“The lights all went out,” and the elevators stopped while JFK was murdered. Shelley and Lovelady were near the bottom of the back staircase, by the electrical panel... and Vickie Adams saw them ... until everyone's story changed...

[Steve Thomas]

On 5/21/2019 at 9:08 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

I therefore also believe that it was Lt. Erich Kaminsky who stopped Oswald at the front door.

 

Deleted

Steve Thomas

Edited March 3, 2023 by Steve Thomas

[Sandy Larsen]

45 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Sandy,

Just as an intellectual exercise, I once tried to determine who was the first officer in a position of authority that ordered that the TSBD be sealed, and when that took place.

(Although this question does have some implications).

Will Fritz, Captain of the Homicide Bureau, J. Herbert Sawyer, Police Inspector, and Charles Lumpkin, Deputy Chief of Police all claimed that they were the ones who ordered the building sealed.

The earliest I can tell; based on the Dispatch Tapes, it was Lumpkin. And based on those tapes, that didn't happen until at least 12:49.

If Oswald was stopped at the front door by a policeman who asked him for his name, address and telephone number, and that policeman was Erich Kaminsky, could Oswald have made the seven blocks to the bus at Elm and Griffin where he was picked up by Cecil McWatters. If McWatters left St. Paul and Elm at 12:36, did it take him at least 13 minutes to drive the four blocks to Elm and Griffin?

If Oswald didn't leave the TSBD until after 12:49, how long would it have taken him to walk the seven blocks to Elm and Griffin?

 

After the assassination, George Lumpkin returned to the TSBD and took command there.

DPD Archives Box 14, Folder# 4, Item# 10 page 22.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box14.htm

According to the Dispatch Tapes, George Lumpkin had arrived at the TSBD by 12:49 PM

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/

15 (Captain C.E. Talbert): “15 is at the scene. We... the building's the Old Purse Company on the east side of Houston. Somebody cut off the back side, will you? Make sure nobody leaves there.”

Dispatcher: “10-4, 15”

15: “15's in charge down here. Correction 5's (Deputy Chief Lumpkin) in charge.”

WC testimony of Will Fritz

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/fritz1.htm

 

Mr. BALL. Did you go directly to a building?
Mr. FRITZ. Directly to the Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr. BALL. What time did you arrive there?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, sir; we arrived there---we arrived at the hospital at 12:45, if you want that time, and at the scene of the offense at 12:58.
Mr. BALL. 12:58; the Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes.

Mr. FRITZ. The man who did the shooting was in the building. So, we, of course, took our shotguns and immediately entered the building and searched the building to see if we could find him.
Mr. BALL. Were there guards on the doors of the building at that time?
Mr. FRITZ. I am not sure, but I don't--there has been some question about that, but the reason I don't think that--this may differ with someone else, but I am going to tell you what I know.
Mr. BALL. All right.
Mr. McCLOY. By all means.
Mr. FRITZ. After I arrived one of the officers asked me if I would like to have the building sealed and I told him I would.

 

WC testimony of J. Herbert Sawyer

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/sawyer_j.htm

 

Mr. SAWYER. Well, I didn't see anything that was out of the ordinary, so I immediately came back downstairs to check the security on the building.
Mr. BELIN. When you say check the security on the building, what do you mean by that?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, to be sure it was covered off properly, and then posted two men on the front entrance with instructions not to let anyone in or out.
Mr. BELIN. What about the rear entrance?
Mr. SAWYER. We'll, I also had the sergeant go around and check to be sure that all of those were covered, although he told me that they were already covered.
Mr. BELIN. When was the order given to cover the front entrance of the building?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, they had it covered when I got there. There were officers all around the front. The only thing I don't think had been done by the time I got there, was the instructions not to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. All right, now, did you give the instructions not to let anyone in or out?
Mr. SAWYER. I did.
Mr. BELIN. Did you give those instructions before or after you came down from the fourth floor or top floor?
Mr. SAWYER. After I got down.

