Jump to content
The Education Forum

Recommended Posts

After reading through most of this interesting file, I have a few questions. Am I correct that the name of the person who supplied this info to the secret service or fbi is withheld, and that this person is claiming that Dr. Drennan told him that plans would be discussed? So the source was not at the meeting, and the meeting had not yet been held?

Actually, Paul B, you're right about that, and so are Mark and Ernie.

It was overgeneralizing to suggest that Dr. Stanley Drennan was the SOURCE of this FBI report; rather, he was the SOURCE of the SOURCE. The horse's mouth, so to speak.

Also, Edwin Walker's name was *used* in the *context* to murder JFK as early as 17 April 1963. This is *not* to say (nor did I say) that Edwin Walker was *present* at that meeting. (Whether he attended or not was simply not stated in the report.)

We only know that Dr. Drennan was both a MEMBER of the John Birch Society (JBS) and a FOLLOWER of Edwin Walker, the former US General who was one of the earliest members of the JBS, joining back in 1959 (when he first unsuccessfully submitted his resignation to the US Army, citing a "Conspiracy" in the US Government).

I'm glad you found the post interesting, Paul B., because it offers some interesting EVIDENCE about the JBS interest in murdering JFK and RFK (and others) and about plotting to do so using a non-JBS patsy, as early as 17 April 1963.

It also drops the name of Edwin Walker in this context. It also occurs in the same general location in which Harry Dean claims his JBS meeting with Edwin Walker and Guy Gabaldon took place, with the same theme of the JFK murder, five months later.

As a native of the Los Angeles area, I can vouch for the abundance of right-wing newspapers on newsstands in the 1960's. These also included Anti-Semitic and even some Anti-Catholic rags -- blaming Communism on THEM. The paranoia regarding Communism was extremely high in Los Angeles during the Cold War. It was burning hot.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 1k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

After reading through most of this interesting file, I have a few questions. Am I correct that the name of the person who supplied this info to the secret service or fbi is withheld, and that this person is claiming that Dr. Drennan told him that plans would be discussed? So the source was not at the meeting, and the meeting had not yet been held?

Actually, Paul B, you're right about that, and so are Mark and Ernie.

It was overgeneralizing to suggest that Dr. Stanley Drennan was the SOURCE of this FBI report; rather, he was the SOURCE of the SOURCE. The horse's mouth, so to speak.

Also, Edwin Walker's name was *used* in the *context* to murder JFK as early as 17 April 1963. This is *not* to say (nor did I say) that Edwin Walker was *present* at that meeting. (Whether he attended or not was simply not stated in the report.)

We only know that Dr. Drennan was both a MEMBER of the John Birch Society (JBS) and a FOLLOWER of Edwin Walker, who was one of the earliest members of the JBS, joining back in 1959 (when he first unsuccessfully submitted his resignation to the US Army, citing a "Conspiracy" in the US Government).

I'm glad you found the post interesting, Paul B., because it offers some interesting EVIDENCE about the JBS interest in murdering JFK and RFK (and others) and about plotting to do so using non-JBS patsies, as early as 17 April 1963.

It also drops the name of Edwin Walker in this context. It also occurs in the same general location in which Harry Dean claims his JBS meeting took place, with the same theme of the JFK murder, five months later.

As a native of the Los Angeles area, I can vouch for the abundance of right-wing newspapers on newsstands in the 1960's. These also included Anti-Semitic and even some Anti-Catholic journals -- blaming Communism on THEM. The paranoia regarding Communism was extremely high in Los Angeles during the Cold War. It was burning hot.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Straw-man argument Paul. Nobody accused you of stating that Walker was "present" at any meeting involving Drennan. What you originally wrote is that:

Dr. Stanley Drennan of Los Angeles, who moved around in JBS circles, told the FBI on 18 April 1963 that he attended a private meeting of JBS members in Southern California, and also named Edwin Walker in the context of this meeting in which the assassination of JFK and RFK was discussed as a viable proposal.

Dr. Drennan did not "name Edwin Walker in the context of this meeting".

The FBI commented that Drennan was a known supporter of Walker----which isn't saying anything significant because almost every JBS member "supported" Walker during that time. But your original comment made it seem that when Drennan attended the meeting at Poor Richard's Book Store in Hollywood along with other JBS members---Drennan specifically mentioned Walker (at that time) in connection with the proposed assassination of JFK/RFK -- but that is NOT what the FBI documents reflect.

Postscript:

Incidentally, I have an FOIA request pending at Secret Service for their files on Drennan, NSRP, JBS, Walker, and any documents which discuss threats against JFK in the period from September 1963 through January 1964.

Edited by Ernie Lazar
Link to post
Share on other sites

Straw-man argument Paul. Nobody accused you of stating that Walker was "present" at any meeting involving Drennan. What you originally wrote is that:

Dr. Stanley Drennan of Los Angeles, who moved around in JBS circles, told the FBI on 18 April 1963 that he attended a private meeting of JBS members in Southern California, and also named Edwin Walker in the context of this meeting in which the assassination of JFK and RFK was discussed as a viable proposal.

