Jump to content
The Education Forum

“The lights all went out,” and the elevators stopped while JFK was murdered. Shelley and Lovelady were near the bottom of the back staircase, by the electrical panel... and Vickie Adams saw them ... until everyone's story changed...


Recommended Posts

Escape from the 6th Floor of the TSBD

Illustrations and photos taken from harveyandlee.com.

The harveyandlee.com people have done more than an adequate job of stating and explaining their theory of the passenger elevator escape from the 6th floor.  They have explained it in full.  However, if you don’t go to harveyandlee.com you may not have gotten the full, rational explanation of the elevator escape.

I will try to summarize.  At first glance the elevator escape is ludicrous.  There is no passenger elevator on the 6th floor.  There are just the two freight elevators.  However, if you read what they are talking about at harveyandlee.com you will understand there is a passenger elevator shaft just below the floorboards of the floor of the 6th floor.  It looks like this:

tsbd-passenger-elevator-shaft.jpg

The TSBD people probably did not build the elevator shaft.  More than likely a professional elevator company did.  They would have fulfilled all standards of construction due to government inspection.  One of those standards is that the shaft if going to or above 4 floors must have a ventilation shaft.

The elevator was not intended for passengers to go to the 5th floor.  But, to fulfill construction standards it had to go to the 5th floor.

On the day of the assassination photos were taken of the Sniper’s Nest area.  One of the photos shows the second set of windows moving from the south TSBD face north along the east face of the building.  This is where the passenger elevator shaft is located.  Here’s what that looks like:

elevator-shaft-6th-floor-vent-by-covered

If you look carefully there is a column of boxes covering the ventilation shaft.  There are less than 10 or 20 boxes in that column of boxes.  How long would it take to move them?  The harveyandlee folks leave room for there not to be a ventilation shaft there.  I think there had to be one due to construction standards and government inspections for safety.  All that would be required to access the elevator shaft would be to remove the vent covering.  That would be easier than tampering with floor boards.  Easier to replace and cover with 10 or 20 so boxes.  That would take a short period of time.  Out of sight out of mind.

I have been accused from time to time of having an overactive imagination.  Let’s put that to use.  If you look at the floor plan for the 6th floor you will see that there is only two ways out of the 6th floor.  These are the stairway and the 2 freight elevators.  But, is that really true for escape plans?

6th-floor-tsbd-1.jpg

The stairways and freight elevators go to all 7 floors of the TSBD.  The building lost electrical power during the assassination and for possibly two minutes after.  So, that rules out the freight elevators being used as an escape route.

The stairways can also be ruled out because they would take you to the 7th floor and consequently no escape.  Going downstairs was not feasible since there were 3 black men on the 5th floor and office workers on the 4th floor.

So, how did the people on the 6th floor escape?  Two men were seen by several people.  A third was seen by Amos Euins.  Therefore, there is also a possibility of a third man.  The third man was a black man.  Euins told this to reporter James Underwood.  If any other men were there then they stood back from the windows and were not seen.  We can say with certainty that two men were there according to witness testimony.  But, we can not say with certainty that there were only two men there.

  1.  A ridiculous and humorous way for the sniper party to leave the building is to jump out the windows.  Not a safe or likely escape plan.

  2. There is another way that might take some thinking about because of its easiness for trained people.  This is they could repel out the windows to the ground.  Since, the windows only open a short distance and are near the floor this was probably not used.

  3. However, if you went up to the 7th floor and accessed the top of the building then repelling becomes an easy task.  It is about 70 feet to the ground.  A helper could toss the ropes and repelling equipment to the ground.  And, the 6th floor crew could drive off in a stations wagon down Elm Street and pick up the last member of the crew.

  4. The problem with this is you need men trained with specialized military or mountain climbing skills.  And, the biggest concern in repelling off the north face of the building from the top of the TSBD is being seen.  If they did this during or directly after the assassination could they get away with it during the excitement and crowd hysteria in front of the TSBD?  It is too risky a scenario.

  5. You could go up to the roof and be picked up by a helicopter.  Since no one heard or saw a helicopter that is an unlikely escape plan.

  6. Does this make the passenger elevator escape route sounder and plausible?

I think so. 

Edited by John Butler
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 729
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Jim:

I recall reading John's article at least 2 years ago, and it looked to me the same when I enquired a couple of days ago. Mind that I did not have any intention to memorise every detail of John's article during my first reading and of every revision made between then and now. I certainly trust you if you say that Shelley+Lovelady part was added more recently.

The images are fuzzy but they show three people (Williams, Shelley, Stanton) there who stood at the same places as before. Only 30 seconds has elapsed from the last shot when Darnell film was captured. If you say that Shelley was not there on the top landing, then who would be the person standing in the middle of the cluster of three? It was someone of the height of Bill Shelley, he stood at his spot, it was about 10--20 seconds after Wiegman film. Of course, you can say that the images are fuzzy and claim that everyone lied (Adams by trying to distance herself from seeing Shelley and Lovelady, Shelley when he said he stood at his spot for a minute or so), however, images do not lie. They may be difficult to read, indeed.

