Then went outside to watch the P. parade

[David Von Pein]

9 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I proved two or three years ago that Baker didn't rush into the TSBD like the official story tells it.

You "proved" no such thing....

https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2016/04/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1123.html

Edited February 14, 2019 by David Von Pein

[Ron Bulman]

2 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

All (or most) of which was totally understandable from the point-of-view of the Dallas Police Department on the night of 11/22/63, in my opinion.

The cops have a suspect (Oswald) who they know was driven to work (along with the JFK murder weapon) on the morning of the assassination by this other TSBD worker (Frazier). The cops don't know what (if anything) Buell Frazier knows about the planning of the shooting. Maybe this guy Frazier is an accomplice. The police can't tell at that point.

Frazier's alleged "rough treatment" might be considered too excessive by some people, but IMO, given what the police knew and didn't know at that early hour on 11/22, I think the DPD's behavior with respect to Buell Wesley Frazier was totally within reason. (The part about Fritz "raising a hand" to hit Frazier is something I've got some doubts about, however. I'm wondering if that episode really did occur, or whether Buell was adding in a little extra "drama", shall we say, to the story he told later on. We know that Buell was prone to "add" some things to his story as the years went by. Such as the "added" part about Buell seeing Oswald walking down Houston Street after the assassination, which is something he never told anybody [AFAIK] until 2002.)

https://drive.google.com / Interview With Buell Wesley Frazier (June 21, 2002) (2 Hours)

You (?) you think Fraizer was adding to...the story he told later on?  Heck I've wondered for years, at the "urging" of others, might he have added a package of custom wrapped curtain rods to the story.  One that Oswald could carry cupped in his palm with the other end stuck under his arm pit.

Then again.  If he was adding to, he could have been holding back as well.  Like about Oswald being out front, with Shelly, others, and him.  The topic of this thread.

[James DiEugenio]

FC, two hours ago I asked you if you knew what I had written about Wesley Frazier and that weekend.

 

I have been waiting for you to reply.

Yes or no?

[David Von Pein]

17 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

FC, two hours ago I asked you if you knew what I had written about Wesley Frazier and that weekend.

I have been waiting for you to reply.

Yes or no?

Not everybody's like me and stays up all night. (Geez.)

FC's in France, you know.

Edited February 14, 2019 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

On 2/13/2019 at 9:32 PM, Ron Bulman said:

You (?) you think Fraizer [sic] was adding to...the story he told later on? 

There's no doubt that he "added" the "I saw Oswald on Houston St." stuff to his story many years after 1963. Because he said this on 11/22/63....

"I did not see Lee anymore after about 11:00 AM today, and at that time, we were both working, and we were on the first floor."

http://1.bp.blogspot.com / Buell-Wesley-Frazier-Affidavit

Edited February 15, 2019 by David Von Pein

[Tony Krome]

40 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

There's no doubt that he "added" the "I saw Oswald on Houston St." stuff to his story many years after 1963. Because he said this on 11/22/63....

"I did not see Lee anymore after about 11:00 AM today [11/22/63], and at that time, we were both working, and we were on the first floor."

http://1.bp.blogspot.com / Buell-Wesley-Frazier-Affidavit

After the assassination, they were trying to piece together for a long time how and when Oswald left the TSBD ... yet Frazier had that information in hand all along.

Now why would he not say anything at the time?

Could it be that at first he did tell them that he saw Oswald both walking up the street and next to him watching the parade?

Fritz gets all slap-happy, threatens Frazier and advises him to keep his mouth shut and just say he never saw Oswald at all.

I wonder if they confiscated Frazier's Enfield to use against him

"NBC and WBAP radio identified it as a British Enfield .303."

Imagine Frazier if they pointed out that radio report to him with a wink

[James DiEugenio]

OK, Francois.

I will wait for your reply tomorrow.  Try and be ready.

Tony, you are stealing my thunder.

Edited February 14, 2019 by James DiEugenio

[Ron Bulman]

3 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

 

This post, the 6th in a two hour period is a perfect example of a tag team between dv and frank the Frenchman to bury relevant post's and discussion.