 

WC testimony of Cecil McWatters, Bus driver

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/mcwatters.htm

 

Mr. BALL - What time are you due, according to your schedule, to leave the corner of St. Paul and Elm?
Mr. McWATTERS - 12:36.

Mr. BALL - Well then, back to *the question, what time did you leave that day, leave Elm and St. Paul?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I would have to say I left there around, in other words, 12:36 because I know I was on good time when I come in there.

Mr. BALL - You were beyond Field and before you got to Griffin?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is right. It was along about even with Griffin Street before I was stopped in the traffic.

Mr. McWATTERS - I picked up within a period of from the time I picked up two or three passengers, I can't recall just exactly which stop. I have after I leave St. Paul Street, I have Ervay Street and Akard Street, and Field Street which would be three stops where I can't recall that, exactly where I discharged or picked up passengers, because I had the few passengers that I had which I came into town with.
Mr. BALL - Well then, do you remember picking up a passenger at a place other than at a bus stop as you went down Elm?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
As I left Field Street, I pulled out into the, in other words, the first lane of traffic and traffic was beginning to back up then; in other words, it was blocked further down the street, and after I pulled out in it for a short distance there I come to a complete stop, and when I did, someone come up and beat on the door of the bus, and that is about even with Griffin Street.
Mr. BALL - And that is about seven or eight blocks from the Texas Book Depository Building, isn't it?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir. It would be seven, I would say that is seven, it would be about seven blocks.

 

Steve Thomas

 

Steve,

Love your experiment. It seems to discredit the official narrative, unless the bus was stuck in exceedingly bad traffic.

I checked with Google Maps and found that the distance from the TSBD to Elm and Griffin to be close to 0.3 miles. At a fast pace Oswald could have easily made that in 5 minutes. So the soonest he could have arrived was at 12:49 + 0:05 = 12:54.

This means that it must have taken McWatters at least 12:54 - 12:36 = 18 minutes to go those last four blocks.

But there may be a caveat. Some time ago I made a timeline of the Tippit shooting, and ultimately had no choice but conclude that the timestamps on the dictabelts had been altered. Seven minutes had been added to each timestamp. Soon thereafter I learned that Jim Hargrove and John Armstrong had done the same and come up with pretty much the same conclusion. I remember wondering at the time at what point the altered timestamps began and when they ended. And how the transitions between correct-time and altered-time were  handled. Could it be that all the timestamps for the whole affair been changed? (That would have been a big job!)

Just for fun let's suppose that the times are altered even as early as when Lumpkin arrived. Subtracting that 7 minutes from his arrival time would give a corrected arrival time of 12:49 - 0:07 = 12:42. Oswald could have arrived at Elm and Griffin as early as 12:42 + 0:05 = 12:47. And so McWatters bus must have taken at least 12:47 - 12:36 = 11 minutes to go those last four blocks.

An 11 minute delay is a lot easier to believe. But I'll be the first to admit that it's hard to believe that the FBI altered the timestamps so many minutes before they had to to give Oswald time to (supposedly) travel there and kill Tippit.

 

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

This means that it must have taken McWatters at least 12:54 - 12:36 = 18 minutes to go those last four blocks.

 

Sandy,

 

The thing that clinched it for me was the difference in Interrogation reports that Fritz had drawn up.

Look at the difference between the:

DPD Archives Box 1, Folder# 15, Item# 1, page 5

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box1.htm

and

DPD Archives Box 15, Item# 1, Item# 111, page 6

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box15.htm

 

Fritz, or someone, had manually inserted the info about the bus transfer, and that accounted for the increase in page numbers from page 5 to page 6. For some reason, they had to get Oswald on that bus. To discredit Roger Craig's account of the Nash Rambler perhaps?