Thanks for explaining to me your interesting theory. I remain unconvinced with Shelley and Lovelady part as I believe that they indeed went to the concrete island and then they returned back to the building about 3-4 minutes after the last shot, and this is not compatible with these two people colluding with the conspirators by switching on or off the mains in the building. This clearly is not a problem forJohn and yourself.

 

Edited by Andrej Stancak
Link to post
Share on other sites

Andrej,

It seems fair to point out, though, that we are not debating whether Shelley and Lovelady were on the first floor by the elevator and the electrical panels at all; only when, and only when by a few minutes.  Just a few hours after the assassination, Shelley wrote apparently in his own hand in his own affidavit: “I was on the first floor then & I stayed at the elevator & was told not to let anyone out of the elevator.”

I suspect the two unidentified white men seen but unidentified and unchallenged by Baker were Shelley (the “unknown man” by the elevator in the WC annotated floor plan shown on the previous page of this thread) and Lovelady (the “unknown man” by the electrical boxes in the same drawing).  All the timings added by both men later were to distance themselves from the electric panels and elevator power at the critical time(s).  This fell neatly into the hands of the WC lawyers, who were anxious to prove Vickie Adams climbed down the stairs later than she recalled.  Real investigators would have challenged the men’s stories by referring to the Day 1 affidavits.

The images are indeed too fuzzy for me to even begin an identification, but I do believe that both Shelley and Lovelady stayed outside as long as they could to provide whatever alibi they could muster to deny their activities by the electrical panels.  

Link to post
Share on other sites

To John Butler,

Thank you for your post above.  It is particularly interesting to me because John A. has been contemplating the need for a ventilation shaft in the passenger elevator, both near the top of the shaft and the bottom.  Simply too much air is being moved to even consider having insufficient ventilation.  Just as you have, John A. wondered out loud and at some length on the phone if there could be a vent cover right over the shaft, hidden by the boxes.

In the end, though, John thought the vent would have to somehow lead more or less directly to the outside.  For one thing, he thought there would be all kinds of odors in that shaft (grease, electrical arcing, friction on dirty steel parts) so that it would be objectionable even brought into a warehouse setting and likely to re-enter the elevator shaft and eventually much of the building.

It is a remarkable coincidence, though, that, according to the WCR, Bonnie Ray Williams was “a warehouseman temporarily assigned to laying plywood on the sixth floor.” [p. 68]

Link to post
Share on other sites

Jim,

There should be some way to find info on the ventilation system for the passenger elevator.  A ventilation system would have to be there due to:

1. Building Codes and Standards

2. Government inspection

3. Insurance requirements

The elevator shaft is directly in front of the second set of widows on the east face going north from the south face.  That is from the ground up.  This is the structure of the building pre-elevator or any kind of air conditioning other than the windows.  Air conditioning was done by windows.  The windows on the east side probably opened the same as any other windows with a safety factor of not opening but a short distance from the floor.  

A ventilation shaft would probably not use a window on the 5th floor as it would interfere with the elevator operation in the 5th floor.  A shaft could connect through the floor of the sixth floor to the 6th floor window.  That’s why the elevator shaft was placed in front of the windows on the east face and not the wall between windows.

There would also be a need to access the elevator shaft other than the doorway or the hatch in the elevator.  Maybe.

Of course this is all conjecture.  Somewhere their should be plans for the elevator shaft.

Edited by John Butler
Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

I suspect the two unidentified white men seen but unidentified and unchallenged by Baker

Jim:

The two white men: did you consider a mistake by Baker in saying they were white? No one else but Baker mentioned the presence of two white men in the back of the building that soon after the shooting. Eddie Piper and Troy West, to my knowledge, were the two men staying on the first floor during the shooting. One of them was seen by Vicki Adams as she reached the first floor. It would be strange if Truly would see two unknown white men in his building just after the shooting, and Baker and Truly would just pass them and not even ask who they were.  Eddie Piper confirmed seeing Truly and another man as they got to the building. If one of the men was sitting there (according to Baker), this man could hardly be an assassin - such a man would use any opportunity to leave the building.

Late edit: I start to understand the difference between your and my interpretation of the two white men. In my view, the illogical reference to two white men in the first floor during the moments when Truly and Baker reached the back of the first floor is either an innocent mistake (Baker should have said "black" instead of "white"), or more likely an attempt to further support Vicki Adams's falsely added statement about her meeting Shelley and Lovelady. This was in a desperate attempt to save the second-floor encounter between Baker and Oswald. Replacing "black" with "white" in Baker's testimony had the same purpose as adding Shelley and Lovelady to Vicki Adams' testimony. 

In your theory, Baker's reference to two white men was a reflection of a true course of events which Warren Commission was scared to reveal, namely that Shelley and Lovelady ran to the back of the first floor right after the shooting to manipulate the switches in the electrical box, and Vicki Adams saw them while they were there. As Warren Commission knew the truth about the 1st-floor escape route, they needed to cover it up and therefore, the testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady were arranged in such a way that these two people were nowhere in the back of the building so early (1 minute) and their movements including going to the concrete island were concocted.

