“The lights all went out,” and the elevators stopped while JFK was murdered. Shelley and Lovelady were near the bottom of the back staircase, by the electrical panel... and Vickie Adams saw them ... until everyone's story changed...

[Tony Krome]

27 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

My gut feeling is that the Shelley/Lovelady encounter did happen, and Adams was browbeaten over the decades to deny it.

You could contact Barry Ernest and ask him for more detail;

https://en.gravatar.com/whodidit2014

https://www.facebook.com/barry.ernest.1

[Jim Hargrove]

John A. spoke to Barry Ernest several times, including a reasonably extensive interview, before he completed the article linked below.  I've always trusted John's instincts when it comes, as it so often does in this case, to analyzing wildly contradictory evidence.  Mr. Ernest noted both in his book and his conversation with John that Ms. Adams was very uneasy about the Lovelady/Shelley question.

ESCAPE FROM THE SIXTH FLOOR

Edited April 16, 2019 by Jim Hargrove

[John Butler]

Baker's information about two men on the first floor was not developed by the Sheriff's Office, Dallas Police, FBI, and would not have been developed by any WC Lawyer.  The question was asked by Senator John Sherman Cooper from Ky .

Marion Baker and two men

1. 1-22-63- Sheriff’s Office- States he saw people standing around and asked for where the elevator was.  Does not mention 2 men on the first floor.

2. 11-26-63- FBI statement- Baker does not mention 2 men on the first floor.

3. 11-29-63- FBI statement- Baker does not mention 2 men on the first floor.

4. 3-25-64- Warren Commission- Baker initially didn’t say anything about two men on the first floor.  But, later this is what was said-                                                    “SENATOR COOPER - Did you see anyone else while you were in the building, other than this man you have identified later as Oswald, and Mr. Truly?Mr. BAKER - On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us.  Mr. DULLES - Were they white men?Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.”

5. 9-23-64- FBI statement- says pretty much what he said in earlier FBI statements.

The information about two men on the first floor was not developed by the Sheriff's Office, the Dallas Police, the FBI, or any WC lawyer. As stated above it was developed by Senator John Sherman Cooper asking the question.  Is that relevant?  I think so.   

John Simkin- Oct, 29, 2006- "Regarding his service on the Warren Commission, Senator Cooper publicly expressed dissatisfaction with the commission's findings, terming the group's 1964 report "premature and inconclusive." In no uncertain terms he informed Jack's surviving brothers, Robert and Teddy, that, having personally examined thousands of shreds of documentation, he felt strongly that Lee Harvey Oswald had not acted alone."

Edited April 16, 2019 by John Butler

[Tony Krome]

6 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

My gut feeling is that the Shelley/Lovelady encounter did happen

Earlier in this thread I wrote;

Barry Ernest states Sandra Styles "quite emphatically" told him Shelley and Lovelady were NOT on the first floor when they arrived

The way I see it, you have two choices;

1. Sandra Styles gave false information to Barry Ernest

2. Barry Ernest made it all up

 

[Guest]

The Lovelady/Shelley encounter did not happen. That whole thing is fiction drummed up by Leavelle who has been lying about his interrogation of Oswald as well.

Lovelady did not go back inside the TSBD for about 25 mins, as per his HSCA testimony. He is seen smoking a ciggie on the Martin/Hughes segments.

Both Shelley and Lovelady lied through their teeth during their WC testimony about leaving the steps and the encounter inside.

 

Add on: I have a serious problem with Armstrong's latest work, and especially with his fairy tales as told to Len Osanic a few weeks back. It was so badly speculative that I had to turn it off. 

 

Edited April 16, 2019 by Bart Kamp

[Jim Hargrove]

 

I don't think so, Bart.  Both Shelley and Lovelady wrote affidavits in their own handwriting on 11/22/63, just a few hours after the assassination, and both indicated that they went back into the building quickly.  Moments after the last shot was fired at President Kennedy, Shelley and Lovelady were at the back of the TSBD on the 1st floor, and both men then accompanied police officers as they searched the building. 

In Shelley's 11/22/63 affidavit he wrote, "I went back to the building & went inside & called my wife & told her what happened. I was on the first floor then & I stayed at the elevator & was told not to let anyone out of the elevator. I left the elevator and went with the police on up to the other floors." (see affidavit below).

In Lovelady's 11/22/63 affidavit he wrote, "After it was over we went back into the building and went to work took some police officers up to search the building" (see affidavit below).

[Tony Krome]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

 

Both Shelley and Lovelady wrote affidavits in their own handwriting on 11/22/63, just a few hours after the assassination, and both indicated that they went back into the building quickly.  Moments after the last shot was fired at President Kennedy, Shelley and Lovelady were at the back of the TSBD on the 1st floor, and both men then accompanied police officers as they searched the building. 

In the HSCA interview, Robert Groden stated the Martin footage showing Lovelady on the TSBD front steps was filmed between 8 to 15 minutes after the assassination  (12:38pm to 12:45pm)

Do you have Lovelady searching the building with police before or after the Martin film?

[Jim Hargrove]

Tony,

I have Lovelady's own words in his own handwriting describing the shots and stating, "After it was over we went back into the building....."  Not a word about all the later nonsense about spending nearly a half hour outside doing this and that.  

[John Butler]

Groden must have been talking about another Martin film other than the John Martin film.  The John Martin film on Groden's DVD disk does not show the TSBD steps.  It skips from the Court Records Building to the western end of the TSBD and does not show the TSBD steps.  That is one of the pieces of the cover-up.

The John Martin film is only about 25 seconds long and occurs during the time of the assassination on Houston and Elm and not 8 to 15 minutes later.

Once again the theme is who do you believe? 

One of my contentions is that the cover-up was not to frame Oswald absolutely beyond all reasonable doubt.  But, to create paradoxical situations where reasonable doubt is raised and therefore you cannot convict anyone of a Kennedy assassination crime or conspiracy.

Who do I believe?  I think the first day testimonies are more accurate than later testimonies that have their stories evolved into the direction of the Lone Gunman theory.  But, you can not really put your faith in anything without a great deal of corroborating evidence.

As an example, I can not say that Altgens 5 was photo manipulated because shooting occurred at the Houston Street crosswalk near Main Street.  There is little or no evidence for that that people will believe.  Bonnie Williams and Marie Muchmore say that but, no one believes that because they changed their stories later.

Hargrove's use of the first day statements of Shelley and Lovelady are preferable to me than their later statements which could be subject to manipulation.  I believe these statements were written at the Sheriff's Office without much pressure put on the two men.  However, there is evidence to the contrary about witness manipulation when it comes to Jean Hill's Sheriff Office statement and what she said about it later.

Edited April 17, 2019 by John Butler

[Tony Krome]

Is Groden referring to this film?

A home movie, shot in colour by John Martin, was rediscovered in the 1970s. The film shows a crowd of people outside the main entrance of the TSBD a few minutes after the assassination. One of the people is unmistakeably Billy Lovelady. He is wearing a long–sleeved check shirt with red squares and white and blue horizontal and vertical stripes.

 

JOHN MARTIN

58-year-old John Martin filmed the motorcade on Main turning on Houston Street, and on Elm Street. The headshot is not shown as Martin stopped filming. That will be clear when you see the video. But the film shows crowd movement after the shots and the motorcade cars traveling down toward the underpass. He ran up the grassy knoll where he met, he was later told, a man of the Treasury Department. (The Pictures of the Pain, page 571). He remained around the Depository for about 10 minutes. In an FBI interview, Martin said he met an SS agent (TPOTP, page 572).

After this encounter, he went back to his office, and came back to the Depository at 12:50. At that time, he had used 25 feet of his 50-foot film. He started taking more film. He then thought he had finished the roll just to discover that only 25 feet had been taken because there was a crimp in the film, something he had never experienced before. (TPOTP, page 573). He remained at Dealey Plaza until 4PM, talking to  people.

 

If so, that would make it 20+ minutes after the assassination

 

Below is Lovelady and his wife confirming to the HSCA that it's him in the still photo of the Martin film;

Edited April 17, 2019 by Tony Krome

[Ron Bulman]

1 hour ago, Tony Krome said:

Is Groden referring to this film?

A home movie, shot in colour by John Martin, was rediscovered in the 1970s. The film shows a crowd of people outside the main entrance of the TSBD a few minutes after the assassination. One of the people is unmistakeably Billy Lovelady. He is wearing a long–sleeved check shirt with red squares and white and blue horizontal and vertical stripes.

 

JOHN MARTIN

58-year-old John Martin filmed the motorcade on Main turning on Houston Street, and on Elm Street. The headshot is not shown as Martin stopped filming. That will be clear when you see the video. But the film shows crowd movement after the shots and the motorcade cars traveling down toward the underpass. He ran up the grassy knoll where he met, he was later told, a man of the Treasury Department. (The Pictures of the Pain, page 571). He remained around the Depository for about 10 minutes. In an FBI interview, Martin said he met an SS agent (TPOTP, page 572).

After this encounter, he went back to his office, and came back to the Depository at 12:50. At that time, he had used 25 feet of his 50-foot film. He started taking more film. He then thought he had finished the roll just to discover that only 25 feet had been taken because there was a crimp in the film, something he had never experienced before. (TPOTP, page 573). He remained at Dealey Plaza until 4PM, talking to  people.

 

If so, that would make it 20+ minutes after the assassination

 

Below is Lovelady and his wife confirming to the HSCA that it's him in the still photo of the Martin film;

I don't remember ever seeing this before.  Thanks.  The cop does push the Black guy down through the door, which no one else seems to care about but the other Black guy, does he not?  Why?

[Tony Krome]

1 hour ago, Ron Bulman said:

I don't remember ever seeing this before.  Thanks.  The cop does push the Black guy down through the door, which no one else seems to care about but the other Black guy, does he not?  Why?

Good pick up, it certainly looks like a coloured male gaining entry. Now, if we can work out who that guy is, it'll be helpful. As far as know, they weren't letting anyone in that wasn't part of the investigation, but he looks to be one of the coloured TSBD workers.

[Tony Krome]

If you go to the 1:25 mark of this Hughes film, you can see another person let in before the coloured guy seen in the Martin film. You can also see a guy with a hard hat in the doorway.

 

Hard Hat guy ... Brennan??

Mr. McCLOY. Then when you got to the officer he took you to a Secret Service man, and then the Secret Service man and you were on the steps of the depository? 
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. 
Well, we talked at the car, and then when these two colored guys came down the stairway onto the street, I pointed to them, and identified them as being the two that was in the floor below that floor. And then Mr. Sorrels, I think, had to give some orders to someone in the book store. He walked me up the steps, and I stood on the top landing. 

Mr. DULLES. Did you give any estimate was it a matter of 5 minutes, 6 minutes, 7 minutes? In general, how long did it take you from the time that you left where you were protecting yourself to the time you were on the front steps? What order of magnitude? 10 minutes? 
Mr. BRENNAN. No; it was a shorter time than that. 

If the Hughes footage depicts Brennan at the top landing at the doorway, the guys walking up might be 2 of the coloured guys that Brennan said he identified earlier ... "these two colored guys came down the stairway onto the street" who "being the two that was in the floor below that floor"

You can see hard hat guy clearly on the landing at 1:37 after he had stepped out of the way to allow the coloured guy through

Here's a side by side Martin & Hughes gif. You can just make out hard hat guy in the shadows in the Martin film and make him out clearly in Hughes;

 

Brennan: "He (Sorrels) walked me up the steps, and I stood on the top landing"

Edited April 17, 2019 by Tony Krome

[Sandy Larsen]

19 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Some people believe that the Warren Commission altered Vickie Adams’ testimony to fabricate her encounter with Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor by the rear staircase and freight elevators.  This was done, these researchers believe, so it would appear that she arrived on the first floor later than she estimated, giving time for “Lee Harvey Oswald” to run down the stairs unseen and unheard.  This is not an unreasonable argument, especially after Barry Ernest interviewed Vickie Adams decades later and she denied seeing the two men.

John A. and I have argued that if her Shelley/Lovelady encounter was added later to her testimony by the WC, it is very odd that Joseph Ball questioned both men about seeing her on the first floor, and that these questions were asked just a couple of hours after Adams’ testimony.  There is another problem with the altered testimony theory.

If Warren Commission attorneys invented her encounter with Shelley and Lovelady to change the timeline of her climb down the stairs, why didn’t they change her statement that it took her “I would say no longer than a minute at the most” to run from the fourth floor window to the first floor via the back staircase.  If the WC attorneys were inventing this whole encounter,  why on earth wouldn’t they alter her “no longer than a minute” estimate in the first place?  That was their whole problem right there.  It doesn’t make sense.

 

There's a very good reason the coverup team used Shelley and Lovelady to discredit the timing in Vickie Adam's testimony, rather than just altering the timing itself. It's because there were THREE witnesses who saw Vickie Adam's descend the stairs early, when Oswald was supposed to have gone down to the second floor. Vicki herself, her coworker Sandra Styles, and her boss Dorothy Ann Garner. The coverup team undoubtedly was nervous about word getting out that Oswald couldn't have come down the steps when it was said he did, and having these three women's testimonies to back it up. So rather than simply changing the timing in Vickie's testimony, they introduced two fake witnesses -- Shelley and Lovelady -- who they intended to use to discredit the timing of all three witnesses. Killing three birds with one stone, so to speak.

It apparently was a bit of a surprise that not only did Dorothy Garner corroborate Vickie's testimony (that she came down quickly), but was so specific in her testimony as to say that she saw Vickie go down the steps first, and Truly and officer Baker to go up the steps afterward. (Remember Officer Baker's supposed "mad dash" that was necessary for he and Truly to confront Oswald on the second floor so quickly?)

The coverup team was so concerned about Dorothy Garner's testimony that they made a note of it in writing... though I'm sure they handled it privately:

 

 

I personally don't believe that the coverup team altered Vickie Adams' testimony. I believe that they put a great deal of pressure on Shelley, Lovelady, and Vickie to lie about their "encounter" and that Vickie caved, testifying that it happened. (Shelley and Lovelady caved considerably, but stopped short of testifying they saw Vickie.) I believe that Vickie went into denial  of her false testimony and ultimately left researcher Barry Earnest with the conclusion that the WC altered her testimony.

BTW, this was all done to support the second-floor Baker/Oswald encounter, which was created to cover up Oswald's alibi of being on the front steps during the shooting.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

6 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Is Groden referring to this film?

A home movie, shot in colour by John Martin, was rediscovered in the 1970s. The film shows a crowd of people outside the main entrance of the TSBD a few minutes after the assassination. One of the people is unmistakeably Billy Lovelady. He is wearing a long–sleeved check shirt with red squares and white and blue horizontal and vertical stripes.

 

JOHN MARTIN

58-year-old John Martin filmed the motorcade on Main turning on Houston Street, and on Elm Street. The headshot is not shown as Martin stopped filming. That will be clear when you see the video. But the film shows crowd movement after the shots and the motorcade cars traveling down toward the underpass. He ran up the grassy knoll where he met, he was later told, a man of the Treasury Department. (The Pictures of the Pain, page 571). He remained around the Depository for about 10 minutes. In an FBI interview, Martin said he met an SS agent (TPOTP, page 572).

After this encounter, he went back to his office, and came back to the Depository at 12:50. At that time, he had used 25 feet of his 50-foot film. He started taking more film. He then thought he had finished the roll just to discover that only 25 feet had been taken because there was a crimp in the film, something he had never experienced before. (TPOTP, page 573). He remained at Dealey Plaza until 4PM, talking to  people.

 

If so, that would make it 20+ minutes after the assassination

 

Below is Lovelady and his wife confirming to the HSCA that it's him in the still photo of the Martin film;

 

 

I (currently) believe that everybody has been fooled by these films supposedly showing Lovelady. This guy is not Lovelady.

I believe that Lovelady wore a red and white vertically striped shirt that day. That is what he told the FBI. (Source) Some say that the FBI was just confused by the photos they took of Lovelady wearing the red and white striped shirt. Perhaps... but then how does one explain Billy himself telling the press that the red and white striped shirt is what he wore? (Source: New York Herald Tribune, May 24, 1964. Commission Exhibit 1408, Volume 22) Why would Billy say that? I say because it is true. His mind would be changed by the FBI later on.

Years later Lovelady was photographed with the red PLAID shirt on. Problem is, this one doesn't have a pocket. The one shown the DPD office film DOES have a pocket. The shirt Lovelady wore for the photograph was nearly identical, but not a perfect match.

Forum member Bill Miller pointed out another difference that I hadn't noticed... the white stripes on one shirt are noticeably wider than on the other shirt.

I have a theory that explains the shirt weirdness but I'm not ready to go public with it. My theory explains how the Oswald alibi coverup (i.e the 2nd floor encounter) was concocted.