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“The lights all went out,” and the elevators stopped while JFK was murdered. Shelley and Lovelady were near the bottom of the back staircase, by the electrical panel... and Vickie Adams saw them ... until everyone's story changed...


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Paul,

Yes, unfortunately we don't know much about the wiring.  As a builder, though, John A. was pretty certain that when the second, third, and fourth floors were remodeled as offices and new wiring was installed, there would most likely by an entirely new panel built for the new circuits.  There are at least two electrical boxes on the first floor of the TSBD.

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Many witnesses saw (and heard) activity on the sixth floor just prior to and during the assassination of JFK.  Quite a few also said they saw two men on the sixth floor.  Among the witnesses were Carolyn Walther, Ruby Henderson, Ronald Fischer, Robert Edwin Edwards, Tom Dillard, Howard Brennan and a number of witnesses from the county jail across the street. 

John A. started his most recent write-up by using a process of elimination in trying to figure out how anyone was able to escape the sixth floor without being seen or heard soon after the shots rang out.

If you believe the man we know as Lee Harvey Oswald was not on the sixth floor at the time of the assassination, how do you explain how the man or men who were there got down without being noticed?

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45 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Many witnesses saw (and heard) activity on the sixth floor just prior to and during the assassination of JFK.  Quite a few also said they saw two men on the sixth floor.  Among the witnesses were Carolyn Walther, Ruby Henderson, Ronald Fischer, Robert Edwin Edwards, Tom Dillard, Howard Brennan and a number of witnesses from the county jail across the street. 

John A. started his most recent write-up by using a process of elimination in trying to figure out how anyone was able to escape the sixth floor without being seen or heard soon after the shots rang out.

If you believe the man we know as Lee Harvey Oswald was not on the sixth floor at the time of the assassination, how do you explain how the man or men who were there got down without being noticed?

Jim,

My explanation is as follows.  Bart Kamp is right about speculation.  This is speculation.  Speculation based on someone or more not wanting to be seen leaving the TSBD moments after the assassination.  There could have been non-TSBD employees involved or outsiders related to the folks of the TSBD.

Possible illicit entrance into the Passenger Elevator

tsbd-flooring-and-access-to-passenger-el

The montage above illustrates how the passenger elevator could be entered from the 5th floor.  The elevator shaft was on the east wall of the TSBD at the second set of windows moving north on the Houston Street side.

The left-hand photo of the Sniper’s Nest shows that the original 2 x 6 planking was still there and on the east face of the building facing Houston Street.  The 6th floor plywood floor layers had not gotten to that area.

The right-hand photo of the 6th floor shows what the original planking would look like from one floor down on the 5th floor ceiling.

  1. To make an entrance into the elevator shaft one would need simple tools such as a skill saw, a pry bar, a hammer, and perhaps a few nails for re-nailing the cut boards.

  2. The left hand photo shows a red line representing the distance one would have to cut to have an entrance into the elevator shaft.  This would be approximately 6 planks, about 30 inches, or whatever distance was there between the support beams running north / south.

  3. The cut in the 2 x 6 planks would be made in the center of the wooden beam the 2 x 6 planks were nailed to.  This distance can be easily measured based on what one sees on the 5th floor.

  4. This entrance could be prepared the day before and hidden by book boxes.  It could be prepared at night with the help of TSBD janitors such as Eddie Piper or, the preparers could wait until his shift was over at about 2 o’clock.

  5. The cut boards could be left nailed or the boards could be pried up and the nails removed and the boards replaced and the cuts could be hidden by boxes.

  6. One would need a key for the elevator escape hatch if necessary.  One would need a key to a second floor office such as Ochus Campbell and maybe a key to the fire escape door if one was going to leave by the fire escape. 

  7. I mention the fire escape because it is one of two ways to leave the TSBD.  The other is through exits on the 1st floor.

