“The lights all went out,” and the elevators stopped while JFK was murdered. Shelley and Lovelady were near the bottom of the back staircase, by the electrical panel... and Vickie Adams saw them ... until everyone's story changed...

[John Butler]

In January, 2011 the 6^th Floor Museum posted a conversation with Mary Hollies.  She said the following about Lee Oswald and Bonnie Ray Williams:

“Floor five and six were all storage, warehouse. It was all open. It had wooden floors. You could hear the sound very easily, especially through the elevator shaft” “I spent a lot of time on the 4th and 5th floors. When it was announced that the president was near, “Alice (Foster) and I said “let’s go up to the fifth floor”. We rang for the elevator and Lee was on the elevator but he didn’t stop for us. He kept going. So we were kind of miffed with him, and we hollered up the shaft. “Hey, you could’ve stopped for us. But he kept on going to the sixth floor, and then he locked the elevator up. When we finally got to the 5th floor we opened a window and we were sitting on the window ledge and we heard clack..clank..clank..and someone was coming down the noisy elevator. It was a black dude coming down (Bonnie Ray Williams). We went to the window and sat there. We had the perfect place to watch.” (Some researchers believe that Mary Hollies was on the 4th floor but she insists that she was on the 5th floor and later moved to the 4th) We could see the president and Jackie coming down Houston and then…. we thought a cannon had gone off. We saw the president slump and we saw Jackie getting on the back of the car. She was hysterical. “I believe it was three shots, two or three. It was definitely not one.” “Alice noticed some smoke over on the little hill that was there. She saw smoke over there but I don’t know that it was a gun being fired. I don’t know what it was. Every one was going crazy. “Like a chicken with its head cut off.”

From an earlier post from Duke Lane in 2007:

 “The fact of the matter is that Williams was probably on the sixth floor as late as 12:27-12:28. This is based on Jarman or Norman's testimony that they did not leave the front of the building (where they were seen and noticed by Roy Truly) until after they had heard that the motorcade was on Main Street. That could not have been before 12:22, when the pilot car first indicated that it was on Main Street, and could have been as late as 12:27 when the motorcade was again announced as being on Main.”

When you put these two together the suspicion that Bonnie Ray Williams is the black man seen on the 6^th floor becomes stronger.  And, if you can believe Mary Hollies it becomes a certainty.

Bonnie Ray with dust (some thought saw dust) in his hair could very well be the man seen by Amos Euins who first said he saw a white man there but latter denied that and said it was a white spot on his head that he was referring to.  Euins had told a reporter, James Underwood, that the man he saw was black.  This was noted by a policeman in his notebook at that time.

The Oswald they saw may have been the double and was not recognized as such due to the darkeness of the elevator shaft, or the quick passage up the shaft or, having his back turned.  Oswald didn’t reply indicating there was a difference in voice quality between the two Oswalds.  This was the same kind of thing mentioned by others.

There must have been a strong resemblance between the two for someone such as Mary Hollies to see an Oswald in the Oswald double who was on the 6^th floor.

As an aside, there are two things that fit my peculiar notions.  One is that shooting occurred on Houston Street not on Elm for the Zapruder events (I actually think the intersection rather than Houston Street).  Strange, isn't it.  The other is that she didn't hear shots coming from the floor above her.

Edited March 23, 2019 by John Butler

[Jim Hargrove]

On 3/20/2019 at 7:38 AM, Paul Bacon said:

Still though, I'm wondering if Baker's earliest testimony about accosting a man on the 3rd or 4th floor, indicates that it was "Lee" alone who used the passenger elevator for escape.  It strikes me that it would have been more imperative to get "Lee" out of the building un-noticed, although it would have been important to get both men off the 6th floor immediately.

 

21 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

The question remains though: just who did Baker encounter on the 3rd or 4th floor? Was it Jack Dougherty? If not, then we know that Roy Truly lied and vouched for someone who was not a TSBD employee, thus proving Truly was a witting part of the conspiracy.

