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“The lights all went out,” and the elevators stopped while JFK was murdered. Shelley and Lovelady were near the bottom of the back staircase, by the electrical panel... and Vickie Adams saw them ... until everyone's story changed...


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6 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Jim,

Do you have any indication that power to the elevators was disrupted prior to Baker's TSBD entry?

As far as I'm aware, the only freight elevator Truly could have called for was the WEST elevator as it was the push button one and it would have come down if the gates were closed. The EAST elevator was manually operated.

The first thing Truly would have done is depress the button, however, that action did not activate the elevator, so he yelled up the shaft assuming someone could close the gates.

If as you say the power was cut to the elevator, the indicator lights on the button panel would not have lit up as Truly pressed the buttons, so my question is, why would Truly yell up the shaft if he could see there was a power problem?

 

 

Because it never happened that's why

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Geneva Hine’s testimony seems to indicate that at least some of the power in the building went out just as the motorcade approached (emphasis added).

Mr. BALL. Were you alone then at this time?
Miss HINE. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you stay at your desk?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir: I was alone until the lights all went out and the phones
became dead
because the motorcade was coming near us and no one was calling
so I got up and thought I could see it from the east window in our office. 

From the Adams statement to Leavelle (emphasis added):

The elevator was not running and there was no one on the stairs.  I went down to the first floor.  I saw Mr. Shelly and another employee named Bill. The freight elevator had not moved, and I still did not see anyone on the stairs.

I ran out the back door of the depository and around to the front.... No one had surrounded the building at that time. I went back into the building and to the passenger elevator, but the power was off.  I went to the back to the freight elevator.  There was two plainclothes men on it.  However, the power on it was also turned off. 

From Officer Baker's WC Testimony (emphasis added):

Mr. BAKER - And he was trying to get that service elevator down there.
Mr. BELIN - All right. What did you see Mr. Truly do?
Mr. BAKER - He ran over there and pushed the button to get it down.
Mr. BELIN - Did the elevator come down after he pushed the button?
Mr. BAKER - No, sir; it didn't.

Mr. BELIN - Then what did he do?
Mr. BAKER - He hollered for it, said, "Bring that elevator down here."
Mr. BELIN - How many times did he holler, to the best of your recollection?
Mr. BAKER - It seemed like he did it twice.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
Then what did he do?
Mr. BAKER - I said let's take the stairs.

Edited by Jim Hargrove
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3 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Geneva Hine’s testimony seems to indicate that at least some of the power in the building went out just as the motorcade approached (emphasis added).

Mr. BALL. Were you alone then at this time?
Miss HINE. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you stay at your desk?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir: I was alone until the lights all went out and the phones
became dead
because the motorcade was coming near us and no one was calling
so I got up and thought I could see it from the east window in our office. 

From the Adams statement to Leavelle (emphasis added):

The elevator was not running and there was no one on the stairs.  I went down to the first floor.  I saw Mr. Shelly and another employee named Bill. The freight elevator had not moved, and I still did not see anyone on the stairs.

I ran out the back door of the depository and around to the front.... No one had surrounded the building at that time. I went back into the building and to the passenger elevator, but the power was off.  I went to the back to the freight elevator.  There was two plainclothes men on it.  However, the power on it was also turned off. 

From Officer Baker's WC Testimony (emphasis added):

Mr. BAKER - And he was trying to get that service elevator down there.
Mr. BELIN - All right. What did you see Mr. Truly do?
Mr. BAKER - He ran over there and pushed the button to get it down.
Mr. BELIN - Did the elevator come down after he pushed the button?
Mr. BAKER - No, sir; it didn't.

Mr. BELIN - Then what did he do?
Mr. BAKER - He hollered for it, said, "Bring that elevator down here."
Mr. BELIN - How many times did he holler, to the best of your recollection?
Mr. BAKER - It seemed like he did it twice.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
Then what did he do?
Mr. BAKER - I said let's take the stairs.

How long was the power off?  1 or 2 or 3 minutes or more?  Vickie Adams estimated 4 or 5 minutes and when you combine what she said above with what she said on the 11-24-63 FBI statement's second page that is a significant length of time.  If the power was off for 4 or 5 minutes and the elevators are not running and no one is going down the stairs then that is enough time for people to make the passenger elevator escape when the elevator power came back on.  Or, since circuit panels control power to the various parts of the building selectively then the power to the passenger elevator could have been turned on briefly for the escape and then turned back off as Vickie Adams noticed about 4 or 5 minutes later.

