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Then went outside to watch the P. parade


Guest Bart Kamp

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57 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

So, on 11/23/63 (via the New York newspaper), Ochus Campbell supposedly says he positively saw Lee Harvey Oswald on the first floor of the Depository within a short time of the assassination. But then, the very next day (11/24/63), he is interviewed by two FBI agents and says he "has never seen" Lee Oswald before.

Somebody get me the Bufferin! I feel a headache coming on!

 

No need for  a Bufferin David. The explanation is simple.... the WC could not have Oswald on the first floor near the front door immediately after the shooting, and so they covered it up. It's as simple as that.

But thanks for posting the newspaper article image. In my notes I had an entry marked UNVERIFIED of Ochus Campbell saying he saw Oswald there. Now it's verified! (I mean, it's verified that this was reported in the New York Herald Tribune).

Here's another related entry in my notes that I need to verify and get details on if I can. These are my words:

Ken Biffle, Dallas morning News reporter overheard Truly telling Fritz that he saw Oswald near the storage room on the first floor. (There is a small storage room alongside the main entrance of the TSBD.)

 

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7 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

FC, first of all you seem not to know the difference between what Cinque was about and what Bart is about.  They are two different concepts.

Secondly, you did admit that a better image would provide better evidence.

That would apply only to the PM issue not Doorway man.

Therefore, it is possible to prove PM is Oswald is ever there was discovered a first generation print.

So one cannot exclude the alternative that PM is Oswald. And we now have 2-3 sources that indicate Oswald said he was outside.

Mister DiEugenio,
Again, let me tell you :

I know the difference between what Ralph Cinque has been claiming in his web sites and on several forums over the years, and what Bart Kamps is claiming today here or on his web site.
It is easy to know. You just have to sit down and read Internet pages. When I was young, you had to order books and read them. It took time and efforts. Today, anyone can easily visit web sites. So, trust me, I know the difference between Cinque's claims and Kamp's claims.

As far as images are concerned, well, I of course agree with the general principal that a better-quality image will give you better information than a lower-quality image. I would be more than happy if someone could provide all of us with a clear image of the so-called "prayer man". I would be delighted if some Dallas citizen could find such a clear image in their grand-parents' belongings, or something of the kind. Maybe a personal family movie forgotten in an old movie camera of a private citizen who was there that day and shot a movie and let it lie somewhere in his basement ? I mean, we all would love that to happen, of course, since it would most probably give us clear answers.
I would love to have a clear picture, or clear pictures, but I think that me must NOT rely on Photoshop to give us a "clear" picture from a blurry, fuzzy picture. It can only mislead us.

As far as "Prayer man" is concerned, well, I can safely say this : he is NOT Oswald. Try as you might, you can never prove that this shadow/guy is Lee Oswald. Why ? Because Lee Oswald was inside the building, not there on the steps. And here, see, I am applying critical thinking skills. It's easy, by the way. If someone is somewhere, they are not elsewhere. So, as Oswald was inside, he was not outside. Period. Nobody can ever show something that did not happen, therefore nobody can ever show that Oswald was outside when he was not.

David Von Pein's five points are valid. He is right. And frankly, how can you really even think of denying his arguments ? All you can do is resort to : "This guy lied, that guy lied, that other guy lied, etc.". That's easy. Cheap shot tactics. But it is not honest and you must realize, deep down yourself, that it is not right to accuse everybody of lying. Those were men like you and me.

There is one important thing that everybody is overlooking. You are all saying that "Prayer man" was Oswald, therefore Oswald had an ironclad alibi, therefore he was not JFK's assassin. But wait a minute ! For 55 years, you have all been telling us that Oswald was the patsy, the scapegoat, the victim of a frame-up. He was framed ! But hold on a second, if he was "prayer man", then he wasn't framed. I mean, you can't imagine for a second a conspiracy so ridiculous that they plan to frame someone but don't care where that man is at the time of the shooting and don't know whether he has an alibi or not ????? At the very least, if you want to frame someone, you make sure that he has no alibi and you make damn sure he is not in the open among his colleagues !!!!! In other words, you conspiracy advocates have to explain to us how in the world the conspirators agreed to have Oswald moving freely on the steps of the TSBD. It doesn't make sense.

I know, if I dare say that, Bart Kamp will ask members to ignore me (ultimate irony…).