  8. One could take the passenger elevator to the basement and then exit by the 1st floor.  I don’t think anyone would pay attention to a familiar face coming up from the basement but, someone might notice a stranger.  The same problem exists for the escapees taking the passenger elevator to the 1st floor and then exiting the building from there.  One would have to pass all the folks at the entrance and those out in front of the entrance.  It is either that or walk across the entire 1st floor to a rear entrance of the TSBD.   

  9. Establishing an entrance into the passenger elevator shaft is a simple carpenter’s job and could be done in less than 5 minutes.

  10. The only problem with this speculation is that if the elevator shaft was an enclosed with a metal ceiling or some other type of ceiling that would require extra work.

Edited by John Butler
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19 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Paul,

Yes, unfortunately we don't know much about the wiring.  As a builder, though, John A. was pretty certain that when the second, third, and fourth floors were remodeled as offices and new wiring was installed, there would most likely by an entirely new panel built for the new circuits.  There are at least two electrical boxes on the first floor of the TSBD.

As a builder myself, I think it's highly likely that the elevator systems were on separate circuits.  This would mean that the passenger elevator could be controlled via the breakers without disconnecting power to the freight elevator system.  Additionally, the passenger circuit may have included power to some of Hines' office fixtures.

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To John B,

Your description of the possible entry into the passenger elevator shaft from the sixth floor is quite similar to John A’s theory.  We do, however, have a somewhat different view of how two men from the sixth floor got out of the building once they were in the passenger elevator.  A little background on that....

John A. writes that at least four eyewitnesses saw a man wearing dark clothing or a brown coat on the sixth floor just before or during the assassination. Even more eyewitnesses saw a man wearing a white or light-colored shirt.  Five witnesses and some county jail inmates described seeing two men on the six floor of the Book Depository moments before the shooting.

We believe the man in the white or light-colored shirt on the sixth floor was probably the same man who looked much like LHO and had been posing as LHO all over the Dallas area in the month prior to the assassination.  (At the Sports Drome Rifle Range on Oct. 26, Nov. 9, Nov. 10, and again on Nov. 17, several times creating a scene and once shooting at another guy's target; at  Morgan's Gun Shop on Nov. 2; at the Downtown Lincoln Mercury dealership also on Nov. 2, where he test drove a car at wrecklessly high speeds, saying he would soon come into enough money to buy a new car; at the Irving Furniture Mart on Nov. 6 or 7 looking for a gun part, where he was referred to the shop where Dial Ryder worked; at the Southland Hotel parking garage on Nov. 15, where he applied for a job and asked how high the Southland Building was and if it had a good view of downtown Dallas; and, of course, picked up while hitch-hiking by Ralph Leon Yates with a four foot package.)

Anyway, we believe that after the shots were fired the two men (one in a white shirt, the other in a brown jacket) walked about 15 feet to the top of the passenger elevator shaft and used a makeshift trap door to enter the passenger elevator shaft.

The white-shirted man got off the elevator on the second floor.  According to John A, his “intention was to walk down the steps to the first floor, and then leave out the rear of the building under the watchful eye of supervisor Bill Shelley. However, as he approached the hallway door leading to the stairs and lunchroom he may have heard people running up or down the stairs. He hesitated, and then opened the door immediately to his right and into the TSBD office…. He walked thru the TSBD office, unfamiliar to him and to most warehouse workers, and was last seen by Mrs. Reid when he walked out the front door of the office and into the hallway.”

The man in the brown jacket continued riding the elevator to the first floor, and went directly to the rear of the building, probably passing Shelley and Lovelady.  John wrote, “This man, wearing a brown jacket, was seen by James Worrell as he hurried out the back of the TSBD and then began walking south on Houston St. One block south this man walked past Richard Carr, who had seen this man a few minutes earlier on the 6th floor. Carr noticed this man was continually looking back over his shoulder as he was walking, and saw this man get into a Nash Rambler station wagon facing north on Record Street. Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig saw the same man, driving the Nash Rambler station wagon a few minutes later, when the station wagon stopped in front of the grassy knoll.”  We think this is where the man in the white shirt, who for a month had been impersonating the man the world knows as “Lee Harvey Oswald,” got into the Nash Rambler.

