“The lights all went out,” and the elevators stopped while JFK was murdered. Shelley and Lovelady were near the bottom of the back staircase, by the electrical panel... and Vickie Adams saw them ... until everyone's story changed...

[Jim Hargrove]

To John Butler….

Thanks for continuing to research the question of the elevator vents.  I don’t know a damned thing about elevator vents, other than they’re needed, but John A. is a builder and I’ll send the picture to him and ask him what he thinks.  Do you have any idea if the object is in the right position to be above the elevator shaft?  I can't tell.

[John Butler]

Jim,

Yes, it is exactly above the elevator shaft.  The elevator shaft is located at the second set of windows going north on the east face of TSBD.  The elevator shaft is directly under the second set of windows but, does not cover the second set of windows completely.

You can't see the Sniper's Nest windows because they are blocked by a post.  But, you can see the corner of the building.

This photo is from the 6th floor museum and described as in the 60s.

Edited February 27, 2019 by John Butler

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

To those who believe the sighting of Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor was added later by the WC to Vickie Adams’ testimony....

The WC deposed Victoria Adams (2:15 PM), Billy Lovelady (3:50 PM), and Bill Shelley (4:10 PM) all on the same day--April 7, 1964.  If the WC later added the Adams and Lovelady sightings to Ms. Adams’ testimony, who is it that attorney Joseph Ball specifically asked both Shelley and Lovelady about seeing Vickie Adams?  For example….

Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor? 
Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie. 

Mr. BALL - Who is Vickie? 
Mr. LOVELADY - The girl that works for Scott, Foresman.

Mr. BALL - What is her full name? 
Mr. LOVELADY - I wouldn't know. 
Mr. BALL - Vickie Adams? 

….

Mr. BALL - Did you see Vickie Adams after you came into the building and did you see her on the first floor?
Mr. SHELLEY - I sure don't remember. 
Mr. BALL - You don't. 
Mr. SHELLEY – No.

 

Jim,

I'm not sure I understand your question. It sounds like you want to know who Mr. Ball is referring to when he asked Shelley and Lovelady who they saw on the first floor. The answer to that question, of course, is Victoria Adams.

If that's not your question, please try to make your question more clear.

 

[Jim Hargrove]

Sandy,

Oops... that was a typo.  I mean to ask "... why is it that attorney Joseph Ball specifically asked both Shelley and Lovelady about seeing Vickie Adams?"  In other words, if the Shelly and Lovelady sighting was added later to Vickie Adams' testimony, what prompted Ball to ask the men if they saw her on the first floor.  And for that matter, what prompted Lovelady to say, out of the blue, "I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie" in answer to the question, "Who did you see on the first floor?"

[Jim Hargrove]

John,

Thank you for the images. I've forwarded them to John A.

[Tony Krome]

4 hours ago, John Butler said:

Jim,

Yes, it is exactly above the elevator shaft.  The elevator shaft is located at the second set of windows going north on the east face of TSBD.  The elevator shaft is directly under the second set of windows but, does not cover the second set of windows completely.

You can't see the Sniper's Nest windows because they are blocked by a post.  But, you can see the corner of the building.

This photo is from the 6th floor museum and described as in the 60s.

I don't think that photo is of the South East corner

[John Butler]

Tony,

The south face of the TSBD has arched windows except for the corner rectangular windows.  The east and west faces have rectangular windows.  The north face has a different look altogether.  The red horiztontal line is based on the width of the elevator shaft as shown on the 5th floor plan.

What bothers me about the photo, now that I look at it, the window appears to be strange with one part higher than the other.  There seems to be a filing cabinet in front of a post?  Strange?  Anyway it is not connected to the low metallic, box like structure sitting in front of the window.  If one wanted to make an argument one could say that is simply a cart that boxes of books were moved around in from place to place.  I don't see it but, one could argue. 

However, the rounded or arched windows say that this is the southeast corner.  This photo came from the 6th floor museum as the 6th floor.  You could argue a different floor since they all look alike on the south face.  That is you could argue the 5th or 6th floor.  There were office spaces from the 4th on down.  The 7th floor has a storage room in that location.

Edited February 28, 2019 by John Butler

[Tony Krome]

43 minutes ago, John Butler said:

Tony,

The south face of the TSBD has arched windows except for the corner rectangular windows.  The east and west faces have rectangular windows.  The north face has a different look altogether.  The red horiztontal line is based on the width of the elevator shaft as shown on the 5th floor plan.

What bothers me about the photo, now that I look at it, the window appears to be strange with one part higher than the other.  There seems to be a filing cabinet in front of a post?  Strange?  Anyway it is not connected to the low metallic, box like structure sitting in front of the window.  If one wanted to make an argument one could say that is simply a cart that boxes of books were moved around in from place to place.  I don't see it but, one could argue. 

However, the rounded or arched windows say that this is the southeast corner.  This photo came from the 6th floor museum as the 6th floor.  You could argue a different floor since they all look alike on the south face.  That is you could argue the 5th or 6th floor.  There were office spaces from the 4th on down.  The 7th floor has a storage room in that location.

The main support joists directly on top of the pylons run east to west

[John Butler]

It doesn't matter about floor joist directions being correct or not.

There are only 5 arched windows in the entire TSBD.  Those are on the south face of the TSBD at the 6th floor level.  The south face that has the entrance on Elm Street.  You see two of those 5 windows indicating without doubt this is the 6th floor.

