“The lights all went out,” and the elevators stopped while JFK was murdered. Shelley and Lovelady were near the bottom of the back staircase, by the electrical panel... and Vickie Adams saw them ... until everyone's story changed...

[Jim Hargrove]

John,

I don't recall seeing this photo before.  It doesn't appear to be among the 77 photos collected in "The Evolution of Lee Harvey Oswald" poster Jack White and John Armstrong prepared.  I just did a Google image search of it and there are simply no matches.  That's weird.  Most of the other "Lee Harvey Oswald" images have hits all over the place.

[John Butler]

Jim,

That is really weird?  I picked this up on the internet a couple of years ago.  I just searched Lee Harvey Oswald in the Marines and the photo didn't come up.

I've even written a piece about this somewhere.  I'll have to look it up.  I've always thought this looked more like Robert Oswald but, had to give that up when you look at the features of this Oswald and compare them against the traits I have listed based on his Dallas mug shot.  It appears to be Harvey Oswald although my "art comparison sense" says otherwise.  I don't see any obvious signs of a composite picture.  This photo is often used when comparing the stance of Oswald in the BYP to the Oswald stance in this photo.

On a second search I found this based on Lee Harvey Oswald stance and the BYP:

It doesn't look like anything I have done in comparisons.  I have never discussed stance in the BYPs. 

Edited April 3, 2019 by John Butler

[Jim Hargrove]

OK, I finally gave up and sent the photo to John A.

He said that it is a photo of American-born LEE Oswald taken in Corregidor.  This was the Oswald with the “bull neck,”  John Pic’s real half-brother.  This picture was taken in early 1958, when LEE Oswald was in the Philippines and HARVEY Oswald was in New Orleans.  From a section of Harvey and Lee called “January—Lee in the Philippines:” 

On January 22nd the squad was put aboard an LST (Landing Ship Tank) en route to Corregidor,
a distance of 40 miles. They set up a radar bubble and arranged sleeping quarters in the remains
of a hospital that was bombed during World War II.

In Corregidor, Zack Stout, George Wilkins, Bobby Warren, and Oswald spent
countless off-duty hours exploring caves, tunnels and old battle sites from WWII.
Oswald took numerous color photographs of Stout, Wilkins, Warren and fellow Marines
that are now located in the National Archives. I obtained copies of these photographs
and sent them to Zack Stout, and he was able to identify several of his former Marine
buddies.

George A. "Hans" Wilkins, Jr. remembered that Oswald was on mess duty the
entire time he was there and became a proficient cook.9 A week or so after their unit
arrived they were visited by actor John Wayne, who was filming The Barbarian and the
Geisha. Wayne flew overhead in a helicopter and asked permission to land. When the
chopper landed Wayne was greeted by dozens of Marines who rushed out, crowded
around him, and then escorted him to the NCO club where he had more than a few
drinks.  [H&L p. 186]

[John Butler]

Jim,

I wasn't able to access January—Lee in the Philippines.

Are these photos related to the photos of Alan Weberman?  He published a book with very poor copies of photos of Oswald in the Philippines.  He claims Oswald was out hunting Huks or communist rebels there or around Subic Bay.  I remember seeing the photo of John Wayne and what looked like Harvey in the background.

If you still have my email and the time and energy I would love to see those photos.   

 

[Guest]

Richard Randolph Carr again, from a pre-Garrison trial interview, who saw two people behind the picket fence. And the feebies who told him to keep schtumm.

Thank you uncle Malcolm

 

[Jim Hargrove]

Fascinating!  Thanks to Bart and Malcolm!

[Jim Hargrove]

Thanks again to Bart for that important Garrison doc apparently dictated by Penn Jones, but I'm getting confused.  Why is there no mention of anyone behind a wooden fence in Carr's testimony at the Shaw trial prosecuted by Garrison?  Here's the relevant portion of the transcript of Carr's statements provided by John Butler (emphasis, I assume, from Mr. Butler):

“A: Yes, I was on the Seventh Floor of the New Courthouse Building that was under con- struction at that time, located on Houston and Commerce, facing Dealey Plaza.
Q: Approximately what time were you on the Seventh Floor of that building facing Dealey Plaza?
A: Sir, I can't recall the exact time, but it was at the time that the parade was coming down towards Dealey Plaza. I did not have a watch at the time.
Q: Were you in a position where you could see the parade?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Do you recall seeing anything unusual happening?
A: Yes, I do.
Q: Would you tell us what happened.
A: At the time the parade came down towards -- going to the School Book Depository, Dealey Plaza would have been to my left where I was standing, and at the Fifth Floor of the School Book Depository I noticed a man at the third window, this man was dressed -- he had on a light hat, and I saw this man later going down Houston Street, to the corner of Commerce, and then turned toward town on Commerce, and at that time before this happened I heard a single shot which sounded like a small arms, maybe a pistol, and I immediately, immediately there was a slight pause and immediately after that I heard three rifle shots in succession, they seemed to be fired from an automatic rifle and they came – “

