“The lights all went out,” and the elevators stopped while JFK was murdered. Shelley and Lovelady were near the bottom of the back staircase, by the electrical panel... and Vickie Adams saw them ... until everyone's story changed...

[John Butler]

23 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

Good enough.

[John Butler]

I really don't see any doors at all on any floor.  I guess if there was a fire they would just crawl out the window.  That's really cheap.

This puts the kibosh on Richard Carr and a side door unless they crawled out a window.  The back of the TSBD looks better as the escape route for the conspirators.  Speculation often leads to useful information.  The important point is the eventual truth.

I might ask if one had this type of information why wasn't it shown earlier?  And, what is its source? 

Edited April 8, 2019 by John Butler

[Tony Krome]

43 minutes ago, John Butler said:

I really don't see any doors at all on any floor.  I guess if there was a fire they would just crawl out the window.  That's really cheap.

This puts the kibosh on Richard Carr and a side door unless they crawled out a window.  The back of the TSBD looks better as the escape route for the conspirators.  Speculation often leads to useful information.  The important point is the eventual truth.

I might ask if one had this type of information why wasn't it shown earlier?  And, what is its source? 

Carr would have been referring to the loading dock side entrance further north

"why wasn't it shown earlier?"

You might be in a different time zone. I looked for the file after I woke up, then uploaded it. I was posting earlier from memory

[John Butler]

37 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

Carr would have been referring to the loading dock side entrance further north

"why wasn't it shown earlier?"

You might be in a different time zone. I looked for the file after I woke up, then uploaded it. I was posting earlier from memory

I meant earlier in the discussion.  Carr clearly talks about a door on the side of the building.  Doesn't seem to be one.  Isn't the loading dock on the north face of the TSBD?   

Could you tell me who took this photo and what year was it?  Is it part of a larger photo?  I haven't seen this anywhere before and it appears to be a new thing.  Has this been shown anywhere else?

[Tony Krome]

25 minutes ago, John Butler said:

Carr clearly talks about a door on the side of the building.  Doesn't seem to be one.  Isn't the loading dock on the north face of the TSBD?   

Carr does not mention a TSBD side door in the Shaw Trial testimony, he said side entrance. There are steps on the Houston side of the TSBD that lead to the loading dock entrance. From where he was looking, it would appear to be a side entrance.

[John Butler]

I understand what you are saying.  I would think that would be the same as coming from around the back (as Carr would see it) of the TSBD.  What about the source information for the photo?

[Ron Bulman]

12 minutes ago, John Butler said:

I understand what you are saying.  I would think that would be the same as coming from around the back (as Carr would see it) of the TSBD.  What about the source information for the photo?

Going back to the topic, light's out.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=that's+the+night+the+lights+went+out+reba&form=PRUSEN&mkt=en-us&httpsmsn=1&refig=22585f64ed744d9cbbb780c7a38310b0&sp=-1&pq=that's+the+night+the+ligjts&sc=8-27&qs=n&sk=&cvid=22585f64ed744d9cbbb780c7a38310b0

[Ray Mitcham]

8 hours ago, John Butler said:

I really don't see any doors at all on any floor.  I guess if there was a fire they would just crawl out the window.  That's really cheap.

 

Not cheap, most fire escapes are next to windows.😉

They don't normally put fire doors on upper walls,  and  a fire door wasn't required on the first floor as there were already a number of exits for escape available.

Another case of what the Butler saw, and mis interpreted.

[Jim Hargrove]

I was playing Frisbee golf today when John A. called my cell and we spoke for a few minutes.  I asked if he was sure there was a basement exit in the TSBD and he said yes, absolutely, and described it.  He said it was on the west side, and when you opened the exit door there were stairs and a banister outside leading up.  

I said someone here found a basement floor plan and no exterior exit was indicated.  He said it didn’t matter that he was sure there was an exit. I forgot to ask him when he saw it, but it was probably in the 1990s or early 2000s when he spent the most time researching this case.  I’ve tried Googling for a TSBD basement exit and so far have come up empty.

[John Butler]

Jim,

Does it matter?  In reality the conspirators from the 6th floor left the building undetected.  No one mentions seeing the people described on the 6th as leaving the building.  Craig sees an Oswald run from the building but, correct me if I am wrong he just sees him run down hill not leave the building.

Let's assume that the Armstrong / Hargrove passenger elevator theory is correct (I think so).  The purpose of using the passenger elevator would be to avoid detection and observation.  The best use would be to go to the basement where you could leave by the main stairs and then exit the building at the north face.  If Armstrong is correct and there was an exterior exit on the west face that would be even better.  You could avoid observation all together.  Mission accomplished.

The only problem here is was the basement exit around in 1963 and not added during one of the renovations of TSBD.  This is like my assumption of fire escape doors rather than fire escape windows.  A clearer proof needs to be established that there was a basement exit on the west face in 1963.

Lacking that evidence and for the moment I going to accept Mr. Armstrong's statements based on his strong credibility as a thorough researcher.  I have found I have few disagreements with the Harvey and Lee notion.  Maybe, some minor disagreements on a photo of who a particular Oswald is or not. 

