's identity were those watching TV and the transcript shows no sign of a Situation Room radio communication on the arrest of Oswald going to AF1.

The transcript does record a variety of updates on the shooting and the President's condition going from the Sit Room to the Cabinet plane - as requested. That plane was monitoring the wire services but asked for verbal updates.

Journalist White and Manning (who was on the Cabinet plane) state that the assassin was identified to people on AF One and the Cabinet plane by radio. Manning also noted that the "assassin" was reported to have been in the Soviet Union.

We do know the Cabinet plane was monitoring the wire services via radio - the transcript says so - and they would have heard the news about the arrest of the suspect, and later personal information broadcast about him.

As to "...learned that there was no conspiracy, learned of the identity of Oswald and his arrest..." I'd be happy with a bit more solid source for that - now of course it might have been edited off the tape...working on that angle now and will consult with Bill Kelly on it. But if nothing else, at present the quote would be from White not Bundy, whatever Bundy might specifically have said. Also, in checking on the news broadcasts, Oswald is referred to as a suspect and definitely not as the lone assassin - just as a suspect. So for now, back to look for the specific dialog between Bundy and Johnson, when Johnson called Bundy. Manchester describes it but I want to reread it on the transcript.

As an aside, Manchester describes the first person to bring up a possible conspiracy being Johnson himself, at Parkland. He told Kilduff to delay broadcasting the news of the President's death over his concern about a Communist conspiracy.

Working on it... Larry

Edited by Larry Hancock
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FBI FILES UPDATE:

This afternoon I mailed a DVD to Internet Archive containing scores of new FBI files and other material which they will soon upload into my Collection on their website.

A complete annotated alpha listing of all the subject matters is attached (the new files plus files I sent to them in June 2013).

I have also sent the Archive some rare items which are not generally available elsewhere. For example:

  • a copy of the unpublished manuscript of Robert Welch's "private letter", The Politician. This 1958 version is not available in any U.S. library. The subsequent published editions (in 1963 and 2002) excised Welch's libelous comments about President Eisenhower and about his appointments and associates.
  • Correspondence between William Grede and Robert D. Love and Charles Koch concerning why Love and Koch resigned from the John Birch Society and a subsequent letter from Welch to Koch, asking him to accept appointment to the JBS National Council.

The list also shows the FOIA requests which I still have pending at the FBI and at Secret Service and at Library of Congress.

NEW ALPHA FINDING AID - 11-17-14.pdf

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Thank you for this, Ernie; as some one who has filed FOIA requests in your country, and been down the same road here in my native Canada with the Library and Archives, Canada, Access to Information, Privacy and Document Delivery Services Division as well as the RCMP and CSIS, I find your listing most impressive, as is your current posted collection through Internet Archives. I look forward to reading through these latest additions.

Gary

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Was Hoover the source of McGeorge Bundy's information (In his call to LBJ about Oswald)?

I'm waiting to see Paul T's evidence of this.

What you originally asked for, Cliff, was a CITATION for my claim that the historian, Professor David Wrone, said that J. Edgar Hoover came up with the "Lone Shooter" theory of Lee Harvey Oswald within one hour after the arrest of Oswald (that is, before 4pm EST and before 3pm CST). So, here's my citation

Professor David R. Wrone (University of Wisconsin), author of The Assassination of John F. Kennedy (1980), said this about J. Edgar Hoover:

"Within an hour of the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, he had confirmed that it was a Lone Assassin, for purely personal reasons, that shot him. That was Hoover's instantaneous vision. He got that sitting at his desk on the banks of the Potomac -- instantaneous. Many FBI Agents -- even at the local level -- wanted to go with this Lone Assassin theory, which they called the 'Lone Nut' theory. They immediately would move that way." (Dr. David R. Wrone, 2006, interview in the DVD, The Murder of JFK: A Revisionist History).

Okay, Cliff, there's the citation. It's related to how quickly McGeorge Bundy called Air Force One and told LBJ that the "Lone Shooter" was in custody. My point was that McGeorge Bundy had to get this specific terminology from J. Edgar Hoover's pipeline.

Larry Hancock's answer is certainly adequate -- people at the hour of McGeorge Bundy's announcement were merely repeating what the News and Wire services were putting out. Now, how did the News and Wire services hear about this "Lone Shooter" theory of J. Edgar Hoover? That's too simple -- the News and Wire services would be first in line at the door of the FBI to beg for news.

The FBI was all too happy to share with them any gems from the pen of J. Edgar Hoover.

If (and only if) Professor Wrone's history is correct, then the answer to your question is crystal clear. McGeorge Bundy was merely parroting what he heard from the standard News and Wire services, who got their wording directly from the FBI.

So, it's not necessarily damning at all.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
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Correction - McGeorge Bundy.

Paul - watch the RFK vs LBJ video that Douglas Caddy posted. I think perhaps you will see Hoover differently.

Funny how MLK was hounded by Hoover and his FBI because he was of low moral character. Imagine that - Hoover taking the high ground.

Larry - what are you referring to when talking about Bundy being third in line behind RFK and Jenkins?

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