I’ve been assuming that in his 11/22 handwritten affidavit Baker just got the floor wrong in describing his encounter with the brown-shirted Oswald (Harvey).  His description isn’t very accurate (“a white man approx 30 years old 5-9-165 lbs – dk hair and wearing a lt brown jacket”) but it isn’t totally bonkers and it must not have been very bright in the stairway.  That big, untucked brown shirt could surely be called a jacket, and since Truly told him “he works here,” that really limits the possibilities. Do you guys completely discount the possibility that Baker was describing brown-shirted Oswald, but got the floor wrong?

[Jim Hargrove]

21 hours ago, John Butler said:

....Carr’s statements at the Clay Shaw trial differ radically, in my opinion, from years earlier FBI statements. 

From the Shaw Trial:

” Q: Would you tell us what you observed.
A: Should I point it out, sir?
Q: Yes.
A: At this point right here, at this School Book Depository there was a Rambler Station Wagon there with a rack on the back, built on the top of this.
Q: Which way was the station wagon facing?
A: It was parked on the wrong side of the street, next to the School Book Depository heading north.
Q: North being the top of the photomap, north is the top as you have indicated?
A: North is the top, and it was headed in this direction towards the railroad tracks, and immediately after the shooting there was three men that emerged from behind the School Book Depository, there was a Latin, I can't say whether he was Spanish, Cuban, but he was real dark-complected, stepped out and opened the door, there was two men entered that station wagon, and the Latin drove it north on Houston.

The car was in motion before the rear door was closed, and this one man got in the front, and then he slid in from the -- from the driver's side over, and the Latin got back and they proceeded north and it was moving before the rear door was closed, and the other man that I described to you being in this window which would have been one, two, the third window over here came across the street, he came down, coming towards the construction site on Houston Street, to Commerce, in a very big hurry, he came to Commerce Street and he turned toward town on Commerce Street and every once in a while he would look over his shoulder as if he was being followed.
Q: Now, Mr. Carr, did you have occasion to give this information to any law enforcement agencies?
A: Yes, I did.”

Based on this, I conclude that the later statements by Carr at the Clay Shaw Trial are more truthful and explain what Carr actually saw without interference from the FBI.

The events that happened to Carr over time indicate that someone was really interested in what he said and wanted to keep it in tune with his FBI statements to the point of his death.

 

John,

Thanks for the input.  Here’s Carr’s alleged description of events according to the FBI statement:

"While I was on Houston St. near the Commerce St. intersection I saw a man whom I believe was identical with the man I had earlier seen looking out of the window of the Texas School Book Depository building. This man, walking very fast, proceeded on Houston St. south to Commerce St., then east on Commerce St. to Record St. which is one block from Houston St. This man got into a 1961 or 1962 Grey Rambler Station Wagon which was parked just north of Commerce on Record St. The station wagon, which had Texas license and was driven by a young negro man, drove off in a northerly direction.”

In other words, according to the FBI Carr says he saw the man walking from the general direction of the TSBD south on Houston toward his (Carr’s) position near Houston and Commerce (two blocks south of the TSBD) and then east on commerce a block to Record, where he got into the Rambler and drove north (which is in the general direction of the Book Depository).

In his Shaw trial testimony, Carr describes the Rambler as being parked substantially closer to the TSBD, and he clearly describes more than one person getting into it, as you say.  Unless I’m missing other parts of his Garrison testimony, you’re right to point out that these descriptions are substantially different. We agree that there is little reason to believe the the FBI’s version of anything related to the assassination.

The only thing that bothers me, though, it that even the FBI version of Carr’s observation smacks of the possibility of conspiracy, and the Bureau’s usual fakery was far more ham-handed.  Thanks again for pointing to Carr’s testimony at the Shaw trial.

 

[John Butler]

Jim,

I would like to get your opinion on the Mary Hollies post made earlier.  I just found this recently among things I had collected years ago.  I realized this is why Bonnie Ray Williams is my main candidate for the black man on the 6th floor.  I had forgotten Mary and what she said in 2011.  But subconsciously, this was the reasoning for the suspicion that Williams was on the 6th floor.  Mary claims to be on the 5th floor even though there are photos showing a woman sitting in a window on the 4th floor.  If my memory serves, Junior Jarman said he saw a woman sitting in the window as he went down to the west end of the building on the 5th floor.

