“The lights all went out,” and the elevators stopped while JFK was murdered. Shelley and Lovelady were near the bottom of the back staircase, by the electrical panel... and Vickie Adams saw them ... until everyone's story changed...

[Paul Jolliffe]

48 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

 

I don't know why my original post disappeared, but Jim, I was commenting on the bizarre "coincidence" that a 22 year old man named Herbert Leon Lee lived at 1026 N. Beckley during October of 1963 - so for the last two weeks of that month, there were not one, but two male residents known as "Mr. Lee". 

Further, this H.L. Lee was employed as a . . . floor installer for the Trinity Floor Company. Now he later told the FBI that he had moved from 1026 N. Beckley on November 1, and maybe he had, but that means for a couple of weeks he and "Oswald" lived in the same small house.

John Armstrong's escape through the floorboards theory is only possible thanks to the (coincidental?) work being done on the sixth floor by the in-house crew, men all hired and directed by Roy Truly.

That floor work provided the perfect cover to loosen the floor boards to allow at least one of the men on the sixth floor to escape that way. Whether any of the crew knew that is doubtful, although Bill Shelley is highly suspect. 

Here is Herbert Lee's statement to the FBI and his later obituary. Herbert Leon Lee was a professional floor installer for more than 30 years in Dallas. And he lived in the same rooming house with "Oswald" right before 11/22/63.

What do we make of this?

https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/shreveporttimes/obituary.aspx?n=herbert-quotleonquot-lee&pid=128925162#fbLoggedOut

 

https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/shreveporttimes/obituary.aspx?n=herbert-quotleonquot-lee&pid=128925162#fbLoggedOut

[Sandy Larsen]

23 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Some people believe that these frames from what John Butler has identified as the Couch-Darnell film show Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady outside the TSBD (they are supposedly circled in red). The images appear to me to be nowhere near clear enough to make any such claim.  But there is another problem....

The same day JFK was killed, Bill Shelley told the Dallas Police, "I went back to the building & went inside & called my wife & told her what happened. I was on the first floor then & I stayed at the elevator & was told not to let anyone out of the elevator." Four months later, on 3/18/64, Shelley told the FBI, "Immediately following the shooting, Billy N. Lovelady and I accompanied some uniformed police officers to the railroad yards just west of the building and returned through the west side door of the building about ten minutes later."

Where are the police in the frames above?  You can see well ahead of the two circled men and well behind them.  These two unidentified men do not appear to be accompanying any police officers.
 

 

I just want to note that Bart and I have different beliefs regarding the whereabouts of Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady ~30 seconds after the shooting, which is when the Couch/Darnell show those two characters walking toward the railroad yard. Bart believes that those two fellows ARE Shelley and Lovelady. In contrast, I believe that 1) Couch/Darnell don't show Shelley because he had gone back inside to call his wife, and 2) Lovelady is seen standing on the TSBD steps talking to Gloria Calvery.

I don't believe Shelley or Lovelady ever went to the railroad yard.

 

[Andrej Stancak]

The two men can hardly be Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady:

1. Bill Shelley was 2-4 inch shorter than Billy Lovelady. None of the GIF frames confirms this.

2. The alleged Lovelady had a different head posture compared to real Lovelady. Billy Lovelady had an orthopaedic problem called forward head posture causing the front plane of his head to be quite in front of his chest (a hunch). This problem is not seen in alleged Lovelady in Couch/Darnell.

3. These two men, alleged Shelley and Lovelady, do not know each other, they move independently. Please note that the alleged Lovelady came later than alleged Shelley who is moving kind of slow. "Lovelady" goes toward railroad tracks while "Shelley" seems to linger around the island.

4. Shelley stood on the top landing while Lovelady was already descending the steps in Wiegman. Yet, in Couch/Darnell, "Lovelady" is arriving after "Shelley" who was standing behind him on stairs and who had to pass several people. Shelley is still on the top landing in Darnell, so how can he be in front of the building?

5. Carl Jones stood on the second step and had an easy exit from the doorway. Yet, he arrives at the island in front of the building later than either "Shelley" or "Lovelady". In reality, Carl Jones should be the first to come. 

Edited February 23, 2019 by Andrej Stancak

[Jim Hargrove]

16 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

I don't know why my original post disappeared, but Jim, I was commenting on the bizarre "coincidence" that a 22 year old man named Herbert Leon Lee lived at 1026 N. Beckley during October of 1963 - so for the last two weeks of that month, there were not one, but two male residents known as "Mr. Lee". 

Further, this H.L. Lee was employed as a . . . floor installer for the Trinity Floor Company. Now he later told the FBI that he had moved from 1026 N. Beckley on November 1, and maybe he had, but that means for a couple of weeks he and "Oswald" lived in the same small house.