[Tony Krome]

1 hour ago, John Butler said:

It doesn't matter about floor joist directions being correct or not.

There are only 5 arched windows in the entire TSBD.  Those are on the south face of the TSBD at the 6th floor level.  The south face that has the entrance on Elm Street.  You see two of those 5 windows indicating without doubt this is the 6th floor.

 

It's the Sixth floor alright, no problem there

Except it may be the north/east corner

I count 10 arched windows, so the photo may be the far right corner in the photo below

[Andrej Stancak]

The image of the sixth floor shown by John is most likely the south-east view with the second east window in view. The arched type of the windows we see in John's picture was only on the sixth floor south wall, not on the north side.

Frankly, I see nothing like a ventilation opening on the sixth floor. It is neither in the images showing the arrangement of boxes after the shooting nor in the open view of the sixth window shown by John. Moreover, it is not drawn in the floor map of the sixth floor. It should have been drawn in the floor map if this was the only access to the lift machinery sitting on the fifth floor. If it served air flow, why would it be covered with rows of books? Who placed them back on the ventilation hole when the two alleged assassins were already inside the fifth-floor box and could not do it themselves?

It may be worthy to contact the living witnesses (Mr. Lewis, Mr. Frazier?) to learn more about the technical aspects of the passenger elevator. There may be more documentation about the building in the municipal archives or in the holdings of the Sixth Floor Museum. 

[Tony Krome]

47 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

The image of the sixth floor shown by John is most likely the south-east view with the second east window in view.

Below is the south/east corner of the sixth floor as per the Sixth Floor Museum's description

How do you explain the joists running the opposite way and the different windows?

Look through the arched window and you will see a building across the road. The road is Houston and the arched window faces EAST.

 

Edited February 28, 2019 by Tony Krome

[John Butler]

The TSBD was remodeled in 1981-1986.  The appearance of the east face changed from the 1960s appearance to the post-1981-86 appearance after the remodeling.

Tony is correct for the post-1981 appearance.  But, not for an earlier appearance.  I hope these images are clear enough to see the differences pre and post modeling. 

Andrej,

Someone needs to find the plans for the elevator shaft.  I wouldn't know where to look.  That would solve a lot of problems with its appearance and function.

The shaft is shown on the 5th floor plans and no structures for a venting system shown on the 6th floor plans.  There is just the one photo, where you don't see anything, to suggest a vent to the outside via the window.  As I said earlier it could be a metallic cart for moving boxes.  It doesn't appear so to me.  But, I occasionally have to dine on crow due to my over enthusiasm and rushed responses.

The pre-1981 version of the TSBD had only 5 arched windows on the southern face.  The post 1981-86 version has 10 arched windows as shown in the right hand photo.  5 on the south face and now 5 on the east face.  Any photo showing arched windows rather than rectangular is pre-1981.  So, the interior photo that I posted earlier has to be pre-1981 and as advertised by the 6th floor museum showing the 6th floor in the 1960s. 

Edited February 28, 2019 by John Butler

[Jim Hargrove]

I sent John A the photos posted by John Butler near the top of this page.  John A emailed me back several photos showing the ceiling of the sixth floor and, using the direction of the floor beams for orientation, he concluded that the item that might be an air vent was on the north wall.

Nevertheless, I think we all agree that an elevator simply must have an air vent somewhere near the top of the shaft.

In the photo Tony posted above, it is interesting to see that this portion of the sixth floor appears to be covered in plywood.  Doubly interesting is that the WC Report indicated that, at the time of the assassination, Bonnie Ray Williams was “temporarily assigned to laying plywood on the sixth floor.”

John wrote this on my website:

All floors in the Book Depository were constructed with solid, thick, wooden floor boards (single floor construction). The photo [immediately below] of the stairway shows the size and shape of the floor boards which were laid side by side. They appear to be 2" by 6" solid boards. The photo [at the very bottom of this post] shows the wooden floor boards and ceiling boards extending from girder to girder. It is important to understand and remember that in the Book Depository the ceiling boards on one floor are the floor boards for the next level. We are focused on the area directly above the elevator shaft, which is only about 15 feet from the snipers nest. If an air vent were installed in the ceiling of the 5th floor elevator shaft, it would allow air to flow from the open elevator shaft directly into the 6th floor (see diagram below). An air vent would also provide direct access to the 5th floor and to the top of the elevator cabin. If an air vent were not installed in this area, then lifting a few floor boards would also provide direct access to the 5th floor.

 

[John Butler]

Jim,

The escape through the elevator theory stands whether or not there is an elevator vent on the 6th floor.  My notion is the vent goes out the 6th floor window.  That way no fumes are vented into the building.  I don't think government inspection would pass such a venting system  Building codes and insurance would dictate that there would be a venting system and one that was done right.  If not above the elevator shaft then where?   John A. needs to take another look at directions in the floor joists and I-beams.  There are only 5 arched windows on the south face of the building during the 1960s, not 10.  That didn't come around until after 1981.  Just above your post is 3 photos indicating the remodeling of the TSBD beginning in 1981.  The extra 5 arched windows on the east face has no bearing on the discussion.

The arched windows on the south face in the 1960s photo are the only ones at the time of the assassination.  The photo is from the 6th floor museum and shows the south face of the building.  The one that faces Elm Street. 

Edited February 28, 2019 by John Butler