 

Steve Thomas

 

[Jim Hargrove]

But whether you believe in the bus and taxi “Oswald” or the Nash Rambler “Oswald,” or both, the evidence we have shows Oswald(s) leaving the TSBD long before Lumpkin and the others started questioning people leaving the front door.   The bus and taxi Oswald arrived at his rooming house just 10 minutes after Lumpkin ordered the front door challenges, and other evidence shows he boarded the bus around 12:40.  Roger Craig said he saw the Nash Rambler Oswald enter the car also at 12:40, nearly ten minutes before Lumpkin’s arrival.  There is even a photo showing “12:40” on the big TSBD outdoor clock and apparently showing the Nash Rambler on Elm.

Sandy raised a good point about how the FBI altered the police radio Dictabelts.  (Dictabelts themselves can’t be altered.  The audio had to be transferred to tape, edited, and then re-recorded on a Dictabelt machine.)  However, the evidence seems to show that the Dictabelts began to be falsified at about the actual time of the Tippit shooting, circa 1:06 pm, to give Classic Oswald® sufficient time to walk .8 mile from his rooming house to 10th and Patton.

Look at the official transcript of DPD channel 1 (the primary channel) below.  Are we really to believe that between 1:04 and 1:18—less than an hour after JFK was assassinated—there were only 10 brief statements?  That’s less than one per minute!  Compare that chatter with what immediately went on before and after.  This is the time, I’m almost certain, for which the FBI altered the evidence.

[Steve Thomas]

22 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

  There is even a photo showing “12:40” on the big TSBD outdoor clock and apparently showing the Nash Rambler on Elm.

 

 Are we really to believe that between 1:04 and 1:18—less than an hour after JFK was assassinated—there were only 10 brief statements?  

This is the time, I’m almost certain, for which the FBI altered the evidence.

 

Jim,

 

I guess it's impossible to know if the Rambler shown in your photo is the same one that Craig said he saw; although in his Sheriff's report, he said his Rambler had a luggage rack on top.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/craig1.htm

Does the photo show a luggage rack? I can't really tell.

I agree with you about the tape transcripts. Somebody said that the tapes had been winnowed down to remove "routine transmissions".

The Police, (or the FBI) should have been forced to reveal "every" transmission that day, including the ones coming out of the Fairgrounds.

 

Steve Thomas

[Jim Hargrove]

Steve,

I can’t say that I see a luggage rack on the b&w photo either, but Paul Jolliffe posted this shot of a 1961 Nash Rambler station wagon, and the luggage rack doesn’t appear to be a very prominent feature.
 

[Paul Jolliffe]

5 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Sandy,

 

The thing that clinched it for me was the difference in Interrogation reports that Fritz had drawn up.

Look at the difference between the:

DPD Archives Box 1, Folder# 15, Item# 1, page 5

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box1.htm

and

DPD Archives Box 15, Item# 1, Item# 111, page 6

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box15.htm

 

Fritz, or someone, had manually inserted the info about the bus transfer, and that accounted for the increase in page numbers from page 5 to page 6. For some reason, they had to get Oswald on that bus. To discredit Roger Craig's account of the Nash Rambler perhaps?

 

Steve Thomas

 

Steve, 

I'll see your difference in Fritz interrogation reports and raise you one official, Warren Commission published transcript: I present to you CE 705. Page 408 on the printed transcript (page 48 when you scroll down here).

It reads "Disp. 10-4 603 and 602. 1:10 pm."

This is after the Tippit shooting!

And the WC was dumb enough to publish this transcript with the old time, "1:10 pm" still on it!

Somebody screwed up, the WC published it, and nobody caught it! But there it is to this day!

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/pdf/WH17_CE_705.pdf

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Steve, 

I'll see your difference in Fritz interrogation reports and raise you one official, Warren Commission published transcript: I present to you CE 705. Page 408 on the printed transcript (page 48 when you scroll down here).

It reads "Disp. 10-4 603 and 602. 1:10 pm."

This is after the Tippit shooting!

And the WC was dumb enough to publish this transcript with the old time, "1:10 pm" still on it!

Somebody screwed up, the WC published it, and nobody caught it! But there it is to this day!

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/pdf/WH17_CE_705.pdf

Paul,

 

If you go up a line or two, Ambulance 603 tells Dispatch that he is Code 5 out to Baylor.

That would be the Baylor University Medical Center.

According to the Dallas Police Radio Codes, Code 5 is "Enroute" and Code 6 is "Arrived".

http://www.bearcat1.com/radiotx.htm

Two pages later, on page 410 of that pdf, Ambulance 603 informs Dispatch that he has arrived at Baylor, and Dispatch acknowledges this at 1:23 PM.

 

If you go through those lines on page 408 that you pointed out, Ambulance 602 announces that he is Code 5, "Enroute", then he announces he is Code 6, has "Arrived", then he announces again that he is Code 5, "Enroute".

I'm not sure what that is all about, but you can see on the next page (page 409), that Ambulance 602 twice more calls in and tries to raise Dispatch.

On the next page (page 411), you can see Dispatch trying to respond to 602.

On the next page, (page 412), Dispatch asks Gerald Hill (#550/2) if he know what ambulance took Tippit, that "we had three going". (I'm not sure which three ambulances Dispatch is talking about here).

Hill responds that he was at 12th and Beckley, and saw an ambulance from Dudley Hughes pass in front of him and thought he might have Tippit. This is at 1:25.

Dispatch again tries to raise 602 on page 412.

I'm pretty sure 602 was from the Dudley Hughes Funeral Home. If my memory serves me right, at that time, the ambulance services in Dallas were stationed out of the funeral homes.

 

I'm pretty sure that the 1:10 time stamp in the transcripts is simply a typo on the part of the person doing the typing, because it comes after a 1:11 time stamp, a 1:15 time stamp, and a 1:16 time stamp on page 407.

 

Steve Thomas

Edited May 22, 2019 by Steve Thomas

[Paul Jolliffe]

Steve, 

I am not so sure it is a typo for a few reasons:

1. Three of the time stamps you pointed out have a parenthesis around them, whereas the "1:10 pm" time stamp does not, indicating to me that the transcriber of this transcript was probably looking at an annotated copy of the dispatch tapes, one that someone had marked with parentheses around the (changed) times. This is a general pattern - look at several time stamps over several pages around the Tippit shooting. There is one exception to this pattern, but still, it is a pattern.

I know that's speculative, but  . . .

2. Look at the bottom of page 408. There in black and white is an obviously changed time stamp. It now reads "1:19", yet the whiteout and the original time it hides are still clearly visible: 1:10. 

It is indisputable that the current "1:19" at the bottom of page 408 is typed over an earlier time. 

3. Finally, why would ambulances 602 and/or 603 be en route to Baylor? J.D. Tippit was taken to Methodist Hospital in Oak Cliff, not the Baylor Medical Center which was much closer to Dealey Plaza. I think you were trying to imply that because 602 and 603 responded on the extant transcript very soon after the report of the Tippit shooting that their calls to the dispatcher were, in fact, to pick up Tippit. While that may be so, it does not explain why one of them, 603, notified the dispatcher that they had arrived at Baylor.

That 603 ambulance could not have been responding to the shooting of J.D. Tippit. No ambulance took Tippit to Baylor Medical Center. I agree with you that a Dudley Hughes ambulance responded to the Tippit shooting report very soon after the 1:07 shooting, and it was probably 602 from Dudley Hughes, literally right around the corner. And therefore, the "1:10 pm" time stamp was probably accurate.

In any event, you and I agree that the type written transcripts almost certainly reflect the changes made to obscure the fact that Tippit was shot earlier than 1:15. I agree with those who believe the time was probably around 1:07 or 1:08. (Way too early for "Oswald" to arrived at 10th and Patton on foot from 1026 N. Beckley.)

 

[Jim Hargrove]

54 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Steve, 

I am not so sure it is a typo for a few reasons:

1. Three of the time stamps you pointed out have a parenthesis around them, whereas the "1:10 pm" time stamp does not, indicating to me that the transcriber of this transcript was probably looking at an annotated copy of the dispatch tapes, one that someone had marked with parentheses around the (changed) times. This is a general pattern - look at several time stamps over several pages around the Tippit shooting. There is one exception to this pattern, but still, it is a pattern.