Dr. Drennan did not "name Edwin Walker in the context of this meeting".

The FBI commented that Drennan was a known supporter of Walker----which isn't saying anything significant because almost every JBS member "supported" Walker during that time. But your original comment made it seem that when Drennan attended the meeting at Poor Richard's Book Store in Hollywood along with other JBS members---Drennan specifically mentioned Walker (at that time) in connection with the proposed assassination of JFK/RFK -- but that is NOT what the FBI documents reflect.

...Incidentally, I have an FOIA request pending at Secret Service for their files on Drennan, NSRP, JBS, Walker, and any documents which discuss threats against JFK in the period from September 1963 through January 1964.

Well, Ernie, I firmly disagree.

Dr. Stanley Drennan CLEARLY dropped the name of Edwin Walker within the specific CONTEXT of his meeting with the JBS on 17 April 1963 in which a plot to murder JFK and RFK was discussed.

It isn't as you wrote, Ernie, that "the FBI commented that Drennan was a known supporter of Walker."

Not at all.

That's not what the report said. The informer clearly told the FBI that Dr. Drennan HIMSELF identified HIMSELF as a follower of Edwin Walker, in the SAME PARAGRAPH as his boasting about that murderous JBS meeting.

The CONTEXT of Walker, JBS and the murder of JFK is crystal clear to the objective reader.

As for your pending FOIA request for Secret Service data on this question, I'm all ears.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

<edit typos>

Edited by Paul Trejo
Link to post
Share on other sites

Straw-man argument Paul. Nobody accused you of stating that Walker was "present" at any meeting involving Drennan. What you originally wrote is that:

Dr. Stanley Drennan of Los Angeles, who moved around in JBS circles, told the FBI on 18 April 1963 that he attended a private meeting of JBS members in Southern California, and also named Edwin Walker in the context of this meeting in which the assassination of JFK and RFK was discussed as a viable proposal.

Dr. Drennan did not "name Edwin Walker in the context of this meeting".

The FBI commented that Drennan was a known supporter of Walker----which isn't saying anything significant because almost every JBS member "supported" Walker during that time. But your original comment made it seem that when Drennan attended the meeting at Poor Richard's Book Store in Hollywood along with other JBS members---Drennan specifically mentioned Walker (at that time) in connection with the proposed assassination of JFK/RFK -- but that is NOT what the FBI documents reflect.

...Incidentally, I have an FOIA request pending at Secret Service for their files on Drennan, NSRP, JBS, Walker, and any documents which discuss threats against JFK in the period from September 1963 through January 1964.

Well, Ernie, I firmly disagree.

Dr. Stanley Drennan CLEARLY dropped the name of Edwin Walker within the specific CONTEXT of his meeting with the JBS on 17 April 1963 in which a plot to murder JFK and RFK was discussed.

It isn't as you wrote, Ernie, that "the FBI commented that Drennan was a known supporter of Walker."

Not at all.

That's not what the report said. The informer clearly told the FBI that Dr. Drennan HIMSELF identified HIMSELF as a follower of Edwin Walker, in the SAME SENTENCE as his boasting about that murderous JBS meeting.

The CONTEXT of Walker, JBS and the murder of JFK is crystal clear to the objective reader.

As for your pending FOIA request for Secret Service data on this question, I'm all ears.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Paul, instead of giving us your subjective interpretation, I suggest (as is my custom with you) that you QUOTE VERBATIM from the serial(s) which you think support your contention(s).

Again, you are wrongly describing what the FBI documents reveal.

Dr. Drennan did not contact the FBI nor was he interviewed by the FBI.

Instead, an FBI informant gave the FBI a description of his conversation with Drennan. According to the informant, on 4/17/63, Drennan stated that there would be a meeting of JBS members (at Poor Richard's Book Store) during which assassination of JFK/RFK and others would be discussed because (said Drennan to the informant) JFK's peaceful co-existence policies with communists and JFK's pro-United Nations orientation could no longer be tolerated.

The name of the person who might carry out this assassination plot "is unknown" -- according to the informant's report.

The above summary constitutes the first two paragraph of serial #1.

The next paragraph (as a separate thought) discusses background information about Dr. Drennan. This is standard procedure in FBI memos -- i.e. the first step is to summarize what an informant has reported and the second step is to summarize information about the key persons mentioned by an informant.

There is NO CONNECTION between the summary re: Drennan (paragraph 3) and what was reported by the informant at the beginning of the serial (paragraphs 1 and 2).

That third paragraph mentions that Drennan was thought to be a supporter of Edwin Walker as well as the "Cuban Raiders" and it also mentions that Drennan was involved in obtaining and delivering "material, drugs and clothing" to the "Cuban Raiders." Again -- this was just unverified background information about Drennan.