[Cliff Varnell]

Every time the nutters elicit a response they win.

[François Carlier]

2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

OK, Francois.

I will wait for your reply tomorrow.  Try and be ready.

Tony, you are stealing my thunder.

Good morning.
Hey, remember that I am in Paris, France. There's a 9-hour difference between France and California. I try to sleep during the night.
In all honesty, I must say that I don't know what you are talking about. Are you asking me to tell you what you have written about Buell Frazier in your last book, when I have precisely and openly admitted that I haven't bought your book yet (and therefore haven't read it) ??????
I don't understand.
Furthermore, my questions from last night have nothing to do with your book. I wasn't refering to your book at all. I was asking legitimate questions about what Buell Frazier may have said about Oswald being present or not near him when he was watching the presidential motorcade.
I mentionned the fact that Buell Frazier was a guest or speaker at some JFK-Lancer conference in the past, and as you often go to JFK-Lancer conferences I was wondering if you have ever been able to talk to him ? Maybe you had the opportunity to have a conversation with him ? Or ask him a few questions ? (For example, in the past, in such conferences in Dallas, I was able to have private, tape-recorded conversations with researchers such as Robert Groden, Jim Marrs, David Lifton, John Judge and several others).
I was asking you : has Buell Frazier ever told you that he saw Oswald near him outside the building at the time the motorcade was on Elm Street ? If you have such information, please share it with us.
I don't believe that Buell Frazier can have told you any such thing at any time. Nor to anyone.
As David Von Pein has reminded us with the quote he wrote in his last post, Frazier said that he didn't see Oswald anymore after 11.00 a.m. that day. In other words, according to Buell Frazier -- who was there, and you were not -- Lee Oswald was not next to him when the presidential parade passed the TSBD.
Therefore, I doubt very much that the unknown, blurry figure next to Buell Frazier that you all call "prayer man" is Lee Oswald.
That's all.

[Cory Santos]

25 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Every time the nutters elicit a response they win.

Thank you.

[Guest]

From my up and coming paper Anatomy Of Lee Harvey Oswald's Interrogations.

One individual who got into close contact with the Dallas Police and also received the rough end of it was Buell Wesley Frazier. Frazier was picked up from the hospital by Rose and Stovall and brought in to be interrogated by Will Fritz and others. Then when he was about to be dropped of home by the police he was brought back in again and submitted to a polygraph test. This polygraph test has not seen the light of day, and I doubt it ever will be. I myself tried to obtain it from the national archives, but other than a set of pages with correspondence between law enforcement agencies enquiring about trying to get hold of the polygraph there is nothing to be had. Below are two videos of Frazier discussing his ‘arrest’ at the hospital and also on Fritz’s interrogation methods which are quite revealing.

 

Buell Wesley Frazier and Gus Rose on the 3^rd floor of the D.P.D.

Buell Wesley Frazier speaking to Norwegian TV on his arrest.

 

Buell Frazier in the Richmond Times Dispatch. Bear in mind that this was before he had even learned that his co-worker had been arrested and charged for the assassination

“I was interrogated and questioned for many, many hours,” Frazier said. “Interrogators would rotate.”

 

Buell Frazier describes his interrogation with Will Fritz.

Dallas police Capt. Will Fritz, who was in charge of the homicide department, came into the room with a typed statement. He handed Frazier a pen and demanded he sign it. It was a confession. Frazier refused. “I said I was not signing that. This was ridiculous,” he said. “Captain Fritz got very red-faced, and he put up his hand to hit me and I put my arm up to block. I told him we’d have a hell of a fight and I would get some good licks in on him. Then he stormed out the door.”

In the book Where Were You by Gus Russo and Harry Moses, Buell Wesley Frazier goes through it again in more depth.

 Before I got off to Irving, the radio said they had captured a man outside of the Texas Theatre in Oak Cliff, and the more they talked about what went on, I put things together and realized they were talking about Lee. I said, “My gosh. I can’t believe what I’m hearing.” Since I’d gotten off early, my mother and my stepfather were up visiting one of my sisters and her husband and three children. He had had a heart attack, so he was

in the hospital at Irving Boulevard and Pioneer. I thought, I can stop by and check on him, so that’s what I did. I was in his room, and then a nurse came to the door and said, “I have a phone call for you at the desk.” I said, “Just patch it through here to the room.”

