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“The lights all went out,” and the elevators stopped while JFK was murdered. Shelley and Lovelady were near the bottom of the back staircase, by the electrical panel... and Vickie Adams saw them ... until everyone's story changed...


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9 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

For what it's worth, it should be obvious that had the first shot hit and killed JFK just as the limo turned onto Elm, then none of the subsequent shots would have been necessary, including those from the front.

The Tina Towner film has unmistakable evidence that the president involuntarily ducked to his left, winced and pulled his right hand back sharply just as the limo was completing its turn onto Elm. That is precisely the time that multiple witnesses claimed that a shot missed the limo, and some even claimed to have seen the missed shot strike the pavement at that moment. (I think it is likely that shot came from the Dal-Tex, quite possibly from the third floor open window, partially obscured by the fire escape. But I am not certain.)

Below is Hill's testimony which is relevant to what is depicted in Altgens 6

How do you account for this?

Mr. HILL. Well, as we came out of the curve, and began to straighten up, I was viewing the area which looked to be a park. There were people scattered throughout the entire park. And I heard a noise from my right rear, which to me seemed to be a firecracker. I immediately looked to my right and, in so doing, my eyes had to cross the Presidential limousine and I saw President Kennedy grab at himself and lurch forward and to the left. 
Mr. SPECTER. Why don't you just proceed, in narrative form, to tell us? 
Representative BOGGS. This was the first shot? 
Mr. HILL. This is the first sound that I heard; yes, sir. I jumped from the car, realizing that something was wrong, ran to the Presidential limousine.

BikeWithTheMike_Fig3.jpg?zoom=2

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Thanks Tony,

I had missed or forgotten the last part of Clint Hill's statement.  Maybe, it just didn''t sink in at the time.  Clint is saying what one of my biases call for.  That the Clint Hill / Jackie Kennedy scene actually occurred in front of the TSBD.  And, those scenes were later transferred from the Zapruder Gap to where they are in the current version of the Zapruder film,  past the Grassy Knoll.

At no time or at no where in Clint's statement does he transfer the action away from the turn into the intersection.

This is heresy to most conspiracy theorists.  Maybe, Ronnie the xxxxx will comment again and tell me I don't have a credibility on this either.

As far as Altgens 6, the limo is supposed to be past the Stemmons Freeway sign and not in front of the TSBD as it might appear in Altgens 6.  That's another fraud.

Paul is correct but for another reason.  There is a frame in Towner I call the "hit X" frame that clearly show a shot or the effect of it in frames near. 

Paul,

Harold Weisberg first noticed in 1967 that there appears to be shooters in the windows of the Dal-Tex.  You can blow up Altgens 6 and see what appears to be a rifle and in other windows suspicious people there.

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3 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Below is Hill's testimony which is relevant to what is depicted in Altgens 6

How do you account for this?

Mr. HILL. Well, as we came out of the curve, and began to straighten up, I was viewing the area which looked to be a park. There were people scattered throughout the entire park. And I heard a noise from my right rear, which to me seemed to be a firecracker. I immediately looked to my right and, in so doing, my eyes had to cross the Presidential limousine and I saw President Kennedy grab at himself and lurch forward and to the left. 
Mr. SPECTER. Why don't you just proceed, in narrative form, to tell us? 
Representative BOGGS. This was the first shot? 
Mr. HILL. This is the first sound that I heard; yes, sir. I jumped from the car, realizing that something was wrong, ran to the Presidential limousine.

BikeWithTheMike_Fig3.jpg?zoom=2

Tony,

I believe Clint Hill is telling it as he remembered it, but “we came out of the curve and began to straighten up” is not a precise location. Since we are talking about only a matter of feet here, it would have been nice (and essential, if the Warren Commission were conducting a real investigation instead of cover-up) if we knew exactly where Clint Hill was when he heard the first shot. I mean, surely you don’t believe that Clint Hill heard nothing until the moment shown in Altgens 6, do you? After all, by that time, the shot (or shots) had already struck JFK! They would have been fired while the limo was somewhat further east, but again, thanks to the Warren Commission’s incompetence (deceit, actually), we just can’t really say exactly where.

All I pointed out was that a number of witnesses believed that the first shot - which missed the limo - was fired as the limo was completing its turn onto Elm. Further, the incredible, “accidental” mis-handling of the films that would have shown the limo at that moment heightens my suspicion that the very first shot was fired just as the limo turned right in front of the TSBD.

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6 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

I mean, surely you don’t believe that Clint Hill heard nothing until the moment shown in Altgens 6, do you? After all, by that time, the shot (or shots) had already struck JFK!