The "note" section on page 2 of serial #1 -- clearly states that the Los Angeles field office was instructed by HQ to pursue leads which arise from the informant's report. The leads were:

(1) develop more background info about Drennan and about Ranuzzi (owner of Poor Richards);

(2) determine their potential for carrying out or facilitating such an assassination plot;

(3) determine the identity of the person whom could be the assassin and

(4) coordinate with Secret Service.

Significantly, when Los Angeles field responded to the HQ instructions to develop background info about Drennan (and Ranuzzi), they did not even bother to mention anything re: Walker. The reason is self-evident. They found no relevant connection between Drennan and Walker. In short, the original comment in serial #1 which mentioned Walker was just a general background statement unconnected to what the informant reported regarding a proposed "murder plot".

You will notice that when the Secret Service completed their investigation into Drennan and FBI-Los Angeles summarized what the Secret Service concluded (serial #13, 7/24/63), there is no mention of Walker. In fact, the entire file has no references to Walker other than the unverified background information in serial #1.

Lastly, contrary to what you wrote, Drennan did not identify himself as a supporter of Walker.

Perhaps you did not actually carefully read this file. The statement in serial #1 is as follows (I use bold type for one key descriptor):

"Drennan allegedly has a hatred for the Administration; is a supporter of General Edwin A. Walker and the Cuban Raiders..."

Obviously, the FBI is summarizing the characterization of Drennan made by someone else -- which is why they use the word "allegedly".

This is another instance where we see how Paul T. "connects the dots" -- when the "dots" don't even exist OR when Paul conflates two entirely separate bits of information to conform to his subjective personal preferences!

Link to post
Share on other sites

In fairness to Trejo, who I agree overstates his proofs, the dots he tries to connect are at least suggestive. I look forward to whatever FBI files or secret service files you can dig up. Is the informant who reports this conversation to the FBI named anywhere? If not I hope some further digging reveals that tidbit.

Link to post
Share on other sites

...Paul, instead of giving us your subjective interpretation, I suggest (as is my custom with you) that you QUOTE VERBATIM from the serial(s) which you think support your contention(s).

You're overstating your case once again, Ernie. But at least you're willing to look at the actual FBI serial.

Let's look at it together, VERBATIM:

---------------------- BEGIN FIRST PAGE OF FBI TELTYPE DATED APRIL 18, 1963 ----------------------

URGENT: 4-18-63 4:12 PM GRJ

TO DIRECTOR

FROM SAC LOS ANGELES 182320

DR. STANLEY L. DRENNAN, IS-CUBA

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx, WHO HAS FURNISHED RELIABLE INFORMATION IN THE PAST TO LOS ANGELES, ADVISED THAT DR. STANLEY L. DRENNAN, MD WITH OFFICES AT 3550 WEST 8TH STREET, LOS ANGELES, ADVISED HIM APRIL 17 LAST THAT “THE ORGANIZATION” WAS GOING TO HAVE A DISCUSSION THAT WOULD TAKE PLACE AT “POOR RICHARDS BOOK SHOP” WHICH IS OWNED AND OPERATED BY F.X. RANUZZI.

DRENNAN STATED WOULD DISCUSS PLANS TO ASSASSINATE PRESIDENT KENNEDY, ATTORNEY GENERAL KENNEDY AND SOME UNIDENTIFIED MEMBERS OF CONGRESS. STATED WOULD HAVE INDIVIDUAL DO IT WHO WAS NOT MEMBER OF JOHN BIRCH SOCIETY AND THEREBY WOULD BE NO REFLECTION ON THE GROUP.

DRENNAN STATED THIS ACTION NECESSARY IN VIEW OF THE POPE’S POSITIONAND THE ADMINISTRATION’S POSITION AGAINST CONTINUING FIGHT AGAINST COMMUNISM IN FAVOR OF COEXISTENCE AND WORK THR0UGH UNITED NATIONS.

DRENNAN HAS HATRED FOR ADMINISTRATION, FORMER PRESIDENT EISENHOWER AND OTHER AMERICA LEADERS NOT IDENTIFIED. SUPPORTS GENERAL WALKER AND CURRENT CUBA RAIDERS. DRENNAN ENGAGED IN COLLECTING MATERIALS, DRUGS, CLOTHING TO BE SHIPPED TO CUBAN RAIDERS PLACE UNKNOWN.

SECRET SERVICE, LOS ANGELES ADVISED. LETTERHEAD MEMO FOLLOWS.

---------------------- END FIRST PAGE OF FBI TELTYPE DATED APRIL 18, 1963 ----------------------

OK, now let's examine this FBI teletype of 4/18/1963 very slowly.

First, it's marked Urgent. It's from the Special Agent in Charge (SAC) in Los Angeles, whose FBI number is #182320. It is written to the FBI Director, J. Edgar Hoover himself.