If Mary can be believed she has identified two of the three men seen on the 6th floor, Bonnie Ray Williams and a Lee Oswald (the double).  4 people at the Nash Rambler (If that can be believed) and the double leaving the TSBD later indicates that there very well may have been 4 people on the 6th floor.  This large of a number requires an efficient, secretive, get-away plan.  The passenger elevator serves well for that.  Four people leaving by stairs, or freight elevator, or fire escape is very noticeable.  As Richard Carr indicates when he said he saw 3 men leaving the rear of the TSBD.  This was "immediately" after the shooting.  And, that raises speculation that they may have left before the shooting leaving Oswald (the double) to do the clean up.  Their show display was over.

Mary Hollies identifies why the automatic freight elevator is on the 5th floor.  It was brought down by Williams from the 6th floor.  Truly sees it on the 5th floor and states both elevators were there because the bottoms were even.  It can only have went down after Truly and Baker goes to the 7th floor.  Jack Daugherty is supposedly lurking somewhere on the 5th floor.  If so, that makes a total of 6 people (this includes Alice Foster) there during the shooting.  Any could have taken the freight elevator down.

As far as the FBI goes, it is the most corrupt government agency for the last (nearly) 100 years.  J. Edgar Hoover became the Director of the Bureau of Investigation in 1924 (renamed the FBI in 1935).  The FBI's real role in government is as a political enforcement tool for variously, the Director, the Attorney General, or the President or whoever has the power to control what the FBI does.  Criminal Investigation is the cover used by the FBI or the public's consumption.  I say for nearly the last 100 years because J. Edgar Hoover was as corrupt or more corrupt than most in government.  The FBI has not changed since his time. 

If an FBI agent didn't toe the line he was out.  By 1963, Hoover had 39 years to enforce this kind of discipline.  FBI agents at the time of the assassination had no problem with coercing, intimidating, and forcing witnesses to say what they wanted.  In the case of Richard Carr, I believe he copied or had dictated to him what he was to say in the 2-3-64 statement.  And, later on at the Shaw trial he felt free to say what he saw.

There is no way to prove that.  It is speculation.  But, someone who reads this may find a way to validate it.

 

     

Edited March 24, 2019 by John Butler

[Jim Hargrove]

On 3/23/2019 at 3:49 PM, John Butler said:

In January, 2011 the 6^th Floor Museum posted a conversation with Mary Hollies.  She said the following about Lee Oswald and Bonnie Ray Williams:

“Floor five and six were all storage, warehouse. It was all open. It had wooden floors. You could hear the sound very easily, especially through the elevator shaft” “I spent a lot of time on the 4th and 5th floors. When it was announced that the president was near, “Alice (Foster) and I said “let’s go up to the fifth floor”. We rang for the elevator and Lee was on the elevator but he didn’t stop for us. He kept going. So we were kind of miffed with him, and we hollered up the shaft. “Hey, you could’ve stopped for us. [....]

Let’s let Bonnie Ray Williams and Junior Jarman go for a minute and just consider Mary Hollies.  As you probably know, there’s lots of so-called evidence from 1964 that she didn’t see Oswald, any Oswald, around the time of the assassination.  Easiest to ignore are the FBI versions, so….

In her allegedly signed FBI statement of 3/19/64 she allegedly said, “At the time the shots were fired, I did not see Oswald or know of his whereabouts. During the morning of the assassination of President Kennedy, I saw no individuals in the Texas School Book Depository who attracted my attention in any way.”

That does sound uncommonly definitive, does it not? <LOL>

In her allegedly signed FBI statement of 3/19/64, Betty Alice Foster allegedly said, “I was with Mary Hollies, 242 W. Davis, Dallas, Texas.  I heard something that sounded like fireworks after the President's car turned down Elm Street but I wasn't sure what it was. I did not know what had
happened.  I did not see lee Harvey Oswald at that time or anyone who looked like him.”

Even more definitive, eh?

