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Then went outside to watch the P. parade


Guest Bart Kamp

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3 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

And then, one day later....

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10406#relPageId=65

Tony,

Do you think the last paragraph of that FBI report is something that Special Agents Hardin and Scott just made up?

Should I add "Hardin & Scott" to the CTers' L-i-a-r-s List?

The day after the story appeared in the papers, the FBI jumped on Campbell for a statement.

An obvious question that should have been put to Campbell by inquisitive investigators, is along the lines of "is there any truth to this story?" while waving a newspaper in front of him.

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Tony,

As I mentioned earlier, that New York Herald Tribune story on 11/23 contains several errors re: things that were most definitely straightened out by the end of the day on Nov. 22 (esp. re: the Tippit murder).

I don't know if the NYHT was a morning or afternoon paper. Do you know? And what was that paper's reputation for accuracy (if you know)?

Edited by David Von Pein
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47 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

I will now take the McBride, Bart Kamp pledge.

You and FC really do belong at Duncan's. 

Oh, really ?
Is that the answer I get for my long post ?
OK.
But for those who have the honesty and the courage to try to answer, here is an excerpt from my previous post :

There is one important thing that everybody is overlooking. You are all saying that "Prayer man" was Oswald, therefore Oswald had an ironclad alibi, therefore he was not JFK's assassin. But wait a minute ! For 55 years, you have all been telling us that Oswald was the patsy, the scapegoat, the victim of a frame-up. He was framed ! But hold on a second, if he was "prayer man", then he wasn't framed. I mean, you can't imagine for a second a conspiracy so ridiculous that they plan to frame someone but don't care where that man is at the time of the shooting and don't know whether he has an alibi or not ????? At the very least, if you want to frame someone, you make sure that he has no alibi and you make damn sure he is not in the open among his colleagues !!!!! In other words, you conspiracy advocates have to explain to us how in the world the conspirators agreed to have Oswald moving freely on the steps of the TSBD. It doesn't make sense.

Apart from that, be honest, why in the world did NOT ONE of his colleagues say that they saw Oswald with them, watching the presidential parade ? Why didn't Buell Frazier say that Oswald was with him ? Come on, that is important, isn't it ? And Don't tell me that they were all focused on the motorcade and didn't see who was next to them. That's nonsense. If these events, you talk to people, if only to share your feelings and emotions, especially if shots are fired at the President of the United States. I remember the 1999 solar eclipse. I was in Paris, at work. We went outside, watching the eclipse, with our special glasses. I can swear to you that to this day I remember who I was with. We stopped working and went outside a few minutes before the eclipse started and talked in the previous minutes and the following moments to. We were excited. A presidential motorcade would be as exciting. Now, I can assure you that if that afternoon someone had accused my colleagues of having killed someone, or stollen something, or whatever, I would have said : "That's impossible, I was with them". No way I wouldn't have realized the impossibility of the accusation. Likewise, don't tell me that Oswald could have been outside watching the parade and NOBODY ever saw him ??????????? That's just ludicrous.

There is one thing that you all overlook, too. Oswald himself NEVER said that he was watching the motorcade. Not to the press, not to his brother. Why ? I mean, you are all saying something about Oswald that even HE didn't say !

Can a "conspiracy-prayer-man-believer" answer that ?

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Dave,

The Dallas Morning News ran the "storage room" story that mentions an officer, gun drawn on Oswald. I'm not sure if the NYHT, which was a morning paper, published subsequent editions that Saturday, but certainly they had Campbell present near the storage room as they quoted him as "we saw him in a small storage room on the ground floor". But if you had read my original post, the point is somebody related that story to a reporter, and they had to be familiar with that room.

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From Gary Savage's book, “First day evidence”

"OFFICER E"

It had been a long escort. We had  lot of people all the way. There were no problems, just a heavy crowd and a lot of yelling and cheering, and the motors were getting hot.When you follow the lead, you do a lot of starting and stopping, trying to hold an interval. I was glad it was almost over.

The crowd was real heavy, down on the end of the downtown area, but just past Dealey Plaza, it would open up and we would be on the freeway and just a few minutes from the Trade Mart. The front of the motorcade started blocking up in the crowd in those last turns coming off Main and turning onto Elm. Back on Houston where we were, we were just about stopped and moving real slow when we could move.

A little past halfway down Houston (between Main and Elm) I heard the first shot. I could tell it came from somewhere in front of me and high. As I looked up I noticed all the pigeons flushed off the top of the building on the corner ahead of me. And in the same period I heard the second shot, and then the third one. I couldn’t see just where the shots came from but I knew they were from a high powered rifle. I hunt a lot, and had just got back from hunting. There was no mistaking that there were three shots, that’s for sure. Though I didn't see exactly where the shots came from. I knew in my own mind they probably came from the corner building as the sound was right and because of the pigeons. So i headed there, got off my motor and entered the building (the Texas School Depository) It tooma  while because of the crowd; they had started moving in every direction.