She said, “I’m new; I don’t really know how to do that.”

I said, “OK, I’ll be there in just a minute.” Well, I opened the door to go to the nurses’ station, and two guys grabbed me and threw me up against the wall; I was totally shocked. I said to them, “What is going on here? Why are you doing this to me?”

They said, “We’re arresting you.” I said, “For what? I haven’t done anything.” That was Detective Rose and Detective Stovall. They took me to their car, and we stopped at the Irving Police Station. They talked with someone there, and then they took me on to downtown Dallas. They asked about everything you could think of. It was just repetitious—over and over and over for hours. Detective Rose and Stovall started off; then they took a break, and two more detectives come in and quizzed me with the same

questions, over and over. They just asked me things about Lee and my work and stuff like that. Things I knew I could tell them. They asked about the package Lee had with him. I said, “He did bring a package with him this morning.” They asked me about the length of the package, and I told them, “It was roughly two feet, give or take an inch or two either way.”

Every answer I gave them was the answer I knew. One time, Captain Will Fritz, who was head of the Homicide Department, brought in a typed statement, and he wanted me to sign it. Now, Captain Fritz, I’m sure, did a lot of good things for the Dallas Police Department, but over the years, I’ve asked myself: Somewhere along the line did he become like the people he hunted? When he put the paper down in front of me, I started to read it. He wanted me to sign a paper that I was confessing to being part of the assassination and that I knew of it—that I had knowledge of it and that it was going happen. I told him I wasn’t signing that. I told him it wasn’t the truth. Well, Captain Will Fritz was quite hot-tempered. When I told him I wasn’t signing it, he drew back his hand to hit me, and I took my arm up to block. I was sitting there at the table, and all during the questioning, I just had to look straight into a wall. I couldn’t look sideways or anything, and when I told him I wasn’t going to sign it, I think he really could have struck me. But I told him, “Outside that door are some policemen, and before they get in here, we’re going to have one hell of a fight. I’m going to get some punches in.” He walked out, and I never did see the man again. I don’t want to come across as though I hated the man. I just was so unhappy with the way he treated me. On Saturday morning I was cleared to go home. They cleared me one time, and we were on the way out to Irving when they got a call and turned around and brought me back. That’s when they did the fingerprints and a mug shot. I couldn’t believe what was going on. This was kind of like a nightmare to me. We went back, and after more questioning and so forth, they finally let me go. I didn’t know anything about Lee shooting the policeman, J. D. Tippit. When I’d tell them something, they’d come back and say, “That’s not true.” But I knew it was. I knew what I was telling them was the truth, and I didn’t deviate from that.

 Frazier also discusses Fritz and the Lee Enfield rifle at the AARC Conference at 19:05.

He starts with his arrest while in the hospital visiting his father in law. They then go via his place, to confiscate his Lee Enfield and a shotgun, to the police station. He then relays that two homicide detectives (probably Rose and Stovall) interrogated him for hours. More like a military interrogation. Telling him where to look and slap him down and when these two got tired a new crew would walk in and start all over again with the same questions. At 24:55 he brings up Will Fritz and again states the same as before that Fritz was walking in with a prepared statement and wanted Frazier to sign it.

 And repeats the same story in this video which Hugh Aynesworth is sitting next to him asking a few questions. “The way he treated me was totally uncalled for.”

 

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

I do not think Frazier had an appetite to defend a possible cop killer who also was described as a commie defector and had only worked at his place of work for roughly 4-5 weeks. And who had a statement shoved in front of him by Will ''98% clearance rate'' Fritz that made him a co-conspirator to the President's killing.

"Oh yes Captain he was standing right next to me......."

Sure.

Joe Molina same thing.....study who actually was there when they tossed his house at 2 AM..........

 

And perhaps both made statements that he stood next to them, but like the Hosty paper work it simply got deep sixed. You can't put that past the D.P.D. back then either.