I know that's speculative, but  . . .

2. Look at the bottom of page 408. There in black and white is an obviously changed time stamp. It now reads "1:19", yet the whiteout and the original time it hides are still clearly visible: 1:10. 

It is indisputable that the current "1:19" at the bottom of page 408 is typed over an earlier time. 

3. Finally, why would ambulances 602 and/or 603 be en route to Baylor? J.D. Tippit was taken to Methodist Hospital in Oak Cliff, not the Baylor Medical Center which was much closer to Dealey Plaza. I think you were trying to imply that because 602 and 603 responded on the extant transcript very soon after the report of the Tippit shooting that their calls to the dispatcher were, in fact, to pick up Tippit. While that may be so, it does not explain why one of them, 603, notified the dispatcher that they had arrived at Baylor.

That 603 ambulance could not have been responding to the shooting of J.D. Tippit. No ambulance took Tippit to Baylor Medical Center. I agree with you that a Dudley Hughes ambulance responded to the Tippit shooting report very soon after the 1:07 shooting, and it was probably 602 from Dudley Hughes, literally right around the corner. And therefore, the "1:10 pm" time stamp was probably accurate.

In any event, you and I agree that the type written transcripts almost certainly reflect the changes made to obscure the fact that Tippit was shot earlier than 1:15. I agree with those who believe the time was probably around 1:07 or 1:08. (Way too early for "Oswald" to arrived at 10th and Patton on foot from 1026 N. Beckley.)

 

T.F. Bowley said that he arrived at 1:10 according to his watch and that he called in on Tippit's radio.  Quite a coincidence for that typo!

[Steve Thomas]

58 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Steve, 

3. Finally, why would ambulances 602 and/or 603 be en route to Baylor?

In any event, you and I agree that the type written transcripts almost certainly reflect the changes made to obscure the fact that Tippit was shot earlier than 1:15. I agree with those who believe the time was probably around 1:07 or 1:08. (Way too early for "Oswald" to arrived at 10th and Patton on foot from 1026 N. Beckley.)

Paul,

 

I believe that Ambulance 603 was going to Baylor for an entirely different reason that had nothing to do with Tippit.

Something about a blood bank for some reason I think.

 

Jim and Paul,

While I think the 1:10 timestamp may have been a typo, I can't get around the fact that Dr. Liquori at Methodist gave the the time of his death as shown on his death certificate as 1:15 PM

https://22novembernetwork.wordpress.com/2014/11/15/the-murder-of-j-d-tippit-by-s-r-dusty-rohde/

 

Steve Thomas

 

[Sandy Larsen]

14 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

I'm pretty sure that the 1:10 time stamp in the transcripts is simply a typo on the part of the person doing the typing, because it comes after a 1:11 time stamp, a 1:15 time stamp, and a 1:16 time stamp on page 407.

 

I just want to add that I too noticed that out-of-order 1:10 timestamp. But when I subtracted 7 minutes from all the other timestamps to correct them (because I had concluded that the WC/FBI had added 7 minutes to them all), the 1:10 timestamp landed in order. And so I concluded that -- probably -- when the transcripts of the radio logs were altered by adding the 7 minutes, the persons doing so accidentally missed the 1:10 timestamp.

 

Edited May 23, 2019 by Sandy Larsen

[Sandy Larsen]

[deleted]

Edited May 23, 2019 by Sandy Larsen

[John Butler]

This is a bit off topic but, has anyone seen any other examples of time being shown in any imagery in Dealey Plaza on the day of the assassination?  These are the only two that I know of and one, the TV time is questionable.  Isn't that strange that there is only one for sure image?  I know of only the one just shown below from Jim Hargrove.

My paranoia says there may be something to the time not being shown time after time in Dealey Plaza imagery.

[Jim Hargrove]

Interesting question, John, but I don’t know the Dealey Plaza imagery well enough to answer it.  Perhaps someone has studied the surviving images of the big clock before. It may not lead anywhere significant, but you never know.