This indicates that there was a larger assassination team in the TSBD than just two men sighted on the sixth floor.  Danny Arce or someone who looks amazingly like Danny Arce is out on Houston Street with a radio as seen in Altgens 6 coordinating something.  How many other members of the 6th floor plywood floor laying team were members of the team and/or became suspects later and taken to the police station?  Hence, there testimony could be adjusted any way the authorities wanted.

vickie-adams-11-24-63-3a.jpg  

  

Edited by John Butler
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John,

I think the power to the elevator and perhaps the office space was cut off briefly on two separate occasions.  The first was just before the motorcade arrived in front of the building, as noted by Geneva Hine.  That probably ensured that the passenger elevator would remain on the fourth floor so that the real assassins on the 6th floor could make their escape through the shaft on the fifth floor.  That same partial power outage was probably still in effect when Truly tried to call the elevator.

But it seems to have lasted just a couple of minutes after which elevator power was briefly restored (which would allow the 6th floor assassins to go down to the second floor, according to John’s theory, where one of them got off).  A short time after Truly and Baker went up the back stairs, the power to the elevator(s) was shut off a second time, surely by Shelley, ostensibly in order to prevent an escape as more police arrived.

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I think so to.  Please take a look at this next post and assess what its weaknesses are.

Jack Daugherty and the elevators

Jack Daugherty seems to move up and down the elevators at will.  He does so in time periods where the power in the building is supposedly off.  Geneva Hines said the light went off just as the motorcade was approaching. 

Jack says he went up to the 6th floor at 12:45 (obviously a mistake intentional or otherwise).  He said he didn’t see anyone there.  As soon as he got there he went back down to the 5th floor and there he heard shots.  How did he move between floors if not by elevator?  The power to the elevator could have still on when he went to the 6th floor.  But, as Geneva Hines reports the power was off while Jack was on the 5th floor hearing shots.  He doesn’t state how he moved between floors.

Jack then decides to go to the 1st floor.  He doesn’t mention how he does that.  The power is off unless someone is helping Jack use the elevator to reach the 1st floor.  He doesn’t take the passenger elevator or he would have been noticed by Dorothy Garner or Elsie Dorman.  Or, he walks down the steps and may have run into Truly and Baker.  But, Baker’s description of the 3rd or 4th floor male encounter rules him out.  So, he either takes the elevator or uses the stairway before Truly and Baker move up the steps.  This must be after Adams and Styles go down the stairs.  The problem with that is Dorothy Garden didn’t hear anyone on the steps until Truly and Baker go up.

Is this why folks think Daugherty took an elevator even though the power was off according to Geneva Hines?

After talking to Eddie Piper he said he went back up to the 6th floor by elevator.  While he was there he didn’t see anybody.  On two trips to the upper floors he doesn’t see or hear anyone on the steps, or 5th or 6th floor.  This second trip to the 6th floor is when the power is said to be off.  If this happened during the Truly / Baker walk up the steps then Baker and Truly would have heard someone using the elevator.  They don’t mention anything like that.

Jack Daugherty is a suspicious character who is judged by many to be a moron based on some of this statements at a WC hearing:

Mr. Dougherty. Well, of course, a year or so, you might say — just work

in grocery stores until I was 19 and volunteered for the Armed Services in

October — October 24, 1942.

 

Mr. Ball. How long were you in the service?

 

Mr. Dougherty. 2 years, 1 month, 17 days, to be exact.

 

Mr. Ball. And you were discharged from the Service, then, after the War,

was it?

 

Mr. Dougherty. Yes, sir.

The war didn’t end until the following year in about April, 1945 in Europe and later for the Japanese.

And, here is a fine example of southern humor.

Mr. Ball. Did you have any active service?

 

Mr. Dougherty. Well, no — I volunteered for active service, but they said

you couldn’t very well volunteer — you have to be drafted, so they said, they told

me at the time.

 

Mr. Ball. Did you ever leave the United States during the War?

 

Mr. Dougherty. Oh, yes.

 

Mr. Ball. Where did you go?

 

Mr. Dougherty. Well, I was stationed, oh, for about a year up in Indiana

up there — Seymour, Ind.

And,

Mr. Ball. What did you do after you got out of the Army?

 

Mr. Dougherty. Well, jobs were pretty scarce about the time I got out of

the service, so I just went from place to place and applied and put my applica-

tion in, so I started over here at the Texas School Book Depository and put my

application in there and I got it through the Suburban Employment Agency,

and I been working there ever since.