Harder to dismiss is the W. E. Potts (DPD Homicide and Robbery Detective) report of 2/18/64 in which he described his interview with Miss Hollies. Potts doesn’t indicate Hollies said anything about seeing Oswald near the time of the assassination. She does say that she watched the parade with Alice Foster by looking out a fourth floor window.  Potts’s report ends with these words: “Miss Hollies states she did not know Oswald, but had seen him in the lunchroom of the Texas School Book Depository on numerous occasions.  She does not know Jack Ruby.”

Even harder to dismiss, assuming it is true, is that neither Hollies nor Alice Foster said anything for nearly 50 years about seeing “Lee Harvey Oswald” taking a freight elevator up to the so-called sniper’s nest shortly before JFK was assassinated.  It seems to me the FBI and the DPD and the WC would have LOVED to hear that!

But we hear it 48 years after the fact from, of all sources, the Sixth Floor Museum?  If I were asked to name any organization on earth less trustworthy than the FBI regarding the Kennedy Assassination, the Sixth Floor Museum might be the only outfit I could conjure.

It all sounds completely unbelievable to me.
 

[Paul Jolliffe]

21 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Let’s let Bonnie Ray Williams and Junior Jarman go for a minute and just consider Mary Hollies.  As you probably know, there’s lots of so-called evidence from 1964 that she didn’t see Oswald, any Oswald, around the time of the assassination.  Easiest to ignore are the FBI versions, so….

In her allegedly signed FBI statement of 3/19/64 she allegedly said, “At the time the shots were fired, I did not see Oswald or know of his whereabouts. During the morning of the assassination of President Kennedy, I saw no individuals in the Texas School Book Depository who attracted my attention in any way.”

That does sound uncommonly definitive, does it not? <LOL>

In her allegedly signed FBI statement of 3/19/64, Betty Alice Foster allegedly said, “I was with Mary Hollies, 242 W. Davis, Dallas, Texas.  I heard something that sounded like fireworks after the President's car turned down Elm Street but I wasn't sure what it was. I did not know what had
happened.  I did not see lee Harvey Oswald at that time or anyone who looked like him.”

Even more definitive, eh?

Harder to dismiss is the W. E. Potts (DPD Homicide and Robbery Detective) report of 2/18/64 in which he described his interview with Miss Hollies. Potts doesn’t indicate Hollies said anything about seeing Oswald near the time of the assassination. She does say that she watched the parade with Alice Foster by looking out a fourth floor window.  Potts’s report ends with these words: “Miss Hollies states she did not know Oswald, but had seen him in the lunchroom of the Texas School Book Depository on numerous occasions.  She does not know Jack Ruby.”

Even harder to dismiss, assuming it is true, is that neither Hollies nor Alice Foster said anything for nearly 50 years about seeing “Lee Harvey Oswald” taking a freight elevator up to the so-called sniper’s nest shortly before JFK was assassinated.  It seems to me the FBI and the DPD and the WC would have LOVED to hear that!

But we hear it 48 years after the fact from, of all sources, the Sixth Floor Museum?  If I were asked to name any organization on earth less trustworthy than the FBI regarding the Kennedy Assassination, the Sixth Floor Museum might be the only outfit I could conjure.

It all sounds completely unbelievable to me.
 

Jim,

I agree completely - we are to believe that 48 years after the fact a witness (known to and interviewed by the FBI!) suddenly emerges who can place “Oswald” on the sixth floor and who locks up the freight elevator?

Not a chance in hell!

Mary Hollies’s 2011 alleged statements about her “Oswald “ encounter are a fabrication by a xxxx or XXXXX and should be disregarded by anyone with any sense of what constitutes reliable and valid evidence.

On a different note, Jim, I realize that the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter is a dicey topic, but I am currently persuaded that it did not happen. For reasons too lengthy to go into here, I believe it was concocted after the fact by authorities desperate to move “Oswald” as far as possible from where he actually was during the shooting: on the first floor, just about to go through the doors of the vestibule, on his way to the top of the steps outside the TSBD, where he would be seen and filmed by Darnell some 30 seconds after the shots.

Therefore Baker’s first day affidavit suspect description was not of Harvey, but that of a conspirator, one for whom Truly vouched.

After all Jim, if the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter between “Oswald”, Truly, and Baker really happened within 75 - 90 seconds of the shots, then how could Truly even possibly point his finger of suspicion at “Oswald” around 1:00 pm if he had just cleared him less than 30 minutes earlier?