Secondly, the topic is Dr. Stanley Drennan, a medical doctor from Los Angeles, California. The classification of the topic is INTERNAL SECURITY (IS) regarding the current politics of Cuba.

The name of the Informant is removed -- we see only blanks (xxxxxxxxxxxxxx) and a note that this Informant is considered reliable. The Informant tells the FBI about Dr. Stanley Drennan, and gives his address, to make no mistake about this specific person:

Drennan (and nobody else) told the Informant just the day before (17 April 1963) that "The Organization" was going to meet for a discussion at "Poor Richard's Bookshop" owned by F.X. Ranuzzi.

Drennan (and nobody else) told the Informant that "The Organization" was going to discuss plans to murder JFK, RFK and some Congressmen.

Drennan (and nobody else) told the Informant that the assassin would be selected from outside of "The Organization" which is now named as "The John Birch Society." The purpose of this was to avoid any reflection on the John Birch Society, i.e. that these clean-cut professional businessmen would do anything so low as Presidential Assassination.

Drennan (and nobody else) told the Informant that this MURDER was deemed necessary by "The Organization," i.e. the John Birch Society, because of the Catholic Pope's position on Communism -- which correlated to JFK's position on Communism (evidently because JFK was a Catholic) namely, to seek Peaceful Co-existence and to work through the United Nations.

Drennan (and nobody else) told the Informant that he also hated former President Eisenhower. Now, this is a well-known position of the John Birch Society, to those who study the JBS carefully.

Drennan (and nobody else) told the Informant that he supports General Edwin Walker and the "Current Cuba Raiders." This should be researched more fully -- the term "Cuba Raiders" could be generic or specific. For example, Gerry Patrick Hemming, who had material ties with Ex-General Edwin Walker, called his Cuba raiding squad, "The Raiders", and sometimes, "Patrick's Raiders". In April of 1963, Loran Hall, Larry Howard and Billy Seymour were members of "The Raiders", and would conduct pinpoint attacks on Cuban soil.

Drennan (and nobody else) told the Informant that he engaged in collecting raiding materials, drugs and clothing, to be shipped to the Cuban Raiders. This should also be researched more fully -- Harry Dean says that he, along with Loran Hall and Larry Howard would collect raiding materials, drugs and other supplies from medical doctors in the Los Angeles area, and transport them across State lines to Texas, Louisiana and Florida. Harry says he did this on a fairly continual basis from late 1962 through late 1963, mainly from the garage of Guy Gabaldon of the Los Angeles area.

In any case, Ernie, that's the correct interpretation of the FBI teletype. It sometimes amazes me that you could just ignore the obvious.

Sincerely,

--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
Link to post
Share on other sites

In fairness to Trejo, who I agree overstates his proofs, the dots he tries to connect are at least suggestive. I look forward to whatever FBI files or secret service files you can dig up. Is the informant who reports this conversation to the FBI named anywhere? If not I hope some further digging reveals that tidbit.

1. The informant is identified as "Raheb" on one serial (obviously the FBI analyst mistakenly did not redact his/her name in that one instance because the informant name is redacted everywhere else)

2. Not sure what you mean by "suggestive" dots.

There was no implied or explicit connection to Walker (in the context of any murder plot). Drennan's "political orientation" was described by FBI-Los Angeles in a subsequent serial as "extreme right".

Probably the only reason Walker was even mentioned in serial #1 is because Walker had been prominently in the news for several months and his connection to the JBS was well known so mentioning Walker merely served to "suggest" the type of political sentiments which Drennan possessed.

If you believe in guilt-by-association -- one can always manufacture and connect all sorts of "dots" -- both real and imaginary or grossly exaggerated.

Link to post
Share on other sites

...Paul, instead of giving us your subjective interpretation, I suggest (as is my custom with you) that you QUOTE VERBATIM from the serial(s) which you think support your contention(s).

You're overstating your case once again, Ernie. But at least you're willing to look at the actual FBI serial.

Let's look at it together, VERBATIM:

---------------------- BEGIN FIRST PAGE OF FBI TELTYPE DATED APRIL 18, 1963 ----------------------

URGENT: 4-18-63 4:12 PM GRJ

TO DIRECTOR

FROM SAC LOS ANGELES 182320

DR. STANLEY L. DRENNAN, IS-CUBA

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx, WHO HAS FURNISHED RELIABLE INFORMATION IN THE PAST TO LOS ANGELES, ADVISED THAT DR. STANLEY L. DRENNAN, MD WITH OFFICES AT 3550 WEST 8TH STREET, LOS ANGELES, ADVISED HIM APRIL 17 LAST THAT “THE ORGANIZATION” WAS GOING TO HAVE A DISCUSSION THAT WOULD TAKE PLACE AT “POOR RICHARDS BOOK SHOP” WHICH IS OWNED AND OPERATED BY F.X. RANUZZI.