 

Mr. Ball. And that was when — in 1940, was it, you started to work at the

Texas School Book Depository?

 

Mr. Dougherty. September 17, 1940.

 

Mr. Ball. 1940 what?

You can see why some people though Jack was a light weight in his thinking.  It is the perfect cover for someone involved the assassination. 

If you look at Jack’s handwritten statement to the Sheriff’s Office of 11-22-63 you will see Jack is not what the educational folk would classify as a moron or what is known today as a Special Ed. classification.  Or even, in other terms appropriate for the times a Dull Normal as Forrest Gump was portrayed.

Definely a suspicious character.

Edited by John Butler
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Yeah, at some point when Truly and Baker were climbing the stairs, Dougherty used the west elevator to go from the fifth floor to the first.  Baker or Truly or both (can’t remember) noted that the west elevator had left the fifth floor and gone down to the first.  Therefore, the first power outage had to be brief, and that was certainly by design if John A’s theory is correct.  Just enough time to take the shots and climb down into the passenger elevator.

Wasn’t it Dougherty, though, who noted LHO wasn’t carrying a brown paper sack into the TSBD that fateful morning?  Credit him for that!

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12 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

 

From Officer Baker's WC Testimony (emphasis added):

Mr. BAKER - And he was trying to get that service elevator down there.
Mr. BELIN - All right. What did you see Mr. Truly do?
Mr. BAKER - He ran over there and pushed the button to get it down.
Mr. BELIN - Did the elevator come down after he pushed the button?
Mr. BAKER - No, sir; it didn't.

Mr. BELIN - Then what did he do?
Mr. BAKER - He hollered for it, said, "Bring that elevator down here."
Mr. BELIN - How many times did he holler, to the best of your recollection?
Mr. BAKER - It seemed like he did it twice.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
Then what did he do?
Mr. BAKER - I said let's take the stairs.

To be clear, you have Truly pressing a button on an unlit dead panel?

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18 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Because it never happened that's why

The whole power outage never happened?  I'm beginning to see that as a possibility via your latter link though I've been convinced of control of the elevators by cutting their ower on and off for years.

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7 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Thanks.  "He (Truly) cannot say that the West elevator was not on the sixth floor at this time".  The time being while he and Baker rode the East elevator from the 5th floor to the 7th and searched it.  As all know the W elevator was not present when they got to the 5th floor and took the East one up.

The East elevator was totally operator controlled.  It didn't go up or down without somebody on board.  You couldn't call it from another floor.  

The West elevator could be called but if the gate was left open it would not move.

I.E. the West elevator could have been stuck purposefully on the sixth floor until needed, by leaving the gate open.  As the east elevator could have been purposefully un manned to keep it out of use.

No need to cut the power off.  Elevators controlled.

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8 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Thanks.  "He (Truly) cannot say that the West elevator was not on the sixth floor at this time".  The time being while he and Baker rode the East elevator from the 5th floor to the 7th and searched it.  As all know the W elevator was not present when they got to the 5th floor and took the East one up.

The East elevator was totally operator controlled.  It didn't go up or down without somebody on board.  You couldn't call it from another floor.  

The West elevator could be called but if the gate was left open it would not move.

I.E. the West elevator could have been stuck purposefully on the sixth floor until needed, by leaving the gate open.  As the east elevator could have been purposefully un manned to keep it out of use.

No need to cut the power off.  Elevators controlled.

The whole elevators thing is a complete mess. You will not get much further than some serious speculating which will not do any good whatsoever.

Edited by Bart Kamp
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8 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

The whole power outage never happened?  I'm beginning to see that as a possibility via your latter link though I've been convinced of control of the elevators by cutting their ower on and off for years.

What I meant is that what Truly mentioned with regards his actions in front and on the elevators.

The story was invented to give Truly and Baker some time as they would have been on the second floor in no time, way before Oswald's so called timed descent.

Edited by Bart Kamp
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Miss HINE. Yes, sir: I was alone until the lights all went out and the phones
became dead 
because the motorcade was coming near us and no one was calling
so I got up and thought I could see it from the east window in our office. 

The lights went out and the phones went dead in Geneva Hine's second floor office just before the motorcade arrived, clearly indicating at least parts of the power system in the building went out.  The phone system in her office required building electricity to operate properly. 

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And, I suppose we have no idea whether the freight elevators and the passenger elevators were on separate circuits?  It strikes me that having both elevator systems on the same circuit would make for an easily overloaded circuit.

Just a thought...

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