The man who said he was the building superintendent was outside and met me at the door and went in with me. Shortly after I entered the building, I confronted Oswald. The man who identified himself as the superintendent said that Oswald was alright, that he was employed there. We left Oswald there, and the supervisor showed me the way upstairs. We couldn’tt get anyone to send the elevator down. In giving the place a quick check, I found nothing out of the ordinary, so started back down to see what had happened. Not knowing for sure what had happened. I was limited in what I could legally do.

The investigator from Washington contacted me for my recollection of what had happened, but I guess they weren’t interested in what I said.

 

Who on Earth could officer E have been?

Any guesses? Marion Baker anyone?

 

Review of Gary Savage's book.

9 December 2009

Format: Hardcover
For serious students of the JFK assassination this book is a 'must have'.

There is so much to commend this wonderful publication that it really is very difficult to know where to start. Perhaps it would be best to kick-off with the author and his 'source'.
Gary Savage wrote this book in conjunction with his uncle R. W. (Rusty) Livingston. Rusty served with the Dallas Police Department for twenty-three years beginning in 1951. On the evening of JFK's murder Rusty was working in the Crime Scene Search Section of the Identification Bureau. He helped process much of the evidence developed by the DPD. Fortunately for Savage and history, Rusty had maintained reference copies of everything that he worked on. That `everything' is here present in book form as fresh as the day that it was culled from the crime scenes.

It's all here - the backyard photographs, the spy camera, the finger prints, plenty of documents and much, much more.

The book also features the full rebuttal of the `acoustics evidence' that was used to `sex-up' the 1978 HSCA report with the tantalising "..probability of 95% or better, that there was a fourth shot from the grassy knoll". The rebuttal was prepared by James C. Bowles who was best placed to refute the claim.

Wonderful book!
Edited by Ray Mitcham
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7 minutes ago, François Carlier said:

You are all saying that "Prayer man" was Oswald, therefore Oswald had an ironclad alibi, therefore he was not JFK's assassin.

 

Nobody ever said that. Here's how the reasoning goes:

Several factors, not covered in this thread, indicate Oswald's innocence. It follows, then, that there was no need for Oswald to lie about his whereabouts. This was all true long before the Hosty notes were found.

Fast forward to Bart's discovery of the Hosty notes. They reveal that Oswald went outside to watch the presidential parade. Since Oswald had no reason to lie, he must have really done that.

This means that there's a good chance we have Oswald on film. If he remained on the steps for at least 40 seconds after the shots were fired, we have Oswald on film. And he is probably Prayer Man.

 

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1 hour ago, Ray Mitcham said:

Shortly after I entered the building, I confronted Oswald. The man who identified himself as the superintendent said that Oswald was alright, that he was employed there. We left 

So, you are quoting a policeman who confronted Oswald inside the building, right ?

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32 minutes ago, François Carlier said:

So, you are quoting a policeman who confronted Oswald inside the building, right ?

Yes. Note the end of the paragraph.

The man who said he was the building superintendent was outside and met me at the door and went in with me. Shortly after I entered the building, I confronted Oswald. The man who identified himself as the superintendent said that Oswald was alright, that he was employed there. We left Oswald there, and the supervisor showed me the way upstairs.

 

i.e After he had seen Oswald they went upstairs. Sort of blows his Warren testimony out of the water.

Edited by Ray Mitcham
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Ray:

an excellent quotation from this rare book which I did not read and maybe many other researchers neither. So, the officer and Truly left Oswald on the first floor before continuing upstairs. This is another confirmation of the true course of events.

Edited by Andrej Stancak
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1 minute ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Ray:

an excellent quotation from this rare book which I did not read and maybe many other researcher neither. So, the officer and Truly left Oswald on the first floor before continuing upstairs. This is another confirmation of the true course of events.

Exactly my way of thinking, Andrej. Things are getting murkier. We await Langley's response.

Edited by Ray Mitcham
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Wow. I didn't think the information in this thread could get worse for our LN friends, but certainly seems to have happened.

2 hours ago, Ray Mitcham said:

Shortly after I entered the building, I confronted Oswald. The man who identified himself as the superintendent said that Oswald was alright, that he was employed there. We left Oswald there, and the supervisor showed me the way upstairs

By the LN's own logic, this statement by "Officer E" shows the timeline to be: Officer E enters the building on the first floor, Officer E confronts Oswald, Truly clears Oswald, Truly shows Officer E upstairs apparently after trying and failing to get someone to send the elevator down.

According to this statement by "Officer E" Oswald wasn't on the sixth floor, on his way down from the sixth floor, or even on the second floor. Oswald was on the first floor.

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1 hour ago, Ray Mitcham said:

Yes. Note the end of the paragraph.

The man who said he was the building superintendent was outside and met me at the door and went in with me. Shortly after I entered the building, I confronted Oswald. The man who identified himself as the superintendent said that Oswald was alright, that he was employed there. We left Oswald there, and the supervisor showed me the way upstairs.

 

i.e After he had seen Oswald they went upstairs. Sort of blows his Warren testimony out of the water.

I really enjoy this thread. I see conspiracy theorists being overexcited about a non-event. This thread should be re-titled : MUCH ADO ABOUT NOTHING !

