“The lights all went out,” and the elevators stopped while JFK was murdered. Shelley and Lovelady were near the bottom of the back staircase, by the electrical panel... and Vickie Adams saw them ... until everyone's story changed...

[Andrej Stancak]

Sorry, gentlemen:

How can you label this shirt CE151 as brown? This colour can be pink, reddish, light red but not brown.

In my view, the CE150 was brown:

 

[Tony Krome]

Same "Briarloom" by ENRO brand, different range, but shows brown and tan colours offered;

[Sandy Larsen]

15 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

How can you label this shirt CE151 as brown? This colour can be pink, reddish, light red but not brown.

Maybe it's a cultural thing, but that swatch of cloth definitely looks like a shade of brown to me. Light brown or a tan to be more precise. Definitely not a shade of red or pink.

(Though, of course there is definitely some red in it, because all browns have red.)

 

Edited April 22, 2019 by Sandy Larsen

[Sandy Larsen]

Shades of brown:

 

Shades of pink:

 

[Andrej Stancak]

It seems that my culture-based interpretation of the colour of CE151 is actually the same as that of Lee Oswald:

• Cpt. Will Fritz's notes, dated 23rd November 1963: “Says 11-22-63 rode bus/got trans same out of pocket…Changed shirts + tr. Put in dirty clothes—long sleeve red sh + gray tr.” (retrieved from https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=29103#relPageId=7&tab=page)
• Cpt. Will Fritz's narrative  "Interrogations of Lee Harvey Oswald": “During this conversation he told me he reached his home by cab and changed both his shirt and trousersbefore going to the show” (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=29104#relPageId=6&tab=page).

• Secret Service Inspector Thomas Kelley (CD87 p375).: “He said he went home, changed his trousers and shirt, put his shirt in a drawer. This was a red shirt, and he put it in his dirty clothes. He described the shirt as having a button down collar and of reddish color. The trousers were grey colored.” ("First interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald", retrieved from http://www.prayer-man.com/secret-service/thomas-j-kelley/#lightbox[group]/0/ ).
• FBI agent James Bookhout:  "stated that after arriving at his apartment he changed his shirt and trousers, because they were dirty. He described his dirty clothes as being a reddish colored, long sleeved shirt with a button-down collar and gray colored trousers"  (Commission Document 5, page 100, retrieved from https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10406#relPageId=103&tab=page).

 Besides, there is Buell Wesley Frazier's recall of the shirt which Lee wore on Friday morning:

• Special Agents Bardwell Odum and Gibbon McNeely interviewed Buell Wesley Frazier and recorded the following: "As Frazier recalls, Oswald was wearing a reddish shirtand a gray jacket, waist length." (WCH vol. 24, 408-410, retrieved from https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0213b.htm).

[Andrej Stancak]

Can "salmon" or "Indian red" or even "redwood" be the correct name for the colour of CE151?

Edited April 22, 2019 by Andrej Stancak

[Sandy Larsen]

If people see this color:

Which color group are they more likely to think of, the shades of brown:

Or the shades of red:

 

I say the shades of brown.

Though apparently at least three people think of reds.

 

Edited April 22, 2019 by Sandy Larsen

[Andrej Stancak]

Redwood would be the closest from the red range, not sure about the names of brown colours. 

Maybe this could be of help?

[Jim Hargrove]

Andrej,

Those alleged descriptions of Harvey Oswald himself calling it a red shirt are interesting, but CE151 still looks brown to me.  Both Baker and Whaley called it a brown shirt and that doesn’t strike me as unreasonable.  What would be unreasonable is calling it a “white” shirt, which is what Mrs. Reid testified about.  A white t-shirt was shown in the closeup capture of the fellow on the sixth floor from Dillard’s film.

[Andrej Stancak]

Jim:

once  Officer Marrion Baker needs to be brought to support the lift escape theory, something is wrong. There was no second-floor lunchroom encounter between Baker and Lee Oswald, so his referral to a brown shirt which he allegedly saw on Lee Oswald does not sound credible. Bart discovered a few months ago James Hosty's original notes taken during the very first interrogation of Lee Oswald - this authentic record says that Lee went up to the second floor from the first floor (Domino room from where he saw two Afro-American employees passing by), bought Coke, returned back to have lunch and there he was when shots rang out (or when he heard the excitement due to motorcade turning to Houston street). He moved quickly toward the glass door and out and while he stood in the doorway he was photographed by Wiegman and Darnell. At no time point after he bought the Coke did he need to return to the second floor lunchroom to buy another Coke. 

