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“The lights all went out,” and the elevators stopped while JFK was murdered. Shelley and Lovelady were near the bottom of the back staircase, by the electrical panel... and Vickie Adams saw them ... until everyone's story changed...


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11 minutes ago, John Butler said:

tree-tramps-fire-escape-door-maybe.jpg

I think you can see a door under the fire escape in this photo.  It is very vague.  It appears to be under the fire escape.  This could be the entrance Carr talks about.  I can't see providing the company bosses a fire escape exit without also providing one on the 1st floor.

There is no entrance to the basement under the fire escape

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claviger

 

 

2/8/16

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The entrances and exits of the Texas School Book Depository in November 22, 1963, along with the stairs and elevators, have always been an interesting sub-topic to me. IF, as many contend, there were other shooters in the TSBD, they would have had

 

The following Walkthrough of the Texas School Book Depository was written for the March, 2008 volume of The Dealey Plaza Echo, the journal of the British Assassination Research group: Dealey Plaza UK. It ran exclusively in that journal, and many months later put, this version was put on-line by Jerry Dealey. Back issues of The Dealey Plaza Echo are available at the Mary Farrell Foundation web site: www.MaryFerrell.org. (To find this article, do a search on the term “Elevator”.

"In the second glass doors from this lobby area, there is a “Will Call” counter (circle), with a half door and a latch which swings towards the entrance. To the left of this lobby area, were a set of stairs that went into the basement. There was no outside access to the basement."

This is the article where I got the notion there were no exits from the basement to the outside.  It fits well with the 1st floor plan.

Edited by John Butler
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6 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

There is no entrance to the basement under the fire escape

I didn't say there was.  This would be the exit to Houston Street.

BTW, What evidence do you use to say that what Carr said about two men and the picket fence is wrong and did not happen?

Edited by John Butler
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1 hour ago, John Butler said:

Jim,

There were two stair entrances to the basement on the first floor.  Those are on the TSBD floor plan.  I have read that there were no outside entrances to the basement.  None is shown on this floor plan. 

The passenger elevator goes to the basement according to this floor plan.

Where was Roy Truly's office and Bill Shelley's office on the first floor.  The first floor plan doesn't list whose office is on the first floor.

The only exit to Houston Street is the fire escape exit located on each floor.  The offices up to the 4th floor were the location for the fire escape exit.  These were located where the middle set of windows were on the east or Houston Street side.

fire-escape-TSBD-1.jpg

Since I have just noticed the stairs from the basement in the northwest corner of the TSBD leading to the basement I think that is the best way to leave the building for the assassins.

Down the passenger elevator to the basement and out the overhead door at the northwest corner or, the door in the middle of the north face out to the loading dock.  This would be in time to be seen by Richard Carr directly after the shooting.  Which means the probably left the 6th floor before the shooting.  They had staged their show and then left.

If Carr is saying they left from an exit on the Houston Street side then it must be the fire escape located in the big office on the first floor.

The exterior stairs to the North East of the TSBD are up from Houston Street onto the loading dock, not down to a basement.  There must be a basement as the note  to the interior North West of he first floor shows stairs "up from the basement," the elevators show "Basement to 7th floor", and in the lower centre of the first floor layout it shows stairs marked ~"up from basement" The ground floor wouldn't need a  fire escape door as there are already sufficient doors.

Edited by Ray Mitcham
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4 minutes ago, John Butler said:

I didn't say there was.  This would be the exit to Houston Street.

BTW, What evidence do you use to say that what Carr said about two men and the picket fence is wrong and did not happen?

There is no door under the fire escape

When Carr said;

"I saw these people come out from behind the School Book Depository and I am going to try to make this clear to you so where you can understand it, from where I was at I could not tell whether they came out this side entrance here, there is a side entrance to the School Book Depository, or whether they came from behind it, but they came either from the side entrance or they came from behind it, and got into this station wagon."

If in fact Carr saw the same two men run from the picket fence to Houston, he would be certain that they ran around the rear of the TSBD and onto Houston. In the above, he is uncertain as to whether they were actually inside the building or not when they appeared on Houston.

I can't imagine two baddies entering the west side of the TSBD from the picket fence, run through the building to exit the side entrance to appear on Houston

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34 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

There is no door under the fire escape

When Carr said;

"I saw these people come out from behind the School Book Depository and I am going to try to make this clear to you so where you can understand it, from where I was at I could not tell whether they came out this side entrance here, there is a side entrance to the School Book Depository, or whether they came from behind it, but they came either from the side entrance or they came from behind it, and got into this station wagon."

If in fact Carr saw the same two men run from the picket fence to Houston, he would be certain that they ran around the rear of the TSBD and onto Houston. In the above, he is uncertain as to whether they were actually inside the building or not when they appeared on Houston.

I can't imagine two baddies entering the west side of the TSBD from the picket fence, run through the building to exit the side entrance to appear on Houston

Once again I didn't say there was!  Can you read?  Or, does the fixed notions in your head the only thing you can respond too?

Carr simply doesn't mention at the Shaw trial in 1969 what he had mentioned to Penn Jones earlier, in 1967.  Thanks Bart Kamp.  That doesn't negate what he said to Penn Jones.  And, from what he said at the Clay Shaw trial it would be hard to conclude that the incident at the picket fence is meaningless.  If you recall what I had posted from Crossfire, 2013 ed.  Carr was under pressure during that time, life threatening pressure.  He may have been careful in what he was saying. 

I don't have any problem with this.  I have more problems with the negro/latin and the man who walked south on Houston Street and then walked up either Main or Commerce.   