 

[Guest]

James Romack, most interesting.

Who was the copper going there?

I have read something like this before, just cannot think of which copper. Otherwise it could be Baker?

 

Thanks to  Malcolm Blunt.

 

[Jim Hargrove]

Megathanks, Bart, for yet another fascinating doc from Malcolm Blunt's files.  Please keep them coming!

Below is James Richard Worrell's alleged 11/23/63 DPD statement.  Perhaps someone who knows the Dallas streets around Dealey Plaza can tell us whether Worrell's alleged affidavit supports or differs from Romack's alleged statement.  Sorry to say "alleged" so many times, but here's Worrell's alleged statement....

[Tony Krome]

3 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Who was the copper going there?

The copper is Barnett

Right now, I don't believe a word of that Romack document. Barnett does not mention talking to or seeing anyone when he ran up Houston to the north/east corner of the TSBD. Even more damning for Romack is that Barnett beleived no-one else was watching the building;

Mr. LIEBELER - So you ran around here on Houston Street immediately to the east of the Texas School Book Depository Building and watched the fire escape? 
Mr. BARNETT - I went 20 foot past the building still on Houston, looking up. I could see the whole back of the building and also the east side of the building. 

Mr. BARNETT - Yes; but there was no sign they were going into the building or watching the building, so I decided I was the only one watching the building. 

Edited April 11, 2019 by Tony Krome

[John Butler]

11 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

The copper is Barnett

Right now, I don't believe a word of that Romack document. Barnett does not mention talking to or seeing anyone when he ran up Houston to the north/east corner of the TSBD. Even more damning for Romack is that Barnett beleived no-one else was watching the building;

Mr. LIEBELER - So you ran around here on Houston Street immediately to the east of the Texas School Book Depository Building and watched the fire escape? 
Mr. BARNETT - I went 20 foot past the building still on Houston, looking up. I could see the whole back of the building and also the east side of the building. 

Mr. BARNETT - Yes; but there was no sign they were going into the building or watching the building, so I decided I was the only one watching the building. 

Who do you believe?  Things are a bit confused.

What happened in the intersection of Houston and Elm Street as the presidential motorcade came through and in the aftermath of the shooting is a question of who or what you believe in that happened there?  What happened on north Houston is also a matter of who or what you believe.

At this point Krome believes in Officer Barnett over James Romack.  There are more witnesses and here’s a list that needs to be looked at to determine what happened as the presidential motorcade passed through the intersection and shooting occurred.  Because of the differences in their testimony it takes more than one witness to determine what occurred in the intersection. 

1. 50 witnesses said there was shooting in the intersection or in front of the TSBD.  This is a minority position with more witnesses saying shooting happened further down Elm Street.  It raises reasonable doubt on what occurred.

2. Mrs. Earle Cabell stated that the motorcade came to a complete stop after the shooting.  How long that was is unknown.

3. Dave Weigman seconds what she said as he left his vehicle as it stopped and ran to the intersection.

4. There was 3 police officers stationed at the intersection of Houston and Elm.  There may have been an unknown officer there making 4 officers:

   1. Welcome Barnett

   2. Joe Marshall Smith

   3. Edgar Smith

   4. Unknown officer

5. Richard Carr

6. James Worrell

7. James Romack

As far as it goes for the people mentioned in Number 4 through Number 7, it is a matter of what you believe in or who you believe.

Officer Barnett was stationed either in the middle of north Houston Street at the intersection or he was on the northeast corner of Houston and Elm Street.  It hardly matters where he was since the difference is about 15 feet.  He would have observed the same things from either position.

Officer Joe Marshall Smith was stationed at the southeast corner of Houston and Elm or in the middle of Elm blocking west bound traffic.

Officer Edgar Smith was stationed either at the southeast corner of Houston or where he said he was in his testimony.  He said he was stationed under the windows at the Court Record building.

The presence of an unknown officer is suggested by the stoppage of the presidential motorcade in the intersection leaving the Mayor’s Car with Mrs. Cabell.  Who stopped the motorcade if:

1. Officer Barnett ran north on Houston after hearing shots.

2. Officers Joe Marshall and Edgar Smith ran to the Grassy Knoll after the shooting.

So, who released the Mayor’s Car and the National Press Pool Car and then held the Camera Cars at the intersection for a period of time not less than 30 seconds?  These events suggest the presence of a 4^th Officer in the intersection.

The Tina Towner film shows an officer on the southeast corner of Houston and Elm, an officer on the northeast corner of Houston and Elm, and an officer in the middle of north Houston at the intersection.  If we believe Officer Edgar Smith, who stated he was stationed under the windows of the Court Records Building, then we have a 4^th officer, an unknown officer.  You can see the presence of these officers in other media.