John Armstrong's escape through the floorboards theory is only possible thanks to the (coincidental?) work being done on the sixth floor by the in-house crew, men all hired and directed by Roy Truly.

That floor work provided the perfect cover to loosen the floor boards to allow at least one of the men on the sixth floor to escape that way. Whether any of the crew knew that is doubtful, although Bill Shelley is highly suspect. 

Here is Herbert Lee's statement to the FBI and his later obituary. Herbert Leon Lee was a professional floor installer for more than 30 years in Dallas. And he lived in the same rooming house with "Oswald" right before 11/22/63.

What do we make of this?

https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/shreveporttimes/obituary.aspx?n=herbert-quotleonquot-lee&pid=128925162#fbLoggedOut

 

https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/shreveporttimes/obituary.aspx?n=herbert-quotleonquot-lee&pid=128925162#fbLoggedOut

Paul,

Despite the FBI report, according to this unsourced note on the Mary Ferrell database, “Herbert Lee” was living at 1026 N. Beckley on 11/22/63.

https://www.maryferrell.org/marysdb.html?id=943

Don’t know if that could be a reference to “O.H. Lee” or “Herbert Leon Lee” but my bet is that the Russian-speaking Oswald was under close surveillance in the days leading up to the assassination, at N. Beckley, at the TSBD, and, of course, at Ruth Paine’s, at a minimum.  He just had to be in the right places at the right times to be a successful patsy.

Part of what led John to his theory of the floorboard escape above the front elevator was simply a process of elimination.  If the 6th floor assassins didn’t come down the back stairs, and since the front stairs didn’t go up to the 6th floor,  and since they surely would have been seen by many people on the outdoor fire escape, and since the freight elevators had see-through walls, what other escape routes were left?

[Jim Hargrove]

15 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I just want to note that Bart and I have different beliefs regarding the whereabouts of Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady ~30 seconds after the shooting, which is when the Couch/Darnell show those two characters walking toward the railroad yard. Bart believes that those two fellows ARE Shelley and Lovelady. In contrast, I believe that 1) Couch/Darnell don't show Shelley because he had gone back inside to call his wife, and 2) Lovelady is seen standing on the TSBD steps talking to Gloria Calvery.

I don't believe Shelley or Lovelady ever went to the railroad yard.

Sandy,

Shelley’s office, where undoubtedly there was a phone he could use to “call his wife,” was on the TSBD first floor just steps away from the electrical panels.
 

[Andrej Stancak]

Jim:

Bill Shelley is still on the top landing in Darnell, some 30 seconds after the last shot. He eventually went to call his wife but he first went out to the concrete island in front of the building. This is not only in the Warren Commission testimonies but it has been also witnessed by Buell Wesley Frazier (the part of Shelley and Lovelady leaving to the front of the building after hearing from Gloria Calvery). At the same time, the ceiling light is on in the vestibule just feet from the lift in the front part of the building - no power outage there. There is no time stamp for when he actually went into the building to call his wife, it is most likely that that happened after he and Lovelady came back via a side entrance, some 3 minutes after the last shot.

Bill Shelley for the Warren Commission:

Mr. BALL - Did you see the motorcade pass?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - What did you hear?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, I heard something sounded like it was a firecracker and a slight pause and then two more a little bit closer together. 
Mr. BALL - And then?
Mr. SHELLEY - I didn't think anything about it. 
Mr. BALL - What did it sound like to you?
Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like a miniature cannon or baby giant firecracker, wasn't real loud.
Mr. BALL - What happened; what did you do then? 
Mr. SHELLEY - I didn't do anything for a minute.
Mr. BALL - What seemed to be the direction or source of the sound:? 
Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like it came from the west. 
Mr. BALL - It sounded like it came from the west? 
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.

 

 

Edited February 23, 2019 by Andrej Stancak

[John Butler]

On ‎2‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 9:29 PM, John Butler said:

Ron,

That is very reasonable.  Of course the other guy can say different.  That is my problem with just about every piece of JFK research.  Can you get agreement from fellow researchers.

The Krome gif imagery is fairly poor.  It is the same as PM.  It is not sufficient to say whose who.  I originally thought the Lovelady figure was wearing a light colored shirt.  But, you can see a patterned shirt there if you want too.  The image is just that poor.  As far as identifying Lovelady and Shelley, the imagery looks vaguely like them.  But, the imagery also looks vaguely like someone else.  The business of the Lovelady shirt looking like two different shirts is hard to decipher. 

Tony later shows imagery that make one doubt what was said earlier about a light colored shirt. 