[John Butler]

Jim,

Your opinion is in tune with others that I have read several years ago when I first ran across this.  Her story is unbelievable to most including myself.  Rationally one has to take a step back from it considering the source.

However, the irrational part of myself seems to want to hang on to this story because it has elements that might connect to the wider scheme of things.  The story of Oswald (Which one?)approaching Mary Hollies on the bus might have to do with what was really happening at the TSBD in that outpost of CIA gun-running, dope trafficking, and school book delivering folks.  Some of the statements she said he said about assassinating Kennedy could be to work his way into some kind of scheme there.  That's a bit different than the usual take of putting words in Oswald's mouth to connect him to the actual shooting.  What Mary Hollies has said can be read several different ways.

Odd connections pop up in this story.  Oswald caught  VD, gonorrhea, in Japanese whorehouses which was treated and marked as "in the line of duty".   Was he being trained as a seducer of women?  Silly ideas like that were around at that time.  Being able to seduce women a la James Bond would be a handy skill for an agent trying to work his way into an organization.  Was he attempting to get close to Mary Hollies for the purpose of investigating the book companies role in the assassination.  His statements about his willingness to shoot Kennedy may have been a ruse.  This is just idle speculation.  But, there has to be some reason Oswald was at the TSBD? 

Why was Oswald sent into the TSBD? What was the rational he was given to get him inside as a government agent.  Was he trying to work his way into whatever was going on through people like Mary Hollies or others in other book companies?   

[Paul Jolliffe]

10 hours ago, John Butler said:

Jim,

Your opinion is in tune with others that I have read several years ago when I first ran across this.  Her story is unbelievable to most including myself.  Rationally one has to take a step back from it considering the source.

However, the irrational part of myself seems to want to hang on to this story because it has elements that might connect to the wider scheme of things.  The story of Oswald (Which one?)approaching Mary Hollies on the bus might have to do with what was really happening at the TSBD in that outpost of CIA gun-running, dope trafficking, and school book delivering folks.  Some of the statements she said he said about assassinating Kennedy could be to work his way into some kind of scheme there.  That's a bit different than the usual take of putting words in Oswald's mouth to connect him to the actual shooting.  What Mary Hollies has said can be read several different ways.

Odd connections pop up in this story.  Oswald caught  VD, gonorrhea, in Japanese whorehouses which was treated and marked as "in the line of duty".   Was he being trained as a seducer of women?  Silly ideas like that were around at that time.  Being able to seduce women a la James Bond would be a handy skill for an agent trying to work his way into an organization.  Was he attempting to get close to Mary Hollies for the purpose of investigating the book companies role in the assassination.  His statements about his willingness to shoot Kennedy may have been a ruse.  This is just idle speculation.  But, there has to be some reason Oswald was at the TSBD? 

Why was Oswald sent into the TSBD? What was the rational he was given to get him inside as a government agent.  Was he trying to work his way into whatever was going on through people like Mary Hollies or others in other book companies?   

John,

I think you are confusing Mary Hollies (TSBD employee who supposedly conversed with "Oswald" as he took an elevator UP to the sixth floor!) with Mary Bledsoe ("Oswald's" landlady - maybe - for one week in early October, prior to his move to the room at 1026 N. Beckley. She is the one who claimed that the "Oswald" she recognized on McWatters' bus was our man, LHO. Actually, there is good reason to doubt that she was even on that bus until AFTER the man later alleged to be "Oswald" departed that bus. There is even reason to wonder whether "Oswald" ever rented a room from her at all. But that is a separate thread . . . )

As to what "assignment" "Oswald" had been told was his task at the TSBD, we can only speculate. Unknown to him, his real job at the TSBD was to be in position to be "patsified" on 11/22/63. Peter Dale Scott has speculated that "Oswald" may have been told that his job at the TSBD was part of an investigation of Joe Molina, a man with the audacity to belong to a (perceived) left - leaning veterans group. Molina was indeed fired a month after the assassination for generally being a lefty. 