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2 minutes ago, John Butler said:

Once again I didn't say there was!  Can you read? 

Didn't you write this?

 I think you can see a door under the fire escape in this photo.  It is very vague.  It appears to be under the fire escape.

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1 hour ago, Tony Krome said:

Didn't you write this?

 I think you can see a door under the fire escape in this photo.  It is very vague.  It appears to be under the fire escape.

It is not a basement door.  It is a door into the main office on the 1st floor of the TSBD.

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49 minutes ago, Paul Bacon said:

Pictures and floor plan of the basement can be found here.

https://www.tpaak.com/jfk-crime-scen

I used the website to familiarize myself during the discussion regarding using the pass elevator as a means of escape.  I see no exit to the street from the basement.

Thanks Paul,

I agree.  Upon seeing this I realized that I have this somewhere.  I going to have to do some serious file reorganization.

basement-floor-plan-tsbd-1.jpg

This still makes the best Passenger Elevator escape.  Down to the basement and up the Main Stairs to leave at the rear of the building (north face).  Or, if Richard Carr can be trusted out through the fire escape door from the middle office (Roy Truly?) on the 1st floor to the sidewalk on Houston Street.

Edited by John Butler
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Carr does mention shooting from the Grassy Knoll at the Clay Shaw trial.  But, he does not say he saw two men there.

FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. GARRISON:
Q: Just one more question, Mr. Carr. Would you just take your -- would you just take your time and in your own words describe with reference to the photomap the direc- tion of that shot which you observed furrowing on through the grass, from what area to what area, could you describe that, from what point to what point?
A: The shot was fired from somewhere in here.
Q: Just a minute, sir. This is going to be written down, what do you mean by "in here," from somewhere to where?
A: From this direction in here that shot was fired.
Q: You are indicating, to begin with, the grassy knoll area by the picket fence. Is that right?
A: Yes, sir, this is the first thing that attracted by attention as I explained to you before.
Q: But the direction would have been from there to where?
A: To in this vicinity right here (indicating).
Q: Well, if you carry the line down, would you identify some building or something on the map so that we will know precisely what you mean?
A: Yes, I will say the Criminal Courts Building right here (indicating).
Q: If the shot would have continued, you mean to say --
MR. DYMOND: I object to leading the witness, Your Honor.
BY MR. GARRISON:
Q: I will rephrase the question. If the shot had continued --
A: If the shot had not hit the grass, it would have hit the Criminal Courts Building, sir.
MR. GARRISON: That's all I have.
FURTHER RECROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Just a couple of questions. Mr. Carr, is it your testimony that you saw this bullet furrowing through the grass?
A: I saw the grass come up.
Q: You saw the grass come up?
A: Yes.
Q: And from that you are telling us from what direction the shot came and where it would have gone if it would have kept on going. Is that right?
A: Yes. "

Carr's condition at the trial may have caused him to be wary of answering questions fully.

 

Edited by John Butler
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3 hours ago, John Butler said:

It is not a basement door.  It is a door into the main office on the 1st floor of the TSBD.

There was, and there is  not, a door on the East side of the TSBD. There is, however, an opening leading up steps, to the old loading bay area, to the right of which is  a new building which I believe house part of the museum.

Edited by Ray Mitcham
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4 hours ago, John Butler said:

Or, if Richard Carr can be trusted out through the fire escape door from the middle office (Roy Truly?) on the 1st floor to the sidewalk on Houston Street.

I've been trying to help you, there is no door on the first floor, east side, under the fire escape, No exits from Truly or Shelley's office to the Houston St side.

Access to the fire escape appears to be from the 2nd floor to the 7th floor only

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The-Three-Tramps-November-22-1963-2.jpg

"I'm trying to help".  Really?

I have looked at all the photos of the TSBD, Houston Street side, I can locate and, this is the only image that has anything like a door in the glass block décor that is shown on the Elm and Houston Street sides.  There are no doors shown on the 1st floor plan in Truly's or Shelley's offices.  They do show the fire escape in Truly's office at the mid-window position.  This is about where the door image is in this photo. 

There appears to be a door there.  If that's just an illusion then Richard Carr's statement about men leaving from a side door on Houston Street doesn't hold water.  It could be the lower part of the fire escape structure there.  Others say the steps on the fire escape were not lowered.  The Hughes film may show the fire escape stairs lowered to Houston Street.

But, there appears to be a door there.  For the time being I am going to go with a door and Richard Carr's statements.  I don't mind changing my mind if clearer evidence is shown to indicate there is no door there.

Edited by John Butler
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1 hour ago, John Butler said:

The-Three-Tramps-November-22-1963-2.jpg

"I'm trying to help".  Really?

I have looked at all the photos of the TSBD, Houston Street side, I can locate, and this is the only image that has anything like a door in the glass block décor that is shown on the Elm and Houston Street sides.  There are no doors shown on the 1st floor plan in Truly's or Shelley's offices.  They do show the fire escape in Truly's office at the mid-window position.  This is about where the door image is in this photo. 

There appears to be a door there.  If that's just an illusion then Richard Carr's statement about men leaving from a side door on Houston Street won't hold water.  It could be the lower part of the fire escape structure there.  Others say the steps on the fire escape were not lowered.  The Hughes film may show the fire escape stairs lowered to Houston Street.

But, there appears to be a door there.  For the time being I am going to go with a door and Richard Carr's statements.  I don't mind changing my mind if clearer evidence is shown to indicate there is no door there.

1_2bb96c53e199256a0f528b1ea4a71707.png?E

Edited by Tony Krome
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