His purpose on the sixth floor was to appear to be "LHO."

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Jim,

I'm not wedded to the fire escape notion.  There is no supporting evidence of any quality.  All it does is account for the only other way to leave the TSBD.  The notion would not make a hypothesis simply because there is no way to test it.

The Oswald double on the 6th floor, possibly Lee Oswald, had to look enough like Harvey Oswald, the man killed by Jack Ruby, to fool Roger Craig, a keen detective.  There may have been more that two people there.  Possibly, a black man who Amos Euins covered for saying he was white.  He told a reporter, I believe James Underwood, that the man was black.  Amos' story shifts about a bald guy or light colored hair. 

My favorite candidate for this black man in Bonnie Ray Williams who had "white stuff" or "debris" in his hair as described by Jarmin and possibly seen by Euins as baldness.  How did he acquire the hair problem?  Getting that as dust from the building shaking from shots fired seems like an after the fact justification.  Just before the assassination, he leaves the 6th floor by the steps and joins Norman and Jarman to watch the assassination.  His role on the 5th floor was as a watchman or spotter.  He did not accompany Norman and Jarman to the 5th floor.  Norman and Jarman are not clear on how long was it before the assassination that Bonnie Ray joins them.  Bonnie Ray's story on where he was at and what he saw changed four times.  Can we expect him to be consistent on anything?

According to Jarman's testimony he was the one who parked the west elevator on the 5th floor and if he left the gate open no one would be able to use it except someone on the 5th floor.  Where is Jack Daugherty during all this?  He is not seen or mentioned by any of the three on the 5th floor.  Particularly, Bonnie Ray who goes to the 5th floor just moments before the assassination.  He may have come down from the 6th floor.  There is a possibility for Daugherty to be the clean up man on the 6th floor.  Walk to the 5th and take the elevator to the 1st floor before Truly and Baker arrive and then send it back up the 5th floor.  I also suspect Eddie Piper.  Why else would Piper and Daugherty validate each other's presence of the 1st floor?  They can at least be charged with collusion as it is defined modernly.

There is all kinds of problems with this on timing.  Why didn't Baker and Truly notice or hear the movement of the west elevator as they went up the stairs?        

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John B....

I was planning to let this thread go, but couldn’t help but wonder if anyone here thinks the dark complexioned man seen by Ruby Henderson, Johnny Powell and others on the 6th floor of the TSBD just before the assassination could be the same dark complexioned driver of the Nash Rambler seen by others on Elm.... Just asking....

 

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12 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

John B....

I was planning to let this thread go, but couldn’t help but wonder if anyone here thinks the dark complexioned man seen by Ruby Henderson, Johnny Powell and others on the 6th floor of the TSBD just before the assassination could be the same dark complexioned driver of the Nash Rambler seen by others on Elm.... Just asking....

 

Jim,

I think that a lot of people think the two are the same.  Or, at least that is the impression I get from reading about what people say about witnesses to people on the 6th floor.  Under suspicion are Lee Oswald and Malcom Wallace for various reasons.  There is a fairly good thread going back to 2005 on witnesses that saw something on the 6th floor:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/3524-witnesses-to-window-shooters/    Witness to Window Shooters

and, from that comes a good list of people that saw something: 

Greg Wagner   

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I have compiled this list of people who claim to have witnessed activity in upper floor windows of the TSBD near the time of the assassination. Are there any others I may have missed? Thank you!

  • Howard Brennan
  • Richard Carr
  • Malcom Couch
  • James Crawford
  • Tom Dillard
  • Robert Edwards
  • Amos Euins
  • Ronald Fischer
  • Ruby Henderson
  • Robert Jackson
  • John Powell
  • Jeraldean Reid
  • Arnold Rowland
  • Barbara Rowland
  • James Underwood
  • Carolyn Walter
  • James Worrell

Edited April 20, 2018 by Greg Wagner

Working on another project I have read all of the testimonies of the above but, mostly are now dim recollections.  I am going to reread those testimonies. 