Edited February 14, 2019 by Bart Kamp

[Andrej Stancak]

8 hours ago, François Carlier said:

Someone has to ask him point blank as soon as possible and video tape the conversation. 

Francois: there are points on which we can agree and this is certainly one of those.

 

[Vanessa Loney]

1 hour ago, Bart Kamp said:

From my up and coming paper Anatomy Of Lee Harvey Oswald's Interrogations.

One individual who got into close contact with the Dallas Police and also received the rough end of it was Buell Wesley Frazier. Frazier was picked up from the hospital by Rose and Stovall and brought in to be interrogated by Will Fritz and others. Then when he was about to be dropped of home by the police he was brought back in again and submitted to a polygraph test. This polygraph test has not seen the light of day, and I doubt it ever will be. I myself tried to obtain it from the national archives, but other than a set of pages with correspondence between law enforcement agencies enquiring about trying to get hold of the polygraph there is nothing to be had. Below are two videos of Frazier discussing his ‘arrest’ at the hospital and also on Fritz’s interrogation methods which are quite revealing.

 

Buell Wesley Frazier and Gus Rose on the 3^rd floor of the D.P.D.

Buell Wesley Frazier speaking to Norwegian TV on his arrest.

 

Buell Frazier in the Richmond Times Dispatch. Bear in mind that this was before he had even learned that his co-worker had been arrested and charged for the assassination

“I was interrogated and questioned for many, many hours,” Frazier said. “Interrogators would rotate.”

 

Buell Frazier describes his interrogation with Will Fritz.

Dallas police Capt. Will Fritz, who was in charge of the homicide department, came into the room with a typed statement. He handed Frazier a pen and demanded he sign it. It was a confession. Frazier refused. “I said I was not signing that. This was ridiculous,” he said. “Captain Fritz got very red-faced, and he put up his hand to hit me and I put my arm up to block. I told him we’d have a hell of a fight and I would get some good licks in on him. Then he stormed out the door.”

In the book Where Were You by Gus Russo and Harry Moses, Buell Wesley Frazier goes through it again in more depth.

 Before I got off to Irving, the radio said they had captured a man outside of the Texas Theatre in Oak Cliff, and the more they talked about what went on, I put things together and realized they were talking about Lee. I said, “My gosh. I can’t believe what I’m hearing.” Since I’d gotten off early, my mother and my stepfather were up visiting one of my sisters and her husband and three children. He had had a heart attack, so he was

in the hospital at Irving Boulevard and Pioneer. I thought, I can stop by and check on him, so that’s what I did. I was in his room, and then a nurse came to the door and said, “I have a phone call for you at the desk.” I said, “Just patch it through here to the room.”

She said, “I’m new; I don’t really know how to do that.”

I said, “OK, I’ll be there in just a minute.” Well, I opened the door to go to the nurses’ station, and two guys grabbed me and threw me up against the wall; I was totally shocked. I said to them, “What is going on here? Why are you doing this to me?”

They said, “We’re arresting you.” I said, “For what? I haven’t done anything.” That was Detective Rose and Detective Stovall. They took me to their car, and we stopped at the Irving Police Station. They talked with someone there, and then they took me on to downtown Dallas. They asked about everything you could think of. It was just repetitious—over and over and over for hours. Detective Rose and Stovall started off; then they took a break, and two more detectives come in and quizzed me with the same

questions, over and over. They just asked me things about Lee and my work and stuff like that. Things I knew I could tell them. They asked about the package Lee had with him. I said, “He did bring a package with him this morning.” They asked me about the length of the package, and I told them, “It was roughly two feet, give or take an inch or two either way.”