Apart from that, be honest, why in the world did NOT ONE of his colleagues say that they saw Oswald with them, watching the presidential parade ? Why didn't Buell Frazier say that Oswald was with him ? Come on, that is important, isn't it ? And Don't tell me that they were all focused on the motorcade and didn't see who was next to them. That's nonsense. If these events, you talk to people, if only to share your feelings and emotions, especially if shots are fired at the President of the United States. I remember the 1999 solar eclipse. I was in Paris, at work. We went outside, watching the eclipse, with our special glasses. I can swear to you that to this day I remember who I was with. We stopped working and went outside a few minutes before the eclipse started and talked in the previous minutes and the following moments to. We were excited. A presidential motorcade would be as exciting. Now, I can assure you that if that afternoon someone had accused my colleagues of having killed someone, or stollen something, or whatever, I would have said : "That's impossible, I was with them". No way I wouldn't have realized the impossibility of the accusation. Likewise, don't tell me that Oswald could have been outside watching the parade and NOBODY ever saw him ??????????? That's just ludicrous.

There is one thing that you all overlook, too. Oswald himself NEVER said that he was watching the motorcade. Not to the press, not to his brother. Why ? I mean, you are all saying something about Oswald that even HE didn't say !

Now, again, as I have previously written, I agree to say that Oswald went outside at some point. YES, he went out. So if he said so to the investigators, well, I believe it. But the question is "when ?". When did he go outside ? The answer is : after the shots had been fired. (and here I am not talking about him being the shooter or not). Lee Oswald went outside after the shooting sequence. That much we know. It's a fact. Therefore, if your "prayer man" shadow was spotted there at the time of the shooting or in the immediately-following seconds, it cannot be Oswald. Oswald did go out, but a little later.

Have a nice day !

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45 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

so they covered it up. It's as simple as that.

Yes indeed, it's very simple. Everytime you see evidence that you don't like, just accuse the government of cover-up. It always works.
Very simple, indeed.
(that's probably why you constantly resort to such tactics…)

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2 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

.

It's an article that appeared in the New York Herald Tribune on November 23, 1963, and it does, indeed, say that Campbell said he saw Oswald "in a small storage room on the ground floor" of the TSBD just after the assassination:

 

I believe this is the Storage room in question;

file.php?id=299255

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4 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Nice one Ron.  

BTW, I should ask, when did Malcolm Blunt fish this out?  And where did it come from, what collection?

For people who do  not know, Blunt lives in England but he comes over here every once in awhile to go to the Archives.  He is simply amazing.

I found it among his Hosty files, which are from NARA. The second I found it I posted it.

Edited by Bart Kamp
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A few more thoughts regarding the "Storage Room" discussion....

In the Warren Commission's scenario of Lee Oswald's movements on 11/22/63 (and I agree with it), Oswald would have been very near that storage room area as he came down that staircase from the second floor to the first floor. And he would have been there about 3 minutes after the shooting. So even if someone did see Oswald in that general location (or even IN the storage room itself, although I can't imagine WHY Oswald would want to go into that room at that moment in time when he was likely wanting to exit the building as quickly as he could), such a first-floor sighting just AFTER the assassination doesn't really conflict with the overall "Lone Assassin" scenario....because Oswald (per that "LN" scenario) DID use that staircase next to the storage room prior to LHO exiting the building via (probably) the front entrance at approx. 12:33 PM.

Now, via the corroborative testimony of both Roy Truly and Marrion Baker, we know for a fact that the Oswald/Baker/Truly encounter did not (and could not) have occurred in or near the "storage room" on the first floor (despite the article in the 11/23/63 DMN which claims it did occur there) ---- but as far as one or more potential witnesses possibly catching a glimpse of Oswald in or near that storage room after the assassination, that is something that's certainly not an impossibility at all.

But --- I am very skeptical about accepting the Ochus Campbell "first-floor sighting" (for the reasons previously stated).

 

Edited by David Von Pein
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Also consider this....

To those people who believe that the "encounter" between Oswald and Officer Baker did occur in the "storage room" on the first floor....ask yourself this question:

Why would Officer Marrion Baker, who was attempting to catch a Presidential assassin who was (according to Baker's initial impression) located on the roof of the Book Depository Building, have had any desire whatsoever to make two right turns immediately after rushing into the building in order to stop someone who might have been located in that storage room, which is a room that is right next to the entrance to the building?! That would have been a crazy time-consuming thing to do at that particular time, if you ask me.

Baker couldn't possibly have had it in his mind to search an area that was RIGHT NEXT TO THE FRONT DOOR HE HAD JUST ENTERED! Especially since we know he was rushing toward the TOP floors of the building in order to get to the roof as soon as possible. Baker couldn't possibly have thought any assassin would have been located on the first floor, right next to the front door, at that moment in time (which was---what?---20 or 30 seconds after the last shot had been fired at President Kennedy?).