If there is answer to your question it should be found in the testimonies of these witnesses and what people think to form a consensus.

I wouldn't worry about letting this thread go.  It will come back in some other form or another.  People can't seem to let go of what happened 3 minutes after the assassination involving Prayerman, escape from the TSBD, shooters on the 6th floor, what the witnesses said, what the various films show, etc.

I have posted the other project I am working on but, failed to include backup evidence for what I was saying about the witnesses.  The idea is so strange and foreign to most that the thread didn't go far.  I intend to repost that thread and include what the witnesses said and where what they said came from.  It is an interesting idea and challenges nearly everything seen and talked about occurring around the Grassy Knoll and the TSBD.  It presents a different view or alternate reality for what people saw and heard occurring in front of the TSBD.  The list of witnesses is greater than 50 witnesses saying something different occurred than what most people believe.

    

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21 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

John B....

I was planning to let this thread go, but couldn’t help but wonder if anyone here thinks the dark complexioned man seen by Ruby Henderson, Johnny Powell and others on the 6th floor of the TSBD just before the assassination could be the same dark complexioned driver of the Nash Rambler seen by others on Elm.... Just asking....

 

Jim,

Just my 2 cents worth of speculation, that is what I am thinking.  Richard Carr saw what he thought was the man on the 6th floor get into a Nash Rambler.  My assumption has been that he was the guy who ended up driving down Elm St. and picking up "Lee" Oswald (after having circled around from Record St.)  I am a big fan of John Armstrong's theory of "two" Oswalds.  And further, I think that maybe "Lee", on the 6th floor, was positioning himself to allow witnesses the chance to notice him as a further effort to incriminate the patsy.

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The white shirt/brown shirt distinction is very helpful in discriminating between the two Oswalds on the day of the assassination.  Despite the usual fog of eyewitness testimony, the shirt color is a discerning factor throughout the day, from movements inside the Book Depository, to the Tippit murder scene, and on to the theater.  There is little doubt in my mind that white-shirted Oswald was on the sixth floor to frame his counterpart (who probably often worked in his undershirt).  The man in the brown coat who Richard Carr believed was on the sixth floor and got into the Nash Rambler was surely working with the white-shirted Oswald.

Virtually all WC critics know that all over the Dallas area for a month or so prior to the assassination Classic Oswald® had been impersonated and set up by someone who looked like him.  Way back in 1967 Sylvia Meagher dissected this setup in a section of Accessories After the Fact she called “Two Oswalds.”

Some people have a harder time accepting the fact that this subterfuge didn’t end on November 20 with Yates and the hitch-hiking episode.  John A. makes a strong case that it continued right through the assassination of JFK, the Tippit murder,  and the arrest of both Oswalds in the Texas Theater.

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16 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Some people have a harder time accepting the fact that this subterfuge didn’t end on November 20 with Yates and the hitch-hiking episode.  John A. makes a strong case that it continued right through the assassination of JFK, the Tippit murder,  and the arrest of both Oswalds in the Texas Theater.

White shirted Oswald was a very busy man the day of the assassination!  I have no problem believing his movements that day were all part of the plan.

What tipped me off regarding the idea that the men on the 6th floor were not worried about being noticed, was the description of some of the witnesses regarding the movement on the 6th floor --"fiddling with the rifle scope", "sitting astride the window ledge", "seemingly relaxed" (to the extent that the witness assumed he was part of security).  Either these men were security, or they weren't worried about being noticed!  And we know they were not security.

I had a thought the other day, Jim, regarding the use of the passenger elevator for escape.  The two men wouldn't, necessarily, have had to use the elevator to access the 6th floor.  They could have been pre-planted on the 7th floor or on the rooftop (maybe in that little shack on the roof) very early in the work day (or even the night before).  They then made use of the passenger elevator for escape.