As far as there being no cops there I believe one was at the far left in the earlier frames.  And, of course the motorcycle cop running for the TSBD doorway.  I have my doubts that is Baker based on the timing of the Couch-Darnell film and supposedly what Baker said about when he arrived at the TSBD.  I am reserving doubt the motorcycle policeman being Baker.

Jim and Sandy are both right from their perspective.  You have to decide what you think is best based on how you read the evidence.  They read the evidence differently. 

The idea of Lovelady and Shelley being co-conspirators or not could go either way.  At least in the case of Bill Shelley, I agree he may very well be a co-conspirator based on the 3 Patsy photo in New Orleans showing Lee Oswald, Bill Shelley, and Chauncey Holt.  There is some disagreement on Bill Shelley in that photo.  But, to me he is a dead ringer.

This imagery may be suspicious.  It is from a TV film in New Orleans.  Why was this saved showing a minor event on the street.  The passing out of pamphlets that note worthy to film and then save the film?

This film may show a very rare event.  Harvey and Lee filmed together working the same event.  That's just speculation based on the central figure.

I just realized that Bill Shelley is on the street in front of the International Trade Center.  Does this mean that the ITC is connected to the TSBD?  Does this mean Roy Truly and his boss D H Byrd is connected to Clay Shaw?  What possible connection could Clay Shaw, CIA spy, have with a company that sells textbooks?  With Lee Harvey Oswald?  William Weston says guns and drugs.

[Jim Hargrove]

John,

This is fascinating, and it DOES look like Shelley in front of the NOLA Trade Mart.  But of the millions of people in the U.S. at the time, how can we possibly be sure it is him?

[Jim Hargrove]

1 hour ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Jim:

Bill Shelley is still on the top landing in Darnell, some 30 seconds after the last shot. He eventually went to call his wife but he first went out to the concrete island in front of the building. This is not only in the Warren Commission testimonies but it has been also witnessed by Buell Wesley Frazier (the part of Shelley and Lovelady leaving to the front of the building after hearing from Gloria Calvery). At the same time, the ceiling light is on in the vestibule just feet from the lift in the front part of the building - no power outage there. There is no time stamp for when he actually went into the building to call his wife, it is most likely that that happened after he and Lovelady came back via a side entrance, some 3 minutes after the last shot.

Bill Shelley for the Warren Commission:

Mr. BALL - Did you see the motorcade pass?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - What did you hear?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, I heard something sounded like it was a firecracker and a slight pause and then two more a little bit closer together. 
Mr. BALL - And then?
Mr. SHELLEY - I didn't think anything about it. 
Mr. BALL - What did it sound like to you?
Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like a miniature cannon or baby giant firecracker, wasn't real loud.
Mr. BALL - What happened; what did you do then? 
Mr. SHELLEY - I didn't do anything for a minute.
Mr. BALL - What seemed to be the direction or source of the sound:? 
Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like it came from the west. 
Mr. BALL - It sounded like it came from the west? 
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.

 

Andrej,

Thanks for the input.  As far as I’m concerned, Bill Shelley is a suspect in this case and I don’t necessarily believe anything he said.  I’m more inclined to believe the DPD affidavit and WC testimony from Vickie Adams which indicated she saw both Shelley and Lovelady at the bottom of the stairs when she arrived there, just a minute or two after the hit.  Forty years later, Adams apparently recanted the sighting to author/researcher Barry Ernest, who remarked, both in The Girl on the Stairs and in an interview with John Armstrong that she seemed “very uneasy” when talking about the two men.  She had clearly been hounded for years.

Geneva Hines testified that “the lights all went out” in her second floor office.  As I’ve said before, the second, third and fourth floors of the TSBD were remodeled and rewired around 1961.  A separate electrical panel was apparently added for the new wiring.  We don’t know the exact way the circuits were set up, but it was entirely possible that all three elevators and the new office wiring were on separate circuits from the rest of the building.  Vickie Adams (and others if memory served) said the power was off to all the elevators for a time.  Someone had to do that.  The offices of both Shelley and Lovelady were VERY close to the electric panels.

[John Butler]

      On ‎2‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 9:29 PM, John Butler said:

Ron,

That is very reasonable.  Of course the other guy can say different.  That is my problem with just about every piece of JFK research.  Can you get agreement from fellow researchers.

The Krome gif imagery is fairly poor.  It is the same as PM.  It is not sufficient to say whose who.  I originally thought the Lovelady figure was wearing a light colored shirt.  But, you can see a patterned shirt there if you want too.  The image is just that poor.  As far as identifying Lovelady and Shelley, the imagery looks vaguely like them.  But, the imagery also looks vaguely like someone else.  The business of the Lovelady shirt looking like two different shirts is hard to decipher. 