DRENNAN STATED WOULD DISCUSS PLANS TO ASSASSINATE PRESIDENT KENNEDY, ATTORNEY GENERAL KENNEDY AND SOME UNIDENTIFIED MEMBERS OF CONGRESS. STATED WOULD HAVE INDIVIDUAL DO IT WHO WAS NOT MEMBER OF JOHN BIRCH SOCIETY AND THEREBY WOULD BE NO REFLECTION ON THE GROUP.

DRENNAN STATED THIS ACTION NECESSARY IN VIEW OF THE POPE’S POSITIONAND THE ADMINISTRATION’S POSITION AGAINST CONTINUING FIGHT AGAINST COMMUNISM IN FAVOR OF COEXISTENCE AND WORK THR0UGH UNITED NATIONS.

DRENNAN HAS HATRED FOR ADMINISTRATION, FORMER PRESIDENT EISENHOWER AND OTHER AMERICA LEADERS NOT IDENTIFIED. SUPPORTS GENERAL WALKER AND CURRENT CUBA RAIDERS. DRENNAN ENGAGED IN COLLECTING MATERIALS, DRUGS, CLOTHING TO BE SHIPPED TO CUBAN RAIDERS PLACE UNKNOWN.

SECRET SERVICE, LOS ANGELES ADVISED. LETTERHEAD MEMO FOLLOWS.

---------------------- END FIRST PAGE OF FBI TELTYPE DATED APRIL 18, 1963 ----------------------

OK, now let's examine this FBI teletype of 4/18/1963 very slowly.

First, it's marked Urgent. It's from the Special Agent in Charge (SAC) in Los Angeles, whose FBI number is #182320. It is written to the FBI Director, J. Edgar Hoover himself.

So what? ALL SAC communications to HQ were always addressed to the Director. That was standard protocol --- regardless of whether or not the SAC was actually the author of the memo or teletype or airtel. For example: if you look at serial #6 (4/19/63), it also is addressed from SAC Los Angeles to the Director. However, if you look at the bottom, you will see the author and typist initials -- i.e. WJM/AY. This airtel was actually written by Special Agent William J. McCauley (WJM) and the reason becomes obvious when you look at the subject heading code [Dr. Stanley L. Drennan; IS-Cuba]. McCauley was the Special Agent who handled Cuban matters in southern California. You will recall that he wrote many of the memos appearing in Harry Dean's Los Angeles file and he is the Agent who asked if Harry was a "mental case".

The SAC-Los Angeles did not have an identification number assigned to him. The reference to #182320 refers to something else. Normally when a number appears after the SAC's name it reflects the field office file number (as can be seen on other serials in this file).

Secondly, the topic is Dr. Stanley Drennan, a medical doctor from Los Angeles, California. The classification of the topic is INTERNAL SECURITY (IS) regarding the current politics of Cuba.

No, Paul, not just "the politics of Cuba". IS-Cuba refers to any FBI file opened to capture information about any kind of Cuban-related matter i.e. not limited to politics. Also includes trade, cultural and scientific and commercial matters, students, immigration/emigration, visitors/tourists, refugees, military matters, diplomatic matters, anti-Castro persons, organizations, and activities, pro-Castro persons, organizations and activities. etc. In Drennan's case -- his connection to Cuba was his association with "Cuban Raiders".

The name of the Informant is removed -- we see only blanks (xxxxxxxxxxxxxx) and a note that this Informant is considered reliable. The Informant tells the FBI about Dr. Stanley Drennan, and gives his address, to make no mistake about this specific person:

Drennan (and nobody else) told the Informant just the day before (17 April 1963) that "The Organization" was going to meet for a discussion at "Poor Richard's Bookshop" owned by F.X. Ranuzzi.

Drennan (and nobody else) told the Informant that "The Organization" was going to discuss plans to murder JFK, RFK and some Congressmen.

Drennan (and nobody else) told the Informant that the assassin would be selected from outside of "The Organization" which is now named as "The John Birch Society." The purpose of this was to avoid any reflection on the John Birch Society, i.e. that these clean-cut professional businessmen would do anything so low as Presidential Assassination.

You may be reading too much into the term "The Organization". First of all, you will notice that in serial #6, the informant is identified as the person who makes the assumption that when Drennan uses the word "we" he supposedly was referring to the JBS as "The Organization". Drennan stated that "we are going to do something about it" -- referring to the JFK policies which upset Drennan and his allies.

It is more likely that when the term "The Organization" came up -- it was a generic reference to the amalgam of anti-JFK individuals and groups---particularly in southern California-- who were critics of JFK. For example: there are references in several serials to the "American Committee To Free Cuba, Inc." and to the "Cuban Raiders".