Still though, I'm wondering if Baker's earliest testimony about accosting a man on the 3rd or 4th floor, indicates that it was "Lee" alone who used the passenger elevator for escape.  It strikes me that it would have been more imperative to get "Lee" out of the building un-noticed, although it would have been important to get both men off the 6th floor immediately.

In the end, though, it's all speculation.  The testimony of the movements of people in the building after the final head shot are, to use Bart Kamps expression, a cluster fuggazie.

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On 3/16/2019 at 12:15 PM, John Butler said:

I think so to.  Please take a look at this next post and assess what its weaknesses are.

Jack Daugherty and the elevators

Jack Daugherty seems to move up and down the elevators at will.  He does so in time periods where the power in the building is supposedly off.  Geneva Hines said the light went off just as the motorcade was approaching. 

Jack says he went up to the 6th floor at 12:45 (obviously a mistake intentional or otherwise).  He said he didn’t see anyone there.  As soon as he got there he went back down to the 5th floor and there he heard shots.  How did he move between floors if not by elevator?  The power to the elevator could have still on when he went to the 6th floor.  But, as Geneva Hines reports the power was off while Jack was on the 5th floor hearing shots.  He doesn’t state how he moved between floors.

Jack then decides to go to the 1st floor.  He doesn’t mention how he does that.  The power is off unless someone is helping Jack use the elevator to reach the 1st floor.  He doesn’t take the passenger elevator or he would have been noticed by Dorothy Garner or Elsie Dorman.  Or, he walks down the steps and may have run into Truly and Baker.  But, Baker’s description of the 3rd or 4th floor male encounter rules him out.  So, he either takes the elevator or uses the stairway before Truly and Baker move up the steps.  This must be after Adams and Styles go down the stairs.  The problem with that is Dorothy Garden didn’t hear anyone on the steps until Truly and Baker go up.

Is this why folks think Daugherty took an elevator even though the power was off according to Geneva Hines?

After talking to Eddie Piper he said he went back up to the 6th floor by elevator.  While he was there he didn’t see anybody.  On two trips to the upper floors he doesn’t see or hear anyone on the steps, or 5th or 6th floor.  This second trip to the 6th floor is when the power is said to be off.  If this happened during the Truly / Baker walk up the steps then Baker and Truly would have heard someone using the elevator.  They don’t mention anything like that.

Jack Daugherty is a suspicious character who is judged by many to be a moron based on some of this statements at a WC hearing:

Mr. Dougherty. Well, of course, a year or so, you might say — just work

in grocery stores until I was 19 and volunteered for the Armed Services in

October — October 24, 1942.

 

Mr. Ball. How long were you in the service?

 

Mr. Dougherty. 2 years, 1 month, 17 days, to be exact.

 

Mr. Ball. And you were discharged from the Service, then, after the War,

was it?

 

Mr. Dougherty. Yes, sir.

The war didn’t end until the following year in about April, 1945 in Europe and later for the Japanese.

And, here is a fine example of southern humor.

Mr. Ball. Did you have any active service?

 

Mr. Dougherty. Well, no — I volunteered for active service, but they said

you couldn’t very well volunteer — you have to be drafted, so they said, they told

me at the time.

 

Mr. Ball. Did you ever leave the United States during the War?

 

Mr. Dougherty. Oh, yes.

 

Mr. Ball. Where did you go?

 

Mr. Dougherty. Well, I was stationed, oh, for about a year up in Indiana

up there — Seymour, Ind.

And,

Mr. Ball. What did you do after you got out of the Army?

 

Mr. Dougherty. Well, jobs were pretty scarce about the time I got out of

the service, so I just went from place to place and applied and put my applica-

tion in, so I started over here at the Texas School Book Depository and put my

application in there and I got it through the Suburban Employment Agency,

and I been working there ever since.