The things I just pointed out about Marrion L. Baker's probable mindset when he entered the Texas School Book Depository Building on November 22, 1963, in my opinion provide some additional circumstantial evidence (via just ordinary common sense, if nothing else) that leads to the inevitable conclusion that the "Baker/Truly/Oswald encounter" most certainly did not occur near the building's front entrance.

Edited by David Von Pein
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Oh please Davey. 

Will you get off it.  Every single possible excuse that David Belin could dream up, you lay down here.

Oh my aching back.  

Look, if this is legit, and it looks like it is, then its the closest thing we have to an audiotape of Oswald in detention.  As Vanessa said, the DPD never asked Oswald to write a declaration, for whatever reason.  So this is as close as we get to it.  And, by the way, we can all see why that was today. Fritz was such a slimeball.

I also believe that this interview took place before Oswald knew he was charged with JFK's murder. Which is important if its accurate.

With it we now have about 2-4 sources that say LHO was either outside or on the first floor at the time of the shooting.  But this one is the best  yet.  Thanks to Malcolm and Bart.

If you combine this with the work Barry Ernest did, plus the fact that Baker never mentioned  the second floor encounter in his original affidavit, then I think that is pretty probative. 

But man, what does this all say about the fact finding mechanism of the WC?  It was worse than bad.  They really were accessories after the fact.

 

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Tina Towner panned right past the front door of the TSBD in her home movie film. I'm just wondering how much "enhancing" and/or tweaking of the Towner Film has been done by the "Prayer Man" fraternity in order to find PM in that film? (Since I don't visit the PM site often, I'm not up to speed on any Towner Film restoration, etc.)

https://drive.google.com / Video File / The Towner Film

 

Edited by David Von Pein
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3 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

plus the fact that Baker never mentioned the second floor encounter in his original affidavit...

Baker mentioned it. He just got the floor number wrong. And it couldn't be more obvious that even Baker didn't know what floor he stopped LHO on, because he gave TWO possible floor numbers (3rd or 4th), both of which were wrong, of course....but the point is: He was unsure from Day 1 what floor it was.

Also....

Are you, Jim, saying that my last post (re: Baker's mindset as he ran into the building) is not a fairly reasonable assessment? If so, please state why it's not reasonable?

 

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And with that, I will now take the McBride, Bart Kamp pledge.

No honest person can read that affidavit and then say it was the same as the second floor encounter except he got the floor wrong.

That is a clear and deliberate misrepresentation of the evidence.

Bye Bye Davey.  You and FC really do belong at Duncan's. 

I should also add. Its about 3:30 in the morning back in Indy.  He really does not have a life.

Edited by James DiEugenio
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16 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

No honest person can read that affidavit and then say it was the same as the second floor encounter except he got the floor wrong. 

That is a clear and deliberate misrepresentation of the evidence.

Bull Feces.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-4oxRP0t5ZBM/Tvw52B7FIGI/AAAAAAAABwU/QbBHYHhIM4Q/s1200-h/Marrion-Baker-Affidavit.gif

Bye Bye, Jimmy.

(And it's not 3:30 AM. It's 4:30. Well, it's now 4:57.) :)

Edited by David Von Pein
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22 hours ago, Ray Mitcham said:

Ochus Campbell said he saw Oswald in the locker room just inside the vestibule door, just after the shooting. How could he, if Oswald was upstairs?

Whats interesting about this, is that in the wee hours of Saturday, 23rd Nov, the presses were printing the Campbell story. The story, that was related to a reporter, contains the phrase "a small storage room on the ground floor". This description could only have come from TSBD employee familiar with that small storage room on the ground floor or an officer that searched that same room. So, an employee/officer, whether it was the person connected with the story, Campbell or not, related the story on Friday afternoon/evening to a reporter.

I assume Vice President Ochus V. Campbell was not invited to the WC

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1 minute ago, Tony Krome said:

Whats interesting about this, is that in the wee hours of Saturday, 23rd Nov, the presses were printing the Campbell story. The story, that was related to a reporter, contains the phrase "a small storage room on the ground floor". This description could only have come from TSBD employee familiar with that small storage room on the ground floor or an officer that searched that same room. So, an employee/officer, whether it was the person connected with the story, Campbell or not, related the story on Friday afternoon/evening to a reporter.

I assume Vice President Ochus V. Campbell was not invited to the WC

And then, one day later....

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10406#relPageId=65

Tony,

Do you think the last paragraph of that FBI report is something that Special Agents Hardin and Scott just made up?

Should I add "Hardin & Scott" to the CTers' L-i-a-r-s List?

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