Every answer I gave them was the answer I knew. One time, Captain Will Fritz, who was head of the Homicide Department, brought in a typed statement, and he wanted me to sign it. Now, Captain Fritz, I’m sure, did a lot of good things for the Dallas Police Department, but over the years, I’ve asked myself: Somewhere along the line did he become like the people he hunted? When he put the paper down in front of me, I started to read it. He wanted me to sign a paper that I was confessing to being part of the assassination and that I knew of it—that I had knowledge of it and that it was going happen. I told him I wasn’t signing that. I told him it wasn’t the truth. Well, Captain Will Fritz was quite hot-tempered. When I told him I wasn’t signing it, he drew back his hand to hit me, and I took my arm up to block. I was sitting there at the table, and all during the questioning, I just had to look straight into a wall. I couldn’t look sideways or anything, and when I told him I wasn’t going to sign it, I think he really could have struck me. But I told him, “Outside that door are some policemen, and before they get in here, we’re going to have one hell of a fight. I’m going to get some punches in.” He walked out, and I never did see the man again. I don’t want to come across as though I hated the man. I just was so unhappy with the way he treated me. On Saturday morning I was cleared to go home. They cleared me one time, and we were on the way out to Irving when they got a call and turned around and brought me back. That’s when they did the fingerprints and a mug shot. I couldn’t believe what was going on. This was kind of like a nightmare to me. We went back, and after more questioning and so forth, they finally let me go. I didn’t know anything about Lee shooting the policeman, J. D. Tippit. When I’d tell them something, they’d come back and say, “That’s not true.” But I knew it was. I knew what I was telling them was the truth, and I didn’t deviate from that.

 Frazier also discusses Fritz and the Lee Enfield rifle at the AARC Conference at 19:05.

He starts with his arrest while in the hospital visiting his father in law. They then go via his place, to confiscate his Lee Enfield and a shotgun, to the police station. He then relays that two homicide detectives (probably Rose and Stovall) interrogated him for hours. More like a military interrogation. Telling him where to look and slap him down and when these two got tired a new crew would walk in and start all over again with the same questions. At 24:55 he brings up Will Fritz and again states the same as before that Fritz was walking in with a prepared statement and wanted Frazier to sign it.

 And repeats the same story in this video which Hugh Aynesworth is sitting next to him asking a few questions. “The way he treated me was totally uncalled for.”

 

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

I do not think Frazier had an appetite to defend a possible cop killer who also was described as a commie defector and had only worked at his place of work for roughly 4-5 weeks. And who had a statement shoved in front of him by Will ''98% clearance rate'' Fritz that made him a co-conspirator to the President's killing.

"Oh yes Captain he was standing right next to me......."

Sure.

Joe Molina same thing.....study who actually was there when they tossed his house at 2 AM..........

 

And perhaps both made statements that he stood next to them, but like the Hosty paper work it simply got deep sixed. You can't put that past the D.P.D. back then either.

Frazier also told the Sixth Floor Museum in an interview that his family was threatened and that he didn't mind for his own sake but it did matter when his family was threatened.

[Vanessa Loney]

On ‎2‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 8:30 PM, James DiEugenio said:

Oh please Davey. 

Will you get off it.  Every single possible excuse that David Belin could dream up, you lay down here.

Oh my aching back.  

Look, if this is legit, and it looks like it is, then its the closest thing we have to an audiotape of Oswald in detention.  As Vanessa said, the DPD never asked Oswald to write a declaration, for whatever reason.  So this is as close as we get to it.  And, by the way, we can all see why that was today. Fritz was such a slimeball.

I also believe that this interview took place before Oswald knew he was charged with JFK's murder. Which is important if its accurate.

With it we now have about 2-4 sources that say LHO was either outside or on the first floor at the time of the shooting.  But this one is the best  yet.  Thanks to Malcolm and Bart.

If you combine this with the work Barry Ernest did, plus the fact that Baker never mentioned  the second floor encounter in his original affidavit, then I think that is pretty probative. 

But man, what does this all say about the fact finding mechanism of the WC?  It was worse than bad.  They really were accessories after the fact.

 

I think Junior Jarman should be added to the 2-4 sources who say Oswald was outside. In Junior Jarman's HSCA interview he said Billy Lovelady told him that Oswald was outside.

What's significant about this is that even if Jarman was 'lying' or 'wrong' or just 'confused' the fact that he identified Lovelady as the source gives the statement credibility. Because we know with certainty that Lovelady was on the steps and was in a position to see PM/Oswald. 

If Jarman had mentioned as the source someone who wasn't on the steps then the claim wouldn't be so credible.