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Escape From The TSBD- The Fire Escape Plan


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28 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

After the final shot, both Barnett and Worrell head north on Houston to positions north/east of the TSBD

Barnett then leaves heading west around the building. Worrell hangs around longer;

Mr. WORRELL - I was there approximately 3 minutes before I saw this man come out the back door here

 

"I saw this man come out the back door here"...

As a cop, why didn't he stop him?  Ask him where ya goin?  Why didn't they pursue questioning along this line? 

Edited by Ron Bulman
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According to many the boy may not have been there.  Others consider Worrell an unreliable witness.  He may be one of the mysterious deaths after the assassination.

The only policeman availabe to stop motorcade traffic was Barnett.  The other two cops went to the Grassy Knoll.  

Couch-Darnell films in front of the TSBD 48 seconds or longer after the first shot.  After the Camera Cars go through other folks in the parade are held up.  Implying Barnett is still directing traffic.

Richard Carr says the man in the brown coat left the back of the building seconds after the shots.  If so not likely to be anyone on the 6th floor.

According to the various stories no one is watching the east side 2 1/2 to 3 minutes after the assassination.

David Josephs could find no visual evidence for Worrell.

Fire escape stairs can be lowered and raised.

Edited by John Butler
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"Couch-Darnell films in front of the TSBD 48 seconds or longer after the first shot.  After the Camera Cars go through other folks in the parade are held up.  Implying Barnett is still directing traffic."

Whether you agree with 48 seconds or not someone has to be directing traffic at that time.  Supposedly, Barnett deserted his post, the same as the two Smith policemen who went to the Grassy Knoll.  Barnett went north on Houston Street along side the TSBD.  He said he took up a post where he could see both the backside (north face) and the fire escape.  Once again who was directing traffic.

Who did this?

1. Held up the Mayor's Car?  Mrs Earle Cabell said they came to a complete stop.  How long were they there?  Not long by my guess. 

2.  Who stopped the Camera Cars and kept them from proceeding down Elm for at least 30 seconds (I think longer)?

3.  Who stