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“The lights all went out,” and the elevators stopped while JFK was murdered. Shelley and Lovelady were near the bottom of the back staircase, by the electrical panel... and Vickie Adams saw them ... until everyone's story changed...


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Jim, 

Who do you have controlling power to the elevators approx 10 minutes after the assassination?

(I'm referring to Mooney on the WEST elevator and Adams at the passenger elevator)

We know that before Mooney/Adams, the elevators were working fine as per Truly/Baker/Sawyer

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Tony,

I can’t put an exact time on the second instance, but it seems as if the electricity to the elevators was shut off on two different occasions that afternoon.  Once, of course, during a few minutes around the time the shots rang out, and then again several minutes later, as noted by Adams and others.  There is no evidence I’m aware of for this, but my bet is that the DPD or some of the Feds may have ordered the elevators stopped that second time to prevent escapes, but I’m just guessing.

Do you have anything more specific?

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3 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Sandy,

I thought you believed that the WC added the Shelley/Lovelady sighting to Vickie Adams’ testimony in an attempt to push the encounter later and give “Oswald” time to descend the back staircase from the 6th floor?  Have I read that incorrectly?


Jim,

I can see how some confusion arose. Let me explain what I believe.

First, I believe that Vickie did NOT see Shelley and Lovelady. And that they didn't see her. Second, I believe that certain people within the WC wanted Vickie to testify that she saw Shelley and Lovelady in order to push her arrival at the bottom of the stairs later, to allow time for Oswald to descend.

There are two possible ways the WC could have gotten what they wanted. Either pressure Vickie into giving false testimony, or alter her testimony after she had testified.

If I understand correctly, Barry Ernest came to the conclusion that the WC altered her testimony. Which is what I used to believe. However, I now think it's more likely that Vickie was pressured into giving false testimony, and that she caved in to that pressure. Decades later when she talked to Barry Ernest, she either forgot that she gave false testimony, or she was embarrassed that she had and so she denied having ever testified to seeing Lovelady and  Shelley. If I am right about this, that would explain why there are multiple documents stating that Vickie said that she saw Lovelady and Shelley. She lied to the FBI and to the WC.

 

3 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

But if you planned to put false words into Ms. Adams’ mouth, why would you ask the two subjects to confirm the falsehood unless you had a secret handshake agreement with them to lie, which apparently the WC didn’t have.

 

I believe that it was the FBI who was putting pressure on Vickie, Lovelady, Shelley, and Baker to lie. I believe that Mr. Ball wasn't aware of this. He merely read the FBI report that said Vickie saw Lovelady and Shelley. And so he asked all three about that alleged encounter, not really knowing what their responses would be. But expecting Vickie's response to be that she saw Lovelady and Shelley, because that is what he had seen in the FBI report about her.

 

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Jim,

The time can be worked out by referring to radio transcripts for Adams. She heard via the police radio outside the front of the TSBD that shots possibly came from the 4th or 5th floor, so at that point she went back inside. Mooney had to wait for instructions from Decker before he moved to the TSBD. Sawyer has to descend on the Passenger elevator which is after 12:38pm before the power is cut, Truly/Baker has to descend on the EAST elevator before the power is cut.

The time of the power cut to both the WEST elevator and the Passenger elevator is approx 12:40pm

The reason I'm asking, is because you imply Shelley/Lovelady were earlier standing at an electrical panel flipping switches.

If that is the case, do you have the same pair involved at the same electrical panel approx 10 minutes later?

 

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Sandy….

Ah… I didn’t understand your position.  We agree wholeheartedly that the FBI is the most reliable disinformation agency in this whole, sordid affair.  But it’s hard to know who to distrust even nearly as much as the FBI here… but I’ll try to get back to you tomorrow.

Tony….

Thanks.  Before we can proceed, please see John A’s case presented on my website that the FBI time stamps on the so-called Dictabelt “recordings” of the DPD radio broadcasts have been totally falsified.  Just go to the link here:

https://harveyandlee.net/Tippit/Tippit.html

and scroll down to the heading: “The FBI alters the Dallas Police dictabelts”

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I have several different transcripts, and they are all different, so yes, I'm aware

But any radio discrepancies won't affect the 12:40pm power cut time frame, Truly/Baker/Sawyer still have to ride perfectly functional elevators up and down before the power is cut

So my question still stands

 

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25 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

But do you think the FBI altered the time stamps?

In many WC witness testimonies, the witnesses are asked to confirm if what they have stated on their FBI statements is correct. Quite a few answer in the negative. This may imply alteration by the FBI, so altering radio transcripts, to suit for example, the Tippit scene, is possible. Craig mentioned 1:06pm, and that was after a messenger ran up the stairs, so I have that deal going down a few minutes before that.

 

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17 hours ago, John Butler said:

The question to ask (even though this is off topic) is why didn't they film when they were on Houston Street waiting to make the turn?  Another might be where is the film from Camera Car 1 & 2?

Wiegman actually started filming after the first explosion which he thought was a "cherry bomb". Wiegman started filming approx 3 seconds BEFORE the final shot. He told Richard Trask that he was actually out of the car filming and running by the time of the third shot.

After my previous post about timing, I realised I had all this in my old research notes, so I dug it all out.

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Tony, 

Just a minute or two after the shots, both freight elevators appeared to be stopped on the fifth floor when Truly pushed the button to call an elevator.  Assuming it was Truly who ordered Shelley to stay by the elevators on the first floor, Shelley probably remained there until more cops arrived.  During that time, he or Lovelady must have restarted the power to the elevators, including the front passenger car, which would enable the passenger elevator escape according to John A’s theory.  When more cops arrived at the back of the first floor, Truly probably shut off the power again, showing the police that people on the upper floors would have to remain on those floors, and he then accompanied some of the cops up the stairs.

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12 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

If I understand correctly, Barry Ernest came to the conclusion that the WC altered her testimony. Which is what I used to believe. However, I now think it's more likely that Vickie was pressured into giving false testimony, and that she caved in to that pressure. Decades later when she talked to Barry Ernest, she either forgot that she gave false testimony, or she was embarrassed that she had and so she denied having ever testified to seeing Lovelady and  Shelley. If I am right about this, that would explain why there are multiple documents stating that Vickie said that she saw Lovelady and Shelley. She lied to the FBI and to the WC.

That at least fits some of the known facts, but it sounds kind of unlikely to me.  Can you really forget that kind of thing?  Mr. Ernest did write (and tell John A. during their phone interview) that Ms. Adams seemed “uneasy” about the whole Shelley and Lovelady business, but if she was really pressured into the false sighting, why wasn’t she also pressured into delaying her flight down the stairs?  That was the real problem, and that would have been a lot easier and cleaner than inventing the false sighting.

This belated correction also doesn’t explain who the two white men were by the elevators and electric panels who were seen but unchallenged by Baker.  If they weren’t TSBD employees OK’d by Truly, why didn’t Baker challenge them?  Clearly, the WC attorneys didn’t want to know who they were because they didn’t ask Truly to ID them.

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4 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Wiegman actually started filming after the first explosion which he thought was a "cherry bomb". Wiegman started filming approx 3 seconds BEFORE the final shot. He told Richard Trask that he was actually out of the car filming and running by the time of the third shot.

After my previous post about timing, I realised I had all this in my old research notes, so I dug it all out.

Wiegman couldn't have started filming 3 seconds before the final shot.  He says that he left the vehicle as the 3rd shot occurred.  He didn't say anything about filming.  There is no film to indicate he began filming on Houston Street about at the middle of the County Records building or at the SW end of the building.  I'm not sure where he was exactly.  That is why I estimate 3 to 5 seconds to get to the SW corner of Elm.

He says in Trask he needed to get to the corner to see what was going on there.  Trask contradicts Wiegman by saying on page 374 that he begins filming as the crowd in front of the TSBD reacts to noise.  Trask got that wrong if Wiegman is hearing 3 shots on Houston Street.  That may be where the 3 seconds comes from.  I don't particularly care for Pictures of Pain.  What I have read seems biased toward the WC and the official story.

The opening scene in Weigman is shown on page 374.  It is taken from the SW corner of Elm and Houston.  There is no film taken on Houston Street that is available.  The opening scene corresponds to the 8th second of the film.  The first 8 seconds are blank or black screen.  This is in the Groden version which most others are based on.  Maybe Groden thought 8 seconds of the two vehicles shown not moving, the Mayor's Car and the National Press Pool Car, just didn't do anything to enhance the film.  I don't know why Groden did what he did.  Just speculating.  The two vehicles mentioned were stopped in that position for some period of time.  8 seconds is not that long. 

I had missed this earlier.  Wiegman said the motorcade had stopped.  This indicates someone was out there to stop the motorcade just after the presidential and vice-presidential parties were leaving the intersection in front of the TSBD.  This confirms what Mrs. Earle Cabell said about the motorcade being stopped.  Someone had to release them and then hold the Camera Cars for a length of time that can be somewhere between 30 and 48 seconds.

It is my opinion that someone was ordered to stop the motorcade just after the Johnson security vehicle passed by.  This would keep all of the press and camera folks from filming the events happening directly after the assassination.  Wiegman beat the game by running to the SW corner of Elm and began filming there.  This calls into question Officer Barrett's story sense the Smith boys had run to the Grassy Knoll.

The Dallas Police was a paramilitary organization not a military one.  They don't seem very well trained with several officers deserting their posts and not protecting those they were assigned to protect.  Not many stayed with their assigned duty station.

 

 

Edited by John Butler
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6 hours ago, John Butler said:

I had missed this earlier.  Wiegman said the motorcade had stopped.  This indicates someone was out there to stop the motorcade just after the presidential and vice-presidential parties were leaving the intersection in front of the TSBD.  This confirms what Mrs. Earle Cabell said about the motorcade being stopped.  Someone had to release them and then hold the Camera Cars for a length of time that can be somewhere between 30 and 48 seconds.

She means the whole motorcade stopped;

Mr. HUBERT. That was when your car at least had come to a standstill? 
Mrs. CABELL. Every car in the motorcade had come to a standstill. 

The 4 cars in immediately in front of hers included the JFK Limo which was seen by many to slow/stop, so she was referring to the knock on effect caused by the JFK Limo

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2 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

She means the whole motorcade stopped;

Mr. HUBERT. That was when your car at least had come to a standstill? 
Mrs. CABELL. Every car in the motorcade had come to a standstill. 

The 4 cars in immediately in front of hers included the JFK Limo which was seen by many to slow/stop, so she was referring to the knock on effect caused by the JFK Limo

Could be.  But, what kept her in position when the other cars sped off.  Their is imagery in Wiegman showing the other vehicles had cleared the plaza while they are going down Elm.  Wiegman had to have time to run to the SW corner of Elm and film the vehicle sitting still.  

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40 minutes ago, John Butler said:

Could be.  But, what kept her in position when the other cars sped off.  Their is imagery in Wiegman showing the other vehicles had cleared the plaza while they are going down Elm.  Wiegman had to have time to run to the SW corner of Elm and film the vehicle sitting still.  

I'm not following you

When Wiegman ran down Elm St, the JFK Limo had not even gone under the Triple Underpass

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