Altgens 6 was taken moments after the noise that Hill heard and JFK was shot

What shot or shots had struck JFK before the frontal neck shot??

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On 3/27/2019 at 10:12 PM, John Butler said:

Thanks Tony,

I had missed or forgotten the last part of Clint Hill's statement.  Maybe, it just didn''t sink in at the time.  Clint is saying what one of my biases call for.  That the Clint Hill / Jackie Kennedy scene actually occurred in front of the TSBD.  And, those scenes were later transferred from the Zapruder Gap to where they are in the current version of the Zapruder film,  past the Grassy Knoll.

At no time or at no where in Clint's statement does he transfer the action away from the turn into the intersection.

This is heresy to most conspiracy theorists.  Maybe, Ronnie the xxxxx will comment again and tell me I don't have a credibility on this either.

As far as Altgens 6, the limo is supposed to be past the Stemmons Freeway sign and not in front of the TSBD as it might appear in Altgens 6.  That's another fraud.

Paul is correct but for another reason.  There is a frame in Towner I call the "hit X" frame that clearly show a shot or the effect of it in frames near. 

Paul,

Harold Weisberg first noticed in 1967 that there appears to be shooters in the windows of the Dal-Tex.  You can blow up Altgens 6 and see what appears to be a rifle and in other windows suspicious people there.

John,

I actually had the privilege of chatting on the phone with Harold Weisberg several times over the final decade of his life (although I never got to meet him in person) and I remember a conversation with him about that very topic - he even placed a blow-up of the suspicious figure behind the fire escape in the Dal-Tex on the inside cover of his “Whitewash II - the FBI and Secret Service Cover-Up.”

On a related note, I remember seeing 25 years ago a Secret Service re-enactment photo taken from the third floor (not the sixth or seventh floor, nor the roof) of the Dal Tex, looking west down Elm. Does anyone else here remember such a photo taken from a LOW floor of the Dal Tex?

Edited by Paul Jolliffe
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9 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Altgens 6 was taken moments after the noise that Hill heard and JFK was shot

What shot or shots had struck JFK before the frontal neck shot??

Oh I am not sure any shots had actually struck JFK before the throat wound. It would seem that at least one shot was fired - and missed - before the throat wound. Of course, since the limo was out of Zapruder’s sight behind the sign for a moment, it is possible the president had already received his back wound by Z - 225, when it re- emerges. But that is just a possibility, not a certainty.

Edited by Paul Jolliffe
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4 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Below is Hill's testimony which is relevant to what is depicted in Altgens 6

How do you account for this?

Mr. HILL. Well, as we came out of the curve, and began to straighten up, I was viewing the area which looked to be a park. There were people scattered throughout the entire park. And I heard a noise from my right rear, which to me seemed to be a firecracker. I immediately looked to my right and, in so doing, my eyes had to cross the Presidential limousine and I saw President Kennedy grab at himself and lurch forward and to the left. 
Mr. SPECTER. Why don't you just proceed, in narrative form, to tell us? 
Representative BOGGS. This was the first shot? 
Mr. HILL. This is the first sound that I heard; yes, sir. I jumped from the car, realizing that something was wrong, ran to the Presidential limousine.

BikeWithTheMike_Fig3.jpg?zoom=2

"Grab himself and lurch forward to the left."  Z film =  raising hands to grab at his throat, then leaning slightly forward from the back shot before back and to the left? 

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10 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Oh I am not sure any shots had actually hit him before the throat wound. It would seem that at least one shot was fired - and missed - before the throat wound. Of course, since the limo was out of Zapruder’s sight behind the sign for a moment, it is possible the president had already received his back wound by Z - 225, when it re- emerges. But that is just a possibility, not a certainty.

If you wish to use the Zapruder film as a reference, the first sound that Hill heard and the frontal neck shot occurred while the Limo was behind the Stemmons sign.

 

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6 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

"Grab himself and lurch forward to the left."  Z film =  raising hands to grab at his throat, then leaning slightly forward from the back shot before back and to the left? 

Did any Parkland doctor mention a back wound?

 

Edited by Tony Krome
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4 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Did any Parkland doctor mention a back wound?

 

Well, we have the death certificate from Admiral Burkley, JFK's personal doctor - the only man in the world who was:

1. riding in the motorcade and was an eye and ear witness

2. present throughout all of the desperate attempts to save JFK at Parkland Hospital

3. flew to Washington D.C. with the president's body aboard Air Force One and

4. present throughout the entire autopsy at Bethesda Naval Hospital

so naturally the Warren Commission did not call him as a witness!