Marrion Baker was told what to say in his reports and since the dark brown shirt was the one which the FBI needed to have pinned to Oswald (the fibres story explained in Pat Speer's book), Baker told he had seen Oswald wearing a brown shirt. He also said he has seen two white men while moving through the first floor, however, there were no white men there at that moment except Baker and Truly.

  

[Jim Hargrove]

Andrej,

Little in this case matters if we don’t know the exact timings. 

If you’ve spent months setting up Harvey Oswald as the patsy, do you really think you would want him to appear on the steps outside the Book Depository, standing there for minute after minute to be seen and/or photographed by all kinds of building employees and spectators? 

Bill Shelley appears to have been involved in all of this.  What do you think he would have told Oswald had he seen him on the steps? Obviously, he would have said to get back inside.

I certainly wouldn’t expect to see Shelley admit that Oswald was on the steps, but wouldn’t you think some other people would have seen him?  If Harvey Oswald did go out on those steps, it couldn’t have been for long.  If he had, someone would have surely seen him.  Where did he go from the steps?

To the Nash Rambler?  To McWatters’ bus?  No, it's too early.  You have to look at the exact timings.  He probably went back to where he was told to be: in the second floor lunchroom.  One of the reasons this guy was made the patsy was that he had proven that he could follow even difficult orders.  He cut his wrist to fake a suicide attempt so the Soviets wouldn’t kick him out of Russia.  I don't think lowly motorcycle cop Marrion Baker was in on anything. I think he probably told the truth.

Witnesses saw the white-shirted Oswald get into a Nash Rambler.  Where did he get the red/brown shirt to put away in the rooming house? Witnesses saw the brown-shirted Oswald ride the bus and taxi.  Perhaps you don’t believe that version really happened, but would you like to go over the evidence for it?

Finally, I can’t remember who it was, but didn’t someone say that Baker said in police headquarters when he saw Oswald “that’s the guy I saw in the building,” or words like that?  That was before these various reports were made, you know, those reports that appeared 35 years after the fact.

Edited April 22, 2019 by Jim Hargrove

[Paul Jolliffe]

19 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Jim:

once  Officer Marrion Baker needs to be brought to support the lift escape theory, something is wrong. There was no second-floor lunchroom encounter between Baker and Lee Oswald, so his referral to a brown shirt which he allegedly saw on Lee Oswald does not sound credible. Bart discovered a few months ago James Hosty's original notes taken during the very first interrogation of Lee Oswald - this authentic record says that Lee went up to the second floor from the first floor (Domino room from where he saw two Afro-American employees passing by), bought Coke, returned back to have lunch and there he was when shots rang out (or when he heard the excitement due to motorcade turning to Houston street). He moved quickly toward the glass door and out and while he stood in the doorway he was photographed by Wiegman and Darnell. At no time point after he bought the Coke did he need to return to the second floor lunchroom to buy another Coke. 

Marrion Baker was told what to say in his reports and since the dark brown shirt was the one which the FBI needed to have pinned to Oswald (the fibres story explained in Pat Speer's book), Baker told he had seen Oswald wearing a brown shirt. He also said he has seen two white men while moving through the first floor, however, there were no white men there at that moment except Baker and Truly.

  

Andrej,

You and I agree that the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter between Baker/Truly and "Oswald" was phony. But if we re-read Baker's first day affidavit carefully, we see that he referred not to a shirt, but to a "brown jacket". While it is theoretically possible he mistook an untucked shirt over a white t-shirt for a jacket, it is not very likely. Men customarily wore white t-shirts underneath their shirts in the early 1960's. In my view, Baker would have recognized a shirt over a t-shirt at once - that's what men wore then!

But that is not what he wrote - he wrote "brown jacket". 

Which leads me to suspect Baker did not encounter our "Oswald" - neither in the 2nd floor lunchroom, nor on the 3rd or 4th floor near the stairs. (Whether Baker briefly encountered "Oswald" on the first floor as Baker entered the TSBD is another matter entirely. One that I shall not discuss here.)

Further, Baker's last lines in his 11/22/63 hand-written affidavit indicate that he clearly wanted to place in the record a description of the man he encountered - the suspect. Since Baker completed his affidavit within 15 feet of the then handcuffed "Oswald", and since Baker did not identify "Oswald" as the same suspect he encountered, it is reasonable to suppose that "Oswald" and the suspect Baker encountered were two different people. 