[Jim Hargrove]

Paul,

Hopefully not starting a lengthy debate on the bus and taxi ride, but if Harvey Oswald got on WcWatters’ bus, it was surely because he was instructed to do so.  The evidence may not be as good as that for the cab ride, but there is that transfer produced remarkably quickly, Oswald does say he rode the bus in Fritz’s notes, and how do we otherwise explain the fact that U.S. Army employee Stuart Reed managed, on a single roll of film, to take pictures of the Book Depository, Bus 1213, and the Texas Theater just as Oswald is being dragged out?  Sure sounds like a planned operation to me, and if you believe that both the white-shirted and brown-shirted Oswalds were in the TSBD at the time of the hit, both had to leave in some way.

Regarding Baker and Truly’s 2nd-or-3rd-or-4th floor encounter with Oswald or someone else, wouldn’t any consideration of a 4th floor encounter (and possibly a 3rd floor encounter) have to consider the fact that Dorothy Garner was right next to the fourth floor staircase and, in fact, watched as Vickie Adams and Sandra Styles ran down the stairs?  She supposedly saw Baker and Truly run by her on the way up the stairway, yet she apparently didn’t notice the challenge on her floor or the one immediately below it?  Seems unlikley.

Harvey Oswald was surely ordered to stay inside during Kennedy’s drive-by.  If we believe he was the designated patsy, how could he possibly be allowed outdoors where he could be witnessed, photographed and instantly exonerated?  Shelley is the most likely candidate to give the order, especially so if he was in that photo taken during FPCC charade in New Orleans.

[Paul Bacon]

On ‎3‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 8:30 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

 

I’ve been assuming that in his 11/22 handwritten affidavit Baker just got the floor wrong in describing his encounter with the brown-shirted Oswald (Harvey).  His description isn’t very accurate (“a white man approx 30 years old 5-9-165 lbs – dk hair and wearing a lt brown jacket”) but it isn’t totally bonkers and it must not have been very bright in the stairway.  That big, untucked brown shirt could surely be called a jacket, and since Truly told him “he works here,” that really limits the possibilities. Do you guys completely discount the possibility that Baker was describing brown-shirted Oswald, but got the floor wrong?

Jim, I think Bart Kamp, at prayerman.com, makes a pretty good argument that the 2nd floor lunch room encounter never happened.  So I am of the mind that the early affidavit given by Baker was probably accurate --including the encounter on the 3rd or 4th floor.  After all, Baker would probably remember having climbed several floors before an encounter, instead of just one floor.  Seems to me it would be a big difference in my mind.

I'm not sure that Baker ever even saw Harvey Oswald in the depository at all.  Bart has several pictures of Baker facing Harvey in a hallway at DPD, but he never I.D.'d him as a man he saw in the depository.

My personal view is that Harvey Oswald came down to the first floor for lunch in an elevator, stopping on the way to get a coke, and never again left the first floor.  I think he is, in fact, Prayerman.

I also think that Truly was an inside man, along with Bill Shelley.  I'm now reading the Ed. forum's thread entitled 'Spider's Web', presenting the idea that the TSBD was a CIA front involved in running drugs and guns for the purpose of generating needed money.  I think it probable that the man encountered on the 3rd or 4th floor was excused by Truly.

Those are my thoughts, at least for the time being.

 

Edited March 25, 2019 by Paul Bacon
oops, just now noticed your additional comments re: Dorothy Garner.

[John Butler]

Paul J.,

I didn't confuse Marys.  Mary Hollies was who I was talking about.  I have problems with her statements.  She is a quad-x or more familiarly a XXXX.  Either she lied during the era of the assassination or 48 years later.  My problem is I keep wanting to look further at some of the things she said and how much she was influenced by the 6th floor people.  As and example, she puts Bonnie Ray Williams on the 6th floor just moments before the assassination.  She has him coming down from the 6th floor by elevator and locking the elevator in place.  The question is if the 6th floor Museum had that great of an influence on what she said in 2011 then why would they allow her to burn the WC's star witness Bonnie Ray Williams.  I have problems with other things she said and why she may have said what she said in 1964.  I have a problem with there being no early statements by the Sheriff's Office or the FBI in November of 63.  Everybody at the TSBD was covered at the time.  They may be out there but, I haven't found any.