 

Mr. Ball. And that was when — in 1940, was it, you started to work at the

Texas School Book Depository?

 

Mr. Dougherty. September 17, 1940.

 

Mr. Ball. 1940 what?

You can see why some people though Jack was a light weight in his thinking.  It is the perfect cover for someone involved the assassination. 

If you look at Jack’s handwritten statement to the Sheriff’s Office of 11-22-63 you will see Jack is not what the educational folk would classify as a moron or what is known today as a Special Ed. classification.  Or even, in other terms appropriate for the times a Dull Normal as Forrest Gump was portrayed.

Definely a suspicious character.

John Butler,

About Jack Dougherty's descent from the 5th floor after hearing shots you wrote  "He doesn’t take the passenger elevator or he would have been noticed by Dorothy Garner or Elsie Dorman.  Or, he walks down the steps and may have run into Truly and Baker.  But, Baker’s description of the 3rd or 4th floor male encounter rules him out." 

Does it?

How certain are we that Baker did not encounter Dougherty? After all, Roy Truly vouched for this suspect, whether we think it was "Oswald" or Dougherty. Baker's suspect encounter with a white male happened on the 3rd or 4th floor, walking away from the stairs. Exactly what biographical data do we have on Dougherty that would rule him out for certain as Baker's suspect? 

Now if, in fact, Baker did NOT encounter Dougherty (and we know it could not have been "Oswald") then the brown-coated man seen by Carr and Worrell is very much in play, in my mind. That man, whoever he was, was NOT a TSBD employee, so Truly lied to Baker (thus proving that Truly was in on the plot) to enable this man to make the getaway.

However, if as I believe, John Armstrong's passenger elevator escape theory is viable, then the question remains: why didn't both of the sixth floor conspirators use it to escape? Why did one of them apparently descend to the 3rd or 4th floor where he was seen by Truly and Baker? 

To me, that is the crux of the matter - if the elevator escape theory is correct, then why didn't both men use it? And, thanks to Herbert Sawyer's testimony, we know that at least one unknown man did, in fact, use the elevator just as the police were rushing in ("We got onto the elevator. We bumped into this man.")

So why did the other guy take the stairs?

Or, in fact, did both 6th floor men really take the passenger elevator, and did Truly and Baker encounter Dougherty near the 3rd or 4th floor stairwell? And did this encounter with an actual TSBD employee later morph into the (false) 2nd floor lunchroom encounter?

 

 

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I have been arguing for a larger than 2 man assassination team in the Sniper's Nest by including the possibility that there was black man there according to Amos Euins.  I believe the team was larger and that's why it was necessary to use the passenger elevator as an escape route.

Richard Carr didn't notice one man leaving the TSBD by the rear of the building as James Worrell did.  He noticed 3.  Two got into the Nash Rambler and 1 proceeded to walk towards Main Street in a hurry looking backwards.  From the Clay Shaw trial in 1969 comes the following:

Q: And at the same time you were looking up towards the Texas Book Depository seeing three men come out from behind it. Is that right?
A: Do you see these dots on this --
Q: Would you answer my question and then explain, please, sir. I say would you answer the question and then explain.
A: Yes, I will answer your question, repeat it, please.
THE COURT: Mr. Carr, when a question is put to you, you can answer it yes or no, but you have a right to explain your answer so you cannot be cut off, so if you wish to explain the answer, you are permitted by law to do so.
(Whereupon, the question was read back by the Reporter.)
A: Yes, that's right.
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: And also at the same time you were watching the man whom you say you had seen on the Fifth Floor of the Book Depository walk on Houston Street towards Main. Is that right?

***

THE COURT: You may explain.
A: The same man that I saw here in this window was with the three men that I told you a minute ago, they came out from behind the School Book Depository, got in the station wagon, one man crossed the street and then came down this side of Houston Street and turned onto Commerce Street.