And therefore, I think in his own bumbled way, Marion Baker was initially honest, but was later coerced into narrative he related in his Warren Commission testimony. Which by September of 1964, he could no longer keep straight in his head. 

To Jim Hargrove - you are correct that later on Marvin Johnson completed an affidavit in which he claimed that Marion Baker had identified the handcuffed "Oswald" as the same man he'd encountered a few hours earlier, but nowhere in Baker's own affidavit does that vital, crucial, extremely important identification appear! Instead, we get just the opposite - Baker went out of his way to provide a physical description of his suspect (one that does not match "Oswald") but Baker DID NOT write that it was the same man just a few feet away at that very moment! The physical description was irrelevant - all Baker needed to write was "that's the guy!" 

But he did not!

Remember, at that moment "Oswald" was still wearing his (brownish) shirt over his t-shirt. And at that moment, Baker could see him as he completed his affidavit - yet Baker wrote "jacket", not "shirt"! If Baker really encountered our "Oswald", then all Baker had to do was to move his eyeballs to see what "Oswald" was wearing at that very moment!

It's a shirt, not a jacket!

http://time.com/3804560/an-end-to-conspiracy-rare-photo-of-lee-harvey-oswalds-arrest-suggests-why-hes-guilty/

 

[Andrej Stancak]

Thanks, Paul, for your astute comments. Yes, Baker did not identify right away (his affidavit from November 22) Lee Oswald, who was in DPD custody already, as the man whom he allegedly encountered in an open-space area of the 3rd or 4th floor. He added a "lt brown jacket"  to his first affidavit as the cloth the man had on himself which could mean a light-brown jacket. I just do not know what Baker's first affidavit means. 

Superintendent Roy Truly also saw a light-coloured shirt on Oswald on Friday, 22nd of November:

This document is available via a link in The Anatomy of the Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 23, 2019 by Andrej Stancak

[Sandy Larsen]

5 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Andrej,

You and I agree that the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter between Baker/Truly and "Oswald" was phony. But if we re-read Baker's first day affidavit carefully, we see that he referred not to a shirt, but to a "brown jacket". While it is theoretically possible he mistook an untucked shirt over a white t-shirt for a jacket, it is not very likely. Men customarily wore white t-shirts underneath their shirts in the early 1960's. In my view, Baker would have recognized a shirt over a t-shirt at once - that's what men wore then!

But that is not what he wrote - he wrote "brown jacket". 

Which leads me to suspect Baker did not encounter our "Oswald" - neither in the 2nd floor lunchroom, nor on the 3rd or 4th floor near the stairs. (Whether Baker briefly encountered "Oswald" on the first floor as Baker entered the TSBD is another matter entirely. One that I shall not discuss here.)

Further, Baker's last lines in his 11/22/63 hand-written affidavit indicate that he clearly wanted to place in the record a description of the man he encountered - the suspect. Since Baker completed his affidavit within 15 feet of the then handcuffed "Oswald", and since Baker did not identify "Oswald" as the same suspect he encountered, it is reasonable to suppose that "Oswald" and the suspect Baker encountered were two different people. 

And therefore, I think in his own bumbled way, Marion Baker was initially honest, but was later coerced into narrative he related in his Warren Commission testimony. Which by September of 1964, he could no longer keep straight in his head. 

To Jim Hargrove - you are correct that later on Marvin Johnson completed an affidavit in which he claimed that Marion Baker had identified the handcuffed "Oswald" as the same man he'd encountered a few hours earlier, but nowhere in Baker's own affidavit does that vital, crucial, extremely important identification appear! Instead, we get just the opposite - Baker went out of his way to provide a physical description of his suspect (one that does not match "Oswald") but Baker DID NOT write that it was the same man just a few feet away at that very moment! The physical description was irrelevant - all Baker needed to write was "that's the guy!" 

But he did not!

Remember, at that moment "Oswald" was still wearing his (brownish) shirt over his t-shirt. And at that moment, Baker could see him as he completed his affidavit - yet Baker wrote "jacket", not "shirt"! If Baker really encountered our "Oswald", then all Baker had to do was to move his eyeballs to see what "Oswald" was wearing at that very moment!

It's a shirt, not a jacket!

http://time.com/3804560/an-end-to-conspiracy-rare-photo-of-lee-harvey-oswalds-arrest-suggests-why-hes-guilty/

 

 

Nice analysis, Paul.

 

[Jim Hargrove]

To Paul J....

Thanks for the nicely-written post on Baker!  Can you tell me how you know that Baker was right next to “Oswald” when he was writing his 11/22 affidavit?