(Way to go Warren Commission! Way to "investigate" the murder of the president of the United States! That's a lot of high-priced lawyering in action, right there!)

(Sorry about that. I tend to go off on the arrogance/incompetence/deceit of the Warren Commission members and their staff attorneys/lackeys/lickspittle yes-men/flunkies.)

Anyway, as you may know, Burkley's death certificate showed the president suffered a back wound "at about the level of the third thoracic vertebra" - in other words, in the president's back! Not the neck!

Why didn't the WC call Burkley as a witness?

Because he didn't believe that only one shooter could have done all the damage to the president! Burkley was too high-powered to ignore as a witness if he testified about what he saw, so of course they didn't dare call him!

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/md6/html/Image0.htm

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/md6/html/Image1.htm

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/numbered_files/box_23/180-10086-10295/html/180-10086-10295_0002a.htm

Edited by Paul Jolliffe
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The Zapruder Film is a fraud.  A fake.  It really can't be used for much of anything.  This has been debated many times before.  Where was the presidential limousine in Altgens 6 as compares to the Zapruder Film.

These two film frames from Zapruder show a unique fact.  The Stemmons sign is behind the presidential limo in frame 238.  In frame 255, which is the favored frame for comparison to Altgens 6, you can not see the Stemmons sign because it is behind the presidential limo. 

Can you find the Stemmons sign behind the presidential limo in Altgens 6.

z-238-255-compare.jpg

And, where is it in Altgens 6?  Altgens is in the middle of the road taking this photo!

BikeWithTheMike_Fig3.jpg?zoom=2

Lone Gunners and a good many conspiracy theorists will not look at this argument.  It violates all sense of meaningfulness for them.  Robert Groden is a prime example.  There are many on the forum who will respond bitterly to this unique presentation holding to the notion that the Zapruder Film is real, factual, and untainted by editing.

Ronnie, the Pent-x, brings this argument back up.  Why I don't know except he perhaps is one of the folks that fall into the above category.  I won't use one of his favorite terms "horse carp". 

 

Edited by John Butler
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On 3/26/2019 at 3:14 PM, Paul Jolliffe said:

Jim,

We agree that the primary patsy was "Oswald"....

 

On 3/26/2019 at 4:12 PM, Tony Krome said:

Do you believe the shot that caused Kennedy to clutch his throat area was one of entrance?

If so, why do you have the primary patsy behind him?

Tony,

I certainly think the throat wound was an entry wound, and I know people have debated endlessly about the “shallow” back wound, and how the WC laughably tried to move it.  But since you brought this up when Paul J. and I were agreeing that “Oswald” was the primary designated patsy, I have to ask....

Are you suggesting that no one was shooting from the TSBD?  Do you think Brennan, Euins, Jackson, Couch and undoubtedly others were lying about seeing a rifle in the window?  Do you think those witnesses riding in the same car who heard Dallas Times photographer Robert Jackson contemporaneously say to them that he saw a rifle in the sixth floor window were also lying?  And those guys on the fifth floor who heard the shots and the shells hitting the floor immediately above them were making it all up?

If not, then regardless of the actual wounds on Kennedy’s body,  the conspirators clearly were establishing a shooter on the sixth floor of the TSBD. And if you’re going to assassinate a sitting U.S. President, you HAVE to have a patsy, no?  Otherwise, the search for you will be relentless, and you will be caught.

What’s most disturbing about this is that the conspirators seemed to believe they could trust that the autopsy findings not point to a shot from anywhere but the rear.
 

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11 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

John,

I actually had the privilege of chatting on the phone with Harold Weisberg several times over the final decade of his life (although I never got to meet him in person) and I remember a conversation with him about that very topic - he even placed a blow-up of the suspicious figure behind the fire escape in the Dal-Tex on the inside cover of his “Whitewash II - the FBI and Secret Service Cover-Up.”

On a related note, I remember seeing 25 years ago a Secret Service re-enactment photo taken from the third floor (not the sixth or seventh floor, nor the roof) of the Dal Tex, looking west down Elm. Does anyone else here remember such a photo taken from a LOW floor of the Dal Tex?

Found that photo!

It appeared on the first page of the story "The Assassin" by Ben H. Bagdikian in the December 14, 1963 issue of the Saturday Evening Post, pages 22 - 29. Note that the caption reads "From the same building where Oswald lay in ambush, a telescopic lens constructs an approximation of what the killer saw at the moment of tragedy" . . .

Now, why would anyone believe that the "killer" was in the Dal-Tex building? (Unless a shot really had been fired from that window. Which, as I pointed out earlier, Harold Weisberg believed was a very high probability and said so in print over 52 years ago!)

I don't know if this photo was taken by the Secret Service - it doesn't appear to be the same reenactment as seen in the "official" video below. We know about the Dal-Tex photo montage from Shel Hershorn, but I can't tell if this was from the same batch.

If the photo was taken by a staff photographer for the Saturday Evening Post, then the obvious question is "Why that window in that building?" I mean, they not only failed to "approximate" the official floor, they didn't even get the right building! And this photo would have taken weeks after the assassination!

No, the simplest reason this photo was taken, and the caption read as it does, is because the photographer and writer had been told that was where the assassin "lay in ambush", just as they wrote.

One other possibility: this really is a Secret Service reenactment photo, and somehow, the folks at the Saturday Evening Post got their hands on it. But that raises even more disturbing questions, namely "Why did the Secret Service take a reenactment photo from that window (of all places!) and why wasn't this photo in the Warren Exhibits?"

ASSASINVIEW.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5nqVgujl9c

 

 

Edited by Paul Jolliffe
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1 hour ago, John Butler said:

The Zapruder Film is a fraud.  A fake.  It really can't be used for much of anything.  This has been debated many times before.  Where was the presidential limousine in Altgens 6 as compares to the Zapruder Film.

These two film frames from Zapruder show a unique fact.  The Stemmons sign is behind the presidential limo in frame 238.  In frame 255, which is the favored frame for comparison to Altgens 6, you can not see the Stemmons sign because it is behind the presidential limo. 

Can you find the Stemmons sign behind the presidential limo in Altgens 6.

z-238-255-compare.jpg

And, where is it in Altgens 6?  Altgens is in the middle of the road taking this photo!

BikeWithTheMike_Fig3.jpg?zoom=2

Lone Gunners and a good many conspiracy theorists will not look at this argument.  It violates all sense of meaningfulness for them.  Robert Groden is a prime example.  There are many on the forum who will respond bitterly to this unique presentation holding to the notion that the Zapruder Film is real, factual, and untainted by editing.

Ronnie, the Pent-x, brings this argument back up.  Why I don't know except he perhaps is one of the folks that fall into the above category.  I won't use one of his favorite terms "horse carp". 

 

John, I hate to come in again to show where you are wrong, but you don't seem to learn.

The reason the Stemmons sign isn't in Altgens 6 is because the field of view of his camera wasn't large enough to include it. If the Stemmons sign had been in the shot you would have seen the Western end of the TSBD in view. As it is you can only see the middle of the South side of the TSBD, where the third dividing buttress (between the windows in the centre of the South face of the building) can only be seen. Even the Thornton Sign isn't in the photo, the field of view is so narrow.

Edited by Ray Mitcham
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23 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

 

Tony,

I certainly think the throat wound was an entry wound, and I know people have debated endlessly about the “shallow” back wound, and how the WC laughably tried to move it.  But since you brought this up when Paul J. and I were agreeing that “Oswald” was the primary designated patsy, I have to ask....

Are you suggesting that no one was shooting from the TSBD?  Do you think Brennan, Euins, Jackson, Couch and undoubtedly others were lying about seeing a rifle in the window?  Do you think those witnesses riding in the same car who heard Dallas Times photographer Robert Jackson contemporaneously say to them that he saw a rifle in the sixth floor window were also lying?  And those guys on the fifth floor who heard the shots and the shells hitting the floor immediately above them were making it all up?

If not, then regardless of the actual wounds on Kennedy’s body,  the conspirators clearly were establishing a shooter on the sixth floor of the TSBD. And if you’re going to assassinate a sitting U.S. President, you HAVE to have a patsy, no?  Otherwise, the search for you will be relentless, and you will be caught.

What’s most disturbing about this is that the conspirators seemed to believe they could trust that the autopsy findings not point to a shot from anywhere but the rear.
 

Jim,

I absolutely agree that the conspirators had to control the autopsy findings, and of course, they did. We know who controlled the autopsy - high ranking members of the United States Armed Forces, most of whom seemed to be Navy Admirals. The Surgeon General of the USN, Vice Admiral Edward C. Kenney and Rear Admiral Calvin B. Galloway, the commander at Bethesda were in charge, according to Pierre Finck's New Orleans testimony.

Were others present, such as USAF Chief of Staff, General Curtis LeMay there as well?

Probably.

Ought that tell us something about the nature of the conspiracy itself?

Edited by Paul Jolliffe
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