There is no reference in any Drennan serial to "clean-cut professional businessmen" who wanted to assassinate JFK without footprints leading to themselves. In any event, some of the most caustic critics of JFK were precisely the type of people who actually were "clean-cut professional businessmen." They were associated with the American Committee To Free Cuba and other JBS-friendly groups in southern California such as John R. Lechner's, "Americanism Educational League" or Maurice Brainard's "Constructive Action Inc." -- both of which were filled with high profile Birchers and businessmen.

Drennan (and nobody else) told the Informant that this MURDER was deemed necessary by "The Organization," i.e. the John Birch Society, because of the Catholic Pope's position on Communism -- which correlated to JFK's position on Communism (evidently because JFK was a Catholic) namely, to seek Peaceful Co-existence and to work through the United Nations.

This comment is preposterous on its face. The majority of JBS employees at JBS HQ in Belmont, MA were conservative practicing Catholics. Cardinal Cushing of Boston was a very close friend of the Kennedy family and, at one point, Cushing endorsed Robert Welch and the JBS.

In its entire history, the JBS, as an organization, never advocated or condoned violence nor did they even agree with the philosophical concept of "civil disobedience" as practiced by MLK Jr and others and they also condemned paramilitary right-wing groups like The Minutemen.

And if you obtain the FBI files on the key figures of the JBS (including their entire National Council) -- NONE of them ever had any sort of criminal record and most of them were very prominent in their local communities and highly respected for their civic contributions -- including philanthropy. It is malicious and libelous to invent a persona for the JBS that contradicts everything known about both it and its major leaders.

Drennan (and nobody else) told the Informant that he also hated former President Eisenhower. Now, this is a well-known position of the John Birch Society, to those who study the JBS carefully.

The JBS, as an organization, did not express "hatred" of Eisenhower in its earliest years -- but Robert Welch did so in private correspondence starting in 1954 (befpre the JBS was even founded).

As previously noted, many very prominent JBS members (including National Council members) worked to elect and re-elect Eisenhower and even served in his Administration. Insofar as research has been done about this matter, it is probably true that many JBS members were disappointed with Eisenhower because they thought he would dismantle FDR's New Deal but they did not hate the guy. This is somewhat comparable to contemporary Tea Party types who do not want the GOP to nominate another "moderate" (like Romney) for President. They don't "hate" Romney -- they just don't think Romney is "severely conservative" enough to implement what the Tea Party wants to achieve.

Drennan (and nobody else) told the Informant that he supports General Edwin Walker and the "Current Cuba Raiders." This should be researched more fully -- the term "Cuba Raiders" could be generic or specific. For example, Gerry Patrick Hemming, who had material ties with Ex-General Edwin Walker, called his Cuba raiding squad, "The Raiders", and sometimes, "Patrick's Raiders". In April of 1963, Loran Hall, Larry Howard and Billy Seymour were members of "The Raiders", and would conduct pinpoint attacks on Cuban soil.

There is nothing in any serial to confirm that Drennan told the informant anything about Walker. That is merely your ASSUMPTION. The Cuban Raiders is simply a generic reference to all the anti-Castro groups operating around the country -- including southern California. To get a sense of anti-Castro activity, see the Los Angeles FBI "Anti-Castro Activities" file sections which I recently had posted online here:

http://www.buildingdemocracy.us/archive/dox/lazar/fbi/508-GENERAL%20A-Z/ [scroll down to "Anti-Castro"; it may take a while for all the pages to load]

Drennan (and nobody else) told the Informant that he engaged in collecting raiding materials, drugs and clothing, to be shipped to the Cuban Raiders. This should also be researched more fully -- Harry Dean says that he, along with Loran Hall and Larry Howard would collect raiding materials, drugs and other supplies from medical doctors in the Los Angeles area, and transport them across State lines to Texas, Louisiana and Florida. Harry says he did this on a fairly continual basis from late 1962 through late 1963, mainly from the garage of Guy Gabaldon of the Los Angeles area.

In any case, Ernie, that's the correct interpretation of the FBI teletype. It sometimes amazes me that you could just ignore the obvious.

What is "obvious" to you escapes most other people here --- as has been noted by many individuals in this and other threads.

You routinely use lowest-common-denominator reasoning which allows you to assert as obvious "fact" or "reality" -- various statements and conclusions which are. at best, your hypothesis about some matter but which simply are not supported by available evidence OR you make statements for which evidence is ambiguous or subject to different interpretation.

Sincerely,

--Paul Trejo

My comments appear underneath yours

Link to post
Share on other sites

BTW -- as a postscript to my reply Paul Trejo's message:

1. Paul uses the mantra "Drennan and nobody else" to introduce every one of his comments. Apparently, Paul thinks repeating that phrase adds certainty or probative quality to his conclusions.

2. However, we know that several agencies created files regarding Drennan and we also know that the FBI also created other main files about Drennan (such as Atlanta 157-672) and other FBI files which contain serials that discuss Drennan (such as Atlanta 105-3193). Consequently, there may be additional information from other sources which contradict Paul's assumption.