More interesting stuff:

Q: You can go on and tell us what you observed, tell us what you observed and what you heard.
A: All right. As I stated before, I noticed this fellow in the window, and this gentleman, the pipefitter and myself, he made the statement to --
MR. DYMOND: I object to what the man made a statement concerning.
BY MR. GARRISON:
Q: You can say what you said.
A: I thought he was a Secret Agent man or an FBI man.
Q: What did the man in the window look like?
A: He had on a hat, a felt hat, a light hat, he had on heavy-rimmed glasses, dark, the glasses were heavy-rimmed, and heavy ear pieces on his glasses.
Q: Go ahead.
A: He had on a tie, he had on a light shirt, a tan sport coat.

**

Q: Now, after the shots, did you notice any movement of any kind --
A: Yes, I did.
Q: -- as unusual, that was unusual?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Would you tell us what you observed.
A: Should I point it out, sir?
Q: Yes.
A: At this point right here, at this School Book Depository there was a Rambler Station Wagon there with a rack on the back, built on the top of this.
Q: Which way was the station wagon facing?
A: It was parked on the wrong side of the street, next to the School Book Depository heading north.

and,

Q: North being the top of the photomap, north is the top as you have indicated?
A: North is the top, and it was headed in this direction towards the railroad tracks, and immediately after the shooting there was three men that emerged from behind the School Book Depository, there was a Latin, I can't say whether he was Spanish, Cuban, but he was real dark-complected, stepped out and opened the door, there was two men entered that station wagon, and the Latin drove it north on Houston. The car was in motion before the rear door was closed, and this one man got in the front, and then he slid in from the -- from the driver's side over, and the Latin got back and they proceeded north and it was moving before the rear door was closed, and the other man that I described to you being in this window which would have been one, two, the third window over here came across the street, he came down, coming towards the construction site on Houston Street, to Commerce, in a very big hurry, he came to Commerce Street and he turned toward town on Commerce Street and every once in a while he would look over his shoulder as if he was being followed.

As we know an Oswald gets picked up on Elm Street.  Let's count people.  Two men noticed for sure on the 6th floor Sniper's Nest.  Add, one black man as a possibility to the list.  A black man is not described as a member of the 3 man group.  One of the three men walks up Houston towards Main.  2 men get in the station wagon with the Latin.  One man is picked up on Elm.  Our count should equal 6 men.  2 + 1 + 2 + 1 + a -1.   Now if you add the possibility of 1 or two extra men from the TSBD to control lights and elevators and provide watch security for the assassination team you could have as many as 7 or more men involved.  The Oswald double is counted at the end as a minus one. 

Edited by John Butler
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As we know an Oswald gets picked up on Elm Street.  Let's count people.  Two men noticed for sure on the 6th floor Sniper's Nest.  Add, one black man as a possibility to the list.  A black man is not described as a member of the 3 man group.  One of the three men walks up Houston towards Main.  2 men get in the station wagon with the Latin.  One man is picked up on Elm.  Our count should equal 6 men.  2 + 1 + 2 + 1 + a -1.   Now if you add the possibility of 1 or two extra men from the TSBD to control lights and elevators and provide watch security for the assassination team you could have as many as 7 or more men involved.  The Oswald double is counted at the end as a minus one. 

My count here doesn't seem right.  Let's try again.

1. Two men in the Sniper's Nest seen by many.  2

2. The possibility of a third, a back man.  1

3.  3 men come from behind the TSBD and two of which get into a Nash Rambler with a third man, a Latin.  3

4.  1 man proceeds down Houston toward Main St. 

That's a total of 7:  One of the 3 men one is seen on the 5th floor.  And, an Oswald is picked up on Elm Street.  These are not counted because they are represented in the earlies count numbers 1-4.

If you add 1 or 2 men as helpers from the TSBD for extra duties then the count goes to 8 or 9 men in the assassination team.

There are others seen on the 6th floor down by the west end of the building.  That would make an even larger team.  Or, two teams possibly.

Edited by John Butler
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