The only way you conspiracy theorists manage to be satisfied with the so-called "new" documents is by selecting the evidence, picking the sentences that you like and discarding whole paragraphs that you don't like. All the while refusing to answer my logical posts (because you can't).

Anyway.

Mister Mitcham :

- 1. You are quoting a document stipulating that the police officer met Oswald inside the building, not outside. That's hardly evidence for the "prayer man" theory.

- 2. your document states that the building superintendent (i.e. Roy Truly) was outside and met the police officer at the door and went in with him. So, I'll get back to my eternal question : how is it that Truly never saw Oswald outside ? How is it that Truly (and all the rest of the colleagues) NEVER saw that Oswald had been outside during the motorcade ? (the answer is : because Oswald was never outside !!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

- 3. Like most of your conspiracy friends, you don't mind smearing dead people. You like calling honest people l-i-a-r-s. You enjoy defaming decent men. Well, I'm not here to judge, so feel free to continue if that's how you want to be remembered. Nonetheless, it is something that I find appalling. I'll go to my grave saying that Marrion Baker and Roy Truly told the truth and never lied to the Warren Commission. You'll go to yours saying that everybody and their dog lied. OK. I say that Marrion Baker and Roy Truly did have an encounter with Oswald. I say it was on the 2nd floor. You conspiracy advocates sometimes say that that encounter never happened. Now, you, Mitcham, are saying that it did happen, but on another floor. MAKE UP YOUR MIND, YOU CONSPIRACY THEORISTS : did the encounter happen or not ?

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2 hours ago, Ray Mitcham said:

Yes. Note the end of the paragraph.

The man who said he was the building superintendent was outside and met me at the door and went in with me. Shortly after I entered the building, I confronted Oswald. The man who identified himself as the superintendent said that Oswald was alright, that he was employed there. We left Oswald there, and the supervisor showed me the way upstairs.

 

i.e After he had seen Oswald they went upstairs. Sort of blows his Warren testimony out of the water.

 

I don't believe this story of (probably Baker) confronting Oswald on the first floor. The reason being that in his first-day affidavit, Baker said that there were "several people standing around" when he went inside.  Why would he single out Oswald in this situation?

Baker says in his affidavit that he confronted a guy on the third or fourth floor. I suspect that he confronted this guy because he found him alone up near the top floor, which is where he thought the shots came from.

I believe that Officer E's story did come from Baker, and that Baker got his story mixed up up again, thereby placing the false encounter on the first floor instead of the second. IIRC he had a hard time getting the story straight for the WC. I don't think he ever understood the significance of the (false) encounter happening on the second floor.

 

Edited by Sandy Larsen
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38 minutes ago, François Carlier said:

Mister Mitcham :

- 1. You are quoting a document stipulating that the police officer met Oswald inside the building, not outside. That's hardly evidence for the "prayer man" theory.

 

(I know Francois' comments are for Ray, but I would like to give my take also.)

I proved two or three years ago that Baker didn't rush into the TSBD like the official story tells it. We have only a vague idea how much time elapsed before he went inside.
 

 

Even so, I think your point is moot because I don't think Baker EVER confronted Oswald. He confronted a guy on the third or fourth floor who didn't match Oswald's description.

 

38 minutes ago, François Carlier said:

- 2. your document states that the building superintendent (i.e. Roy Truly) was outside and met the police officer at the door and went in with him. So, I'll get back to my eternal question : how is it that Truly never saw Oswald outside ? How is it that Truly (and all the rest of the colleagues) NEVER saw that Oswald had been outside during the motorcade ? (the answer is : because Oswald was never outside !!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

 

I believe that Roy Truly was a CIA asset and was told what to say.

I believe that most the others did not notice Oswald, and that those who did were intimidated into going along with the lone gunman story.

 

38 minutes ago, François Carlier said:

- 3. Like most of your conspiracy friends, you don't mind smearing dead people.....


How is it a smear to say that a person lied because he or she was intimidated into doing so?

 

38 minutes ago, François Carlier said:

....You like calling honest people l-i-a-r-s. You enjoy defaming decent men. Well, I'm not here to judge, so feel free to continue if that's how you want to be remembered. Nonetheless, it is something that I find appalling. I'll go to my grave saying that Marrion Baker and Roy Truly told the truth and never lied to the Warren Commission. You'll go to yours saying that everybody and their dog lied. OK. I say that Marrion Baker and Roy Truly did have an encounter with Oswald. I say it was on the 2nd floor. You conspiracy advocates sometimes say that that encounter never happened. Now, you, Mitcham, are saying that it did happen, but on another floor.

MAKE UP YOUR MIND, YOU CONSPIRACY THEORISTS : did the encounter happen or not ?


It happened between Baker and a fellow on the third or fourth floor who wasn't Oswald.

That's what I say. Ray and the others may disagree, of course,.

 

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Add together Ochus Campbell seeing Oswald in the small locker room within the vestibule, seems to confirm, that Os was there then. As for it destroying Prayerman theory, this is ridiculous as Oswald, just had to move into the vestibule after the assassination, but then I think that may be too much for Francois to comprehend.

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