” Q: Would you tell us what you observed.
A: Should I point it out, sir?
Q: Yes.
A: At this point right here, at this School Book Depository there was a Rambler Station Wagon there with a rack on the back, built on the top of this.
Q: Which way was the station wagon facing?
A: It was parked on the wrong side of the street, next to the School Book Depository heading north.
Q: North being the top of the photomap, north is the top as you have indicated?
A: North is the top, and it was headed in this direction towards the railroad tracks, and immediately after the shooting there was three men that emerged from behind the School Book Depository, there was a Latin, I can't say whether he was Spanish, Cuban, but he was real dark-complected, stepped out and opened the door, there was two men entered that station wagon, and the Latin drove it north on Houston.

 

 

[Tony Krome]

3 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Thanks again to Bart for that important Garrison doc apparently dictated by Penn Jones, but I'm getting confused.  Why is there no mention of anyone behind a wooden fence in Carr's testimony at the Shaw trial prosecuted by Garrison? 

Because he never saw that;

Shaw Trial;

Carr: "I saw these people come out from behind the School Book Depository and I am going to try to make this clear to you so where you can understand it, from where I was at I could not tell whether they came out this side entrance here, there is a side entrance to the School Book Depository, or whether they came from behind it, but they came either from the side entrance or they came from behind it, and got into this station wagon."

I'd say Penn misinterpreted

[John Butler]

Is there a side entrance on Houston Street?  I dont know of any other than the fire escape.

I was going to make a comment on the various versions of things Carr has said,  But, I see Jim has already done that.  There is more to it than just one difference.

[Ray Mitcham]

5 hours ago, John Butler said:

Is there a side entrance on Houston Street?  I dont know of any other than the fire escape.

 

No. Look at the TSBD 1st floor plan.

Edited April 8, 2019 by Ray Mitcham

[Jim Hargrove]

John and Ray,

John A., who has been inside the TSBD numerous times, told me there WAS a side entrance to the building, but it led to the basement, not the first floor.

[John Butler]

Jim,

There were two stair entrances to the basement on the first floor.  Those are on the TSBD floor plan.  I have read that there were no outside entrances to the basement.  None is shown on this floor plan. 

The passenger elevator goes to the basement according to this floor plan.

Where was Roy Truly's office and Bill Shelley's office on the first floor.  The first floor plan doesn't list whose office is on the first floor.

The only exit to Houston Street is the fire escape exit located on each floor.  The offices up to the 4th floor were the location for the fire escape exit.  These were located where the middle set of windows were on the east or Houston Street side.

Since I have just noticed the stairs from the basement in the northwest corner of the TSBD leading to the basement I think that is the best way to leave the building for the assassins.

Down the passenger elevator to the basement and out the overhead door at the northwest corner or, the door in the middle of the north face out to the loading dock.  This would be in time to be seen by Richard Carr directly after the shooting.  Which means the probably left the 6th floor before the shooting.  They had staged their show and then left.

If Carr is saying they left from an exit on the Houston Street side then it must be the fire escape located in the big office on the first floor.

[Jim Hargrove]

John,

The floor plan you posted above is of the first floor, not the basement, and so we can't use it to determine whether there was an exterior exit from the basement.  I'm quite certain that John A. told me there was indeed an exterior side exit from the basement.  I searched, but I haven't yet found a basement floor plan.

[John Butler]

I think you can see a door under the fire escape in this photo.  It is very vague.  It appears to be under the fire escape.  This could be the entrance Carr talks about.  I can't see providing the company bosses a fire escape exit without also providing one on the 1st floor.

[John Butler]

Jim,

Thought I had a basement floor plan but, don't.  I've searched also and there may not be one.  Somewhere, my memory is probably faulty here, I thought I had a photo showing the fire escape at sidewalk level on Houston Street.  It showed if I am not wrong a basement entrance.  But, this was a different fire escape structure shown that appears to be different from the 1963 version.  I maybe entirely wrong and this photo shows the north face of the TSBD and the fire escape is no longer on Houston Street.

Here is one of the photos of that fire escape.