3. We also know that while the FBI did not initially find any connection between Drennan and the NSRP, nevertheless, Drennan was a member of NSRP and we have the report made by Lt. Col. Robert K. Brown about his conversation with Drennan - when "The Organization" which supposedly was Drennan's choice for accomplishing the murder of JFK et al suddenly changed to the NSRP. Brown got the impression that Drennan was offering him the job!

4. The NSRP is a MUCH more plausible group for any sort of murder plot because (unlike the JBS) so many of its members were vicious fanatics who actually DID have criminal backgrounds as well as military training. And (also unlike the JBS) many NSRP members were suspected of, or indicted for, heinous crimes. [For example: Byron de la Beckwith was indicted and tried for the murder of Medger Evers and George Michael Bright was indicted and tried for the October 1958 bombing of the Atlanta GA Jewish synagogue. A total of five NSRP members were suspects in that bombing!]

5. Many NSRP members were neo-nazis who believed in "direct action" (what in some circles today is referred to as "second amendment remedies"). For example: Matt Koehl--(the future leader of the American Nazi Party) joined NSRP in 1963 and Emory Carney Burke, a co-founder of The Columbians --a group which was listed on the Attorney General's List of Subversive (fascist) organizations] and the "Legal Counsel" of NSRP (J.B. Stoner) who was indicted for the June 1958 bombing of a Birmingham AL church. Stoner was a life-long bigot. In the 1940's Stoner founded the Stoner Anti-Jewish Party which later was re-named the Christian Anti-Jewish Party and when he was interviewed by an Atlanta Constitution newspaper reporter, Stoner declared that Hitler had been "too moderate".

POSTSCRIPT:

Loran Hall told Jim Garrison about speeches which Loran made in early 1963 to solicit support for anti-Castro guerrilla activities. Present at one of his speeches (Hall said) was Edgar Eugene Bradley and Dr. Stanley Drennan. Hall stated that before and after these speeches, he frequently overheard "some people discussing the possibility of assassinating Kennedy and how it might be done."

One speech recalled by Hall was in September 1963 at 233 S, Lafayette Park Place in Los Angeles -- a home which was owned by G. Clinton Wheat. Wheat was an ex-convict who served time in a Louisiana prison for murder. Wheat headed the California chapter of "The Committee of One Million Caucasians To March on Washington in 1964" which was formed in February 1962 by James R. Venable and Herbert Butterworth. Venable was the leader of the National Knights of the KKK in Georgia. Also present at this meeting was William Potter Gale.

In addition, in May 1968, Hall stated that he knew about a tape recording of a 11/9/63 meeting in Miami Florida which he characterized as a meeting of "states righters". According to Hall, "one man's voice [on the recording] said the group had a man selected to kill Kennedy and another to be the patsy." Furthermore, the voice on the recording stated that the same assassin was "gunning for Martin Luther King Jr."

NOTE: At this point, we should introduce a West Palm Beach, Florida group headed by Mary M. Davison -- i.e. The Council For Statehood, sometimes known as Freemen. This group attracted support from some very unsavory characters including NSRP members.

Davison is perhaps best known for her 1962 book, The Secret Government of the United States. Council For Statehood members were thought by the FBI to be prime candidates for carrying out assassinations of prominent Americans after a Miami police informant told Miami PD that such assassinations were discussed at the April 4-6, 1963 Annual Convention of the Congress of Freedom held in New Orleans. [see FBI HQ 157-758, #20; SAC Miami to J. Edgar Hoover.]

According to one FBI file, Mary Davison was known to "work closely" with the American Nazi Party and she was "a top leader in segregationist groups" -- including Citizens Councils in her area and the NSRP. [HQ 157-1232, #1; 12/11/63 summary report by Miami field]

So, as can be seen from all this --- it certainly would be possible to conclude that "The Organization" previously referenced was not necessarily meant to be a specific and exclusive reference to the Birch Society. Instead, Drennan was involved with many persons and organizations that "allegedly" were interested in assassinating JFK and others.

For additional information see:

Los Angeles Times article by Jerry Cohen: "2 Californians Subpoenaed In Kennedy Probe"; 5/15/68, page I-3 -- which may be found in the FBI's JFK Assassination File (HQ 62-109060) as well as in FBI-Los Angeles file 89-75 (Threats Against Federal Officials).

UPI wire service report dated 5/2/68 and Los Angeles Times, 5/3/68, page I-3

Edited by Ernie Lazar
Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok - it's a last name, and just an oversight we got that much. We don't know who the informant is or have any way to judge his honesty, history as an informant - nothing to go on. But it is clear that his identity is still being protected.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok - it's a last name, and just an oversight we got that much. We don't know who the informant is or have any way to judge his honesty, history as an informant - nothing to go on. But it is clear that his identity is still being protected.

All we know is that the FBI characterized him/her as having been a "reliable" informant. What that normally means in Bureau-Speak is that when the FBI compares information provided by one informant to info provided by other informants or to info obtained through FBI investigations, that informant's info has been found to be mostly accurate and truthful.

Link to post
Share on other sites

BTW -- as a postscript to my reply Paul Trejo's message:

POSTSCRIPT:

Loran Hall told Jim Garrison about speeches which Loran made in early 1963 to solicit support for anti-Castro guerrilla activities. Present at one of his speeches (Hall said) was Edgar Eugene Bradley and Dr. Stanley Drennan. Hall stated that before and after these speeches, he frequently overheard "some people discussing the possibility of assassinating Kennedy and how it might be done."

One speech recalled by Hall was in September 1963 at 233 S, Lafayette Park Place in Los Angeles -- a home which was owned by G. Clinton Wheat. Wheat was an ex-convict who served time in a Louisiana prison for murder. Wheat headed the California chapter of "The Committee of One Million Caucasians To March on Washington in 1964" which was formed in February 1962 by James R. Venable and Herbert Butterworth. Venable was the leader of the National Knights of the KKK in Georgia. Also present at this meeting was William Potter Gale.

In addition, in May 1968, Hall stated that he knew about a tape recording of a 11/9/63 meeting in Miami Florida which he characterized as a meeting of "states righters". According to Hall, "one man's voice [on the recording] said the group had a man selected to kill Kennedy and another to be the patsy." Furthermore, the voice on the recording stated that the same assassin was "gunning for Martin Luther King Jr."

...

Well, Ernie, this information about Loran Hall directly connects Stanley Drennan with Loran Hall, who was once one of Gerry Patrick Hemming's "Cuba Raiders." Both were connected to Edwin Walker.

It also names Edgar Eugene Bradley in connection with Loran Hall. Jim Garrison was very interested in Edgar Eugene Bradley, and sought extradition of him from California, which was opposed by then Californa Govenor Ronald Reagan.

Harry Dean told me about one living person who could corroborate his story -- David Robbins. I did contact Robbins, who did confirm various parts of Harry's story -- but flatly stopped short of any talk about murder.

Anyway, David Robbins told me that he was a close, personal friend of Edgar Eugene Bradley -- in fact, they went to the same Church together. He and his wife would visit at Bradley's home in Southern California.

David Robbins also knew of Loran Hall and his speeches -- so at one of Loran Hall's speeches to the John Birch Society (JBS) in Southern California in 1962-1963 one might find Dr. Stanley Drennan, Edgar Eugene Bradley, John Rousselot and Harry Dean in attendance. On a special day, Ex-General Edwin Walker might be there.

Harry Dean, at one of these speeches by Larry Hall, decided to purchase the 12" LP record that Loran Hall was selling at these fund-raisers for his "Cuba Raider" team. Harry shared that record with me, and I had both sides digitized to share them freely on YouTube. Now you can hear what the JBS heard during those fund-raisers. Here are the URL locations:

[]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6daWtQYlydQ]

[]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kLVVHQ_Myg]

By the middle of 1963, Loran Hall had stopped working for Gerry Patrick Hemming, and started his own "Cuba Raider" squad called, "La Sambra," or "The Shadow." Loran Hall had a flair for melodrama.

Harry also said that he would regularly help Loran Hall and Larry Howard load up their trailer of supplies for the Cuba Raids -- supplies of weapons and drugs -- obtained from medical doctors, lawyers and dentists belonging to the JBS in Southern California.

Harry also acknowledged talk about killing JFK from within radical circles of the JBS, and even more frequently within their sister organization, the Minutemen, which was heavily armed, and conducted paramilitary training exercises in the East Los Angeles desert.

Harry was the only one I knew about who said that Edwin Walker was directly connected to a JBS plot to kill JFK -- until this month -- when we learned that Dr. Stanley Drennan also dropped the name of Edwin Walker in the context of Drennan's boasting about a JBS plot to kill JFK.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
Link to post
Share on other sites

QUESTIONS FOR PAUL TREJO:

1. Did you find any correspondence from Drennan to Walker in Walker's personal papers?

2. Did you find any correspondence from Walker to Drennan?

3. Did you find any correspondence from Walker to other persons which mentioned Drennan?

4. If your answers to all these questions is "no" -- then what does that suggest to you (in the context of your interest in Walker and his supposed connections to a "JBS plot")?

5. If Walker's personal papers do NOT reflect that he ever was in contact with (or that he never mentioned knowing about) people like Harry Dean, Stanley Drennan, Guy Galbadon, G. Clinton Wheat, F.X. Ranuzzi, etc. -- then what does that suggest to you?

6. In fact, is there anything in Walker's papers to reflect that he was in regular contact (at any time from 1959 thru 1964) with John Rousselot or Loran Hall or Stanley Drennan, or Galbadon, or Harry Dean, or Ranuzzi or anybody else supposedly involved in any "JBS plot"?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...