I should also say that all testimonies surrounding Oswald's movements were kept as hazy and unexplored as possible by the FBI, WC and Dallas Police.

 

Edited by Andrej Stancak
Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Are we to believe that the WC attorney pressed J. Leavelle and the DPD into service to plant the story of Adams’ sighting of Shelley and Lovelady into her DPD affidavit? 

 

Jim,

Do you know how this particular statement of Adams became public? I looked though all my indexes of statements and could not find this one.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/26/2019 at 1:40 AM, Andrej Stancak said:

Victoria Adams] did not see Shelley and Lovelady when she reached the first floor, and her testimony was changed by the Warren Commission to say she did.


Andrej,

Thanks for clarifying your position on this issue. I now understand your objection to that one post of mine. Though the impression the post might have left was unintentional on my part.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:


Andrej,

Thanks for clarifying your position on this issue. I now understand your objection to that one post of mine. Though the impression the post might have left was unintentional on my part.

 

Sandy:

I think we understand Vicki Adams' s story the same way, and it is a pleasure for me to be on the same boat with you if not on all then at least on this point.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I am puzzled by the drawing of the fifth-floor map which says no opening on the lift box on that floor. The building was a five-story building in 1895, and the lift machinery was located on the fifth floor. This entailed the wheel and the engine because it was a traction lift. I guess there should be some access to the lift mechanism from the fifth floor for maintenance purposes. It would not be practical to have the only access through a comparatively small opening from the floor above. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

tsbd-passenger-elevator-shaft.jpg

Andrej,

This is the illustration of the passenger elevator which is new when the building was remodeled in 1961.  If the elevator car reaches to a floor you still need extra space above it for its operation.  That's why the shaft extends into the 5th floor but, not as an open elevator.

This illustration has a drawing at the top to suggest a ventilation shaft.  The harveyandlee people retained the option of a tampered floorboard entrance into the elevator shaft and suggested there might be a ventilation cover. 

I am suggesting that in the photo displayed above there might have actually been a ventilation cover that could be removed to access the elevator shaft on the 6th floor into the 5th floor and below shaft.  I don't know what that might be if it is not a ventilation cover for venting air through the 6th floor 2nd set of windows on the east face.  It does not look like boxes of books.

Still, the actual plans for the 1961 passenger elevator shaft will solve the problem.

 

Edited by John Butler
Link to post
Share on other sites

To those who believe the sighting of Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor was added later by the WC to Vickie Adams’ testimony....

The WC deposed Victoria Adams (2:15 PM), Billy Lovelady (3:50 PM), and Bill Shelley (4:10 PM) all on the same day--April 7, 1964.  If the WC later added the Adams and Lovelady sightings to Ms. Adams’ testimony, who is it that attorney Joseph Ball specifically asked both Shelley and Lovelady about seeing Vickie Adams?  For example….

Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor? 
Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie. 

Mr. BALL - Who is Vickie? 
Mr. LOVELADY - The girl that works for Scott, Foresman.

Mr. BALL - What is her full name? 
Mr. LOVELADY - I wouldn't know. 
Mr. BALL - Vickie Adams? 

….

Mr. BALL - Did you see Vickie Adams after you came into the building and did you see her on the first floor?
Mr. SHELLEY - I sure don't remember. 
Mr. BALL - You don't. 
Mr. SHELLEY – No.

Link to post
Share on other sites

To Andrej re. the two “white men” on the first floor....

Anyone can be mistaken no doubt, but all we can do is go by what the witnesses say, unless we see a reason for them to be mistaken or untruthful.  Baker would have no way to know if the men were employees of the Book Depository, but Roy Truly surely would have known.  From John’s write-up on my website:

On May 14, 1964, 5 weeks after learning from Victoria Adams and Officer Marion Baker about the two men on the 1st floor between one and one and a half minutes after the shooting, Commission attorney David Belin interviewed Roy Truly. Questioning Truly about the two men at the back of the TSBD within one minute of the shooting should have been Belin's focus of attention. Belin, however, pointedly failed to ask Truly to describe or identity either of these men. Why? ... because Belin did not want the identity of these men on the record. Belin dared not ask Truly to identify these men. Belin never asked Truly if they were strangers, never asked Truly if he knew these men, and never asked Truly if they were TSBD employees. Throughout his testimony Roy Truly never spoke a word nor volunteered any information about these two men. If Truly said these men were strangers, then Truly and/or Officer Baker would have asked them for identification and their reason for being in the TSBD. If Truly identified these men as Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady then two very serious issues would need answers:

#1--if identified by Truly as Shelley/Lovelady (1 1/2 minutes after the shooting) then these were undoubtedly the same two men seen by Victoria Adams in the same location only one minute after the shooting. The W.C. knew that it was impossible for anyone from the 6th floor to have ran from the 6th floor "sniper's nest" to the NW stairway, and down to the 2nd floor lunchroom--without being seen or heard by Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles--and then be confronted by Baker and Truly.
#2--why were Shelley and Lovelady near the freight elevators only one minute after the shooting? 
Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...