The problem is that these witnesses tell different stories.  James Romack said he talked to an officer at the back of the TSBD.  This officer was probably Welcome Barnett who doesn’t mention Romack.  Barnett said:

“Mr. BARNETT - Well, as best I remember, we each picked a corner and got on the corner. We were advised to stay on our corner, not to cross over to idly talk, but to stay on the corner and keep our eyes open and be ready.
Mr. LIEBELER - Which corner did you station yourself at? I have a picture here of an aerial view - you can sit down - Commission Exhibit No. 354.
Of course, you can recognize the intersection of Elm and Houston here in the left-hand upper portion of the picture; can you not?
Mr. BARNETT - I was right here.
Mr. LIEBELER - At No. 1.
Mr. BARNETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you remain there at all times from 10 o'clock until the motorcade arrived?
Mr. BARNETT - Yes; well, of course, I was here until we got word to stop the traffic, and I stepped out of this position here. I had to stop traffic from Houston here and help the other officers stop it on Elm, and stop this traffic on this small street that goes in front of the Depository Building.”

Barnett doesn’t say which corner he was on but, we can assume the northeast corner.  He was there until he moved to the middle of Houston Street. 

An important question here is who directed Barnett to stop traffic?  Was this the unknown officer?  Was Barnett the officer that stopped the Mayor’s Car and the National Press Pool Car.  Was he also the officer that held up the Camera Cars?  If so, he would have missed what happened on north Houston Street for about a minute.  Is that enough time for Carr’s 3 men to get into a vehicle and head north on Houston.  Is this enough time to miss James Worrell run north on Houston?

Barnett further says:

“Mr. LIEBELER - [Marking] In the general vicinity of No. 9?
Mr. BARNETT - Yes, sir; the car passed within a few feet of me, and I was holding some people, or seeing that they stayed back, and one small boy started. I was afraid he was going to get too close, and I stopped him
Mr. LIEBELER - Now the motorcade made the turn onto Elm Street from Houston Street, and you were standing at approximately in position No. 9, and you indicated before that you heard the shots fired; is that right?
Mr. BARNETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - How many shots did you here?
Mr. BARNETT - Three.
Mr. LIEBELER - Was there any echo in the area from where you were standing?
Mr. BARNETT - What do you mean by echo? You mean another sound besides the shots?
Mr. LIEBELER - Yes.
Mr. BARNETT - No; I didn't hear any echo. The whole sound echoed. The sound lingered, but as far as just two definite distinct sounds, when each shot was fired, that one sound would linger in the air, but there would be nothing else until the next shot.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see any of the shots hit the President?
Mr. BARNETT - Well, when the first shot - I was looking at the President when the first shot was fired, and I thought I saw him slump down, but I am not sure, and I didn't look any more then. I thought he was ducking then.”

Liebeler, as so many of the WC interrogators, confused the location of the witness by assigning numbered locations that were never fully explained.  The above testimony can be read as firing occurred as the president passed by Officer Barnett.  If Barnett was in the middle of Houston Street on the north side of the intersection could he see the president shot down by the Grassy Knoll.  I don't think so.

Here is something that most folks won’t believe and in their opinion discredits Officer Barnett’s testimony.  This concerns who was on the railroad bridge at the time Altgens 7 was taken:

“Mr. LIEBELER - Now when you were standing up there in position No. 9, you were in a spot where you could look right down Elm Street and see the railroad tracks down here which pass over the triple underpass?
Mr. BARNETT - Yes sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see anybody on the railroad tracks?
Mr. BARNETT - One or two officers. Two officers, I believe.
Mr. LIEBELER - Was there anybody else, as far as you can recall?
Mr. BARNETT - That is all I saw.”   

How could that be if Altgens recorded Officer Foster and 10 railroad workers who all swore they were there at the time of the shooting of the president.

From what is stated above can we believe what Officer Barnett says?  I personally believe Officer Barnett is correct in what he said about the two officers on the railroad bridge.  There are about 5 films and photos back up what he is saying.

However, people don’t believe that so it falsifies Officer Barnetts testimony.  Falsum in Uno, Falsus in Omnibus.

Edited April 11, 2019 by John Butler

[Ray Mitcham]

Don't know here John Butler gets his four officers at the junction of Houston and Elm, as Barnett says that just three officers were stationed there, not four.

"Well there were three of us assigned to that one corner.. J.D.Smith and another officer named Smith. I don't know his initials. E.L. I believe."

snip

"Barnett said as the Presidential motorcade turned from Main Street to Houston Street and came within his view, he stepped from his position near the south east corner of the Texas school book depository Building, toward the middle of Elm Street and held the Elm Street traffic back. After the motorcade had passed and made a left hand turn on the approach to Stemmons Freeway, he heard a shot.”

He was at "position 1" (i.e. in front of the SE corner of the TSBD)on Commission exhibit 354, i.e. in front of the SE corner of the TSBD, and moved into the middle of the intersection "position 9" (i.e. in the middle of the intersection of Houston and Elm)

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0487a.htm

 

As John says "Falsum in Uno, Falsus in Omnibus."

Edited April 12, 2019 by Ray Mitcham
mistype correction