Tony later shows imagery that make one doubt what was said earlier about a light colored shirt. 

As far as there being no cops there I believe one was at the far left in the earlier frames.  And, of course the motorcycle cop running for the TSBD doorway.  I have my doubts that is Baker based on the timing of the Couch-Darnell film and supposedly what Baker said about when he arrived at the TSBD.  I am reserving doubt the motorcycle policeman being Baker.

Jim and Sandy are both right from their perspective.  You have to decide what you think is best based on how you read the evidence.  They read the evidence differently. 

The idea of Lovelady and Shelley being co-conspirators or not could go either way.  At least in the case of Bill Shelley, I agree he may very well be a co-conspirator based on the 3 Patsy photo in New Orleans showing Lee Oswald, Bill Shelley, and Chauncey Holt.  There is some disagreement on Bill Shelley in that photo.  But, to me he is a dead ringer.

This imagery may be suspicious.  It is from a TV film in New Orleans.  Why was this saved showing a minor event on the street.  The passing out of pamphlets that note worthy to film and then save the film?

This film may show a very rare event.  Harvey and Lee filmed together working the same event.  That's just speculation based on the central figure.

I just realized that Bill Shelley is on the street in front of the International Trade Center.  Does this mean that the ITC is connected to the TSBD?  Does this mean Roy Truly and his boss D H Byrd is connected to Clay Shaw?  What possible connection could Clay Shaw, CIA spy, have with a company that sells textbooks?  With Lee Harvey Oswald?  William Weston says guns and drugs.

Jim,

What do you think about this as far as the validity of Bill Shelley goes?

[Cory Santos]

1 hour ago, John Butler said:

I just realized that Bill Shelley is on the street in front of the International Trade Center.  Does this mean that the ITC is connected to the TSBD?  Does this mean Roy Truly and his boss D H Byrd is connected to Clay Shaw?  What possible connection could Clay Shaw, CIA spy, have with a company that sells textbooks?  With Lee Harvey Oswald?  William Weston says guns and drugs.

The guy standing w his hand on his hip, standing at a side angle, he looks familiar.  Has anyone identified him?  What is that arrow saying he is Lenny Young.

Edited February 23, 2019 by Cory Santos

[John Kozlowski]

38 minutes ago, Cory Santos said:

The guy standing w his hand on his hip, standing at a side angle, he looks familiar.  Has anyone identified him?  What is that arrow saying he is Lenny Young.

Cant make out last 2 words but it looks  "Pilot is assistant to George _ _". The last word looks like AMOT to me

[John Butler]

Here's another speculation.  We usually think of the person in the New Orleans films passing out pamphlets as Harvey Oswald.  Based on the photo it could be Lee.  Would that make the photo shown a 4 Patsy photo?  Could who was to be the real Patsy still up in the air in the summer of 1963.  It could have been decided that one of the two, Harvey or Lee, was definitely going to be the Patsy. 

Could be anybody's guess.

[Jim Hargrove]

John,

The overall evidence suggests that it was Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald pretending to be a Castro-supporter in New Orleans in the summer of 1963.  At roughly the same time, many witnesses apparently saw American-born LEE Oswald in and around Ruby’s club in Dallas.  Although the evidence is often hearsay (remember who was in charge of the “investigation”) the witnesses included Dorothy Marcum, Helen Kay Smith (aka “Pixie Lynn”), Wally Weston, Dixie Lynn, Kathy Kay, Robert Roy and others.  In this same period, LEE Oswald apparently made one or more trips to Cuba.  J. Edgar Hoover clearly knew this from recorded conversations just hours after the assassination of JFK.

Regarding the people surrounding HARVEY Oswald in front of the New Orleans Trade Mart during the FPCC charade, John Armstrong has often joked that it would be funny to put little thought balloons up over each one of their heads, explaining each person’s FBI informant number or Intel connection.  In one way or another, every single one of them appears to have worked for the U.S. government.

The “LHO Hunting” photo of LEE Oswald taken by his true brother Robert is better than the one I have on my website (which was scanned from the halftone in Robert’s book, LEE).  Can you tell me where you got it?  I’d appreciate it.

[Tony Krome]

3 hours ago, John Butler said:

Here's another speculation.  We usually think of the person in the New Orleans films passing out pamphlets as Harvey Oswald.  Based on the photo it could be Lee.  Would that make the photo shown a 4 Patsy photo?  Could who was to be the real Patsy still up in the air in the summer of 1963.  It could have been decided that one of the two, Harvey or Lee, was definitely going to be the Patsy. 

Could be anybody's guess.

This shoulder slope photo collage shown to me a few days ago is interesting;