I don't want to argue with or try to refute what Jim Hargroves has said.  I am, or at least part of me, is in agreement.  Jim is a solid Kennedy researcher and a good person who doesn't mind saying what he thinks straight up.  What I want to do is suggest some alternatives that people can say yea or nay on their merits.

Paul B,

I think Harvey Oswald was outside the TSBD on Elm St. photographing the motorcade as it went by.  He had plenty of time to go back to the TSBD steps and be filmed as Prayer Man.  The object he has in his hands in not a coke but, an object about a foot in width.  I judge this to be a camera in a two handed camera mount.  That is what he went home for instead of curtain rods.  The John Martin film shows Prayer Man on Elm St. as the presidential limousine goes by.  That is the basis for my contention.  I might add most people don't agree and say that can't see Prayer Man there or his camera and it's camera flash.

[John Butler]

Below is a frame from the Tina Towner film.  It is the kind of garbage one finds when trying to verify a point.  In this case Where is Prayer Man (Harvey Oswald) when the presidential limo goes by?  The answer is not here but, that is problematic.  Altgens 6 shows Doorway man.  Hughes doesn't reveal anything of significance and neither does John Martin on whose on the steps.

Tina Towner shows this:

This is what is wrong with doing anything significant with the imagery of the Kennedy assassination.  If you look close you can't determine whether there is someone on the fire escape or not. 

With cut and paste garbage like this to work with you can't determine where Harvey Oswald was during the assassination.  The same is true of testimony concerning his whereabouts.  Can you believe what was said he said at the Dallas Police Department?  Everything has a counterpoint and some one can contradict most of what, if not all you say, about anything.

I believe that is by design and the proof of that is people are still arguing about what happened 55 years ago without consensus. 

Edited March 25, 2019 by John Butler

[Paul Jolliffe]

22 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Paul,

Hopefully not starting a lengthy debate on the bus and taxi ride, but if Harvey Oswald got on WcWatters’ bus, it was surely because he was instructed to do so.  The evidence may not be as good as that for the cab ride, but there is that transfer produced remarkably quickly, Oswald does say he rode the bus in Fritz’s notes, and how do we otherwise explain the fact that U.S. Army employee Stuart Reed managed, on a single roll of film, to take pictures of the Book Depository, Bus 1213, and the Texas Theater just as Oswald is being dragged out?  Sure sounds like a planned operation to me, and if you believe that both the white-shirted and brown-shirted Oswalds were in the TSBD at the time of the hit, both had to leave in some way.

Regarding Baker and Truly’s 2nd-or-3rd-or-4th floor encounter with Oswald or someone else, wouldn’t any consideration of a 4th floor encounter (and possibly a 3rd floor encounter) have to consider the fact that Dorothy Garner was right next to the fourth floor staircase and, in fact, watched as Vickie Adams and Sandra Styles ran down the stairs?  She supposedly saw Baker and Truly run by her on the way up the stairway, yet she apparently didn’t notice the challenge on her floor or the one immediately below it?  Seems unlikley.

Harvey Oswald was surely ordered to stay inside during Kennedy’s drive-by.  If we believe he was the designated patsy, how could he possibly be allowed outdoors where he could be witnessed, photographed and instantly exonerated?  Shelley is the most likely candidate to give the order, especially so if he was in that photo taken during FPCC charade in New Orleans.

Jim,

I think you may have misread my skepticism about the McWatters' bus ride: I believe you and I agree that "Oswald" was on the bus, albeit mighty briefly. No, my skepticism was about the presence of Mary Bledsoe on that same bus during the ride with "Oswald". I completely agree that the Stuart Reed photos of the McWatters bus stuck in traffic on Elm, east of the TSBD, are a part of conspiratorial photo montage, designed to illustrate the entire "official" story. The only way for Reed to have taken those photos was as part of an assignment, one about which he may (or may not) have been fully cognizant. The fact that he seemingly fled out of the country almost immediately afterward is, I believe, a clue that he was terrified that he had been caught up in something very evil.

Further, I believe that Roy Milton Jones' statement about the search of that bus was proof of a quiet plan to kill the patsy before anyone was the wiser - if "Oswald" was dead on the McWatters' bus within a few minutes of the assassination, I bet the conspiracy would have been successfully covered up.

As to Dorothy Garner,, thanks to the Warren Commission's failure to call her as a witness,  we don't know how long it was before she actually saw Truly and the policeman come up the stairs. We don't know exactly what she did or did not witness on any floor. We don't know what she had to say. All we know is that Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles had descended the stairs sometime before Truly and (Baker) came up. As I noted an hour ago on a different post, there is a powerful reason to believe that Marrion Baker did not immediately rush into the TSBD. That, in fact,  he was "standing still" outside the TSBD for some unspecified period of time before entering. But that is a separate post.

The William Whalley cab ride is a curiosity about which I do not have a firm opinion for now, although I am inclined to believe it.

About "Oswald's" presence on the steps, I agree that it was better for the conspirators to keep him out of sight in order better to frame him for the shooting. But I don't think it was absolutely essential to them - he could always be charged as an accessory, an accomplice, part of a larger plot if they could not pin the actual shooting on him. As we know, the Dallas Police did come mighty close to charging Buell Frazier, and I bet they had some other "suspects" lined up,  just in case. In any event, "Oswald's" presence at the top of the steps was probably the result of a spontaneous decision on his part - he said so in his first interrogation: "he wanted to see what all the excitement was about" . . .

Edited March 26, 2019 by Paul Jolliffe
grammar mistake

[Sandy Larsen]

11 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

As I noted an hour ago on a different post, there is a powerful reason to believe that Marrion Baker did not immediately rush into the TSBD. That, in fact,  he was "standing still" outside the TSBD for some unspecified period of time before entering. But that is a separate post.  [Emphasis is SL's.)

 

Paul,

I read your complete post, not just the portion I quote above. I found that your beliefs on the matters you laid out are remarkably close to my own.

Regarding the matter I quote here, are you saying that you posted elsewhere ("an hour ago") a reason for believing Marrion Baker didn't rush into the TSBD as per the official story? I believe the same and I'd like to read about your reasoning... if it's different than my own.

My reason for believing Marrion Baker didn't rush into the TSBD is that the Darnell/Couch clip proves he didn't, a fact that I presented on the forum a couple years ago. Do you have reasoning that goes beyond that?

 

EDIT: Never mind on that, Paul. I just came across the post that you spoke of. Your observations are interesting and do seem to describe Marrion Baker over on the corner of Elm and Houston, precisely where I said he appeared to be headed. I especially liked your observation of Truly's denial of the officer being 1) a motorcycle cop and 2) one in which he would know! Yea, methinks he doth protest too much!  LOL

 

Edited March 26, 2019 by Sandy Larsen

[Jim Hargrove]

18 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

About "Oswald's" presence on the steps, I agree that it was better for the conspirators to keep him out of sight in order better to frame him for the shooting. But I don't think it was absolutely essential to them - he could always be charged as an accessory, an accomplice, part of a larger plot if they could not pin the actual shooting on him. As we know, the Dallas Police did come mighty close to charging Buell Frazier, and I bet they had some other "suspects" lined up,  just in case. In any event, "Oswald's" presence at the top of the steps was probably the result of a spontaneous decision on his part - he said so in his first interrogation: "he wanted to see what all the excitement was about" . . .

Maybe, but it sure seems like a lot of work went into framing just “Oswald.”  All those appearances at the Sport Drome rifle range, sending a “Lee Harvey Oswald” to visit Robert McKeown to buy rifles to tie to Castro, the Statler-Hilton, Downtown Lincoln Mercury, that brown paper bag mailed to “Lee Oswald” at 601 West Nassau, and on and on. Most of that works best setting up LHO as the shooter.  Why ruin all that careful setup by risking the patsy being seen outdoors?  And since Fritz allegedly wrote that Harvey Oswald indicated he was outside during the very first interrogation, I’ve got to wonder if he hadn’t thought things out completely at that point and was improvising, but it is a good argument.

On another issue, can you point to the post(s) that make you think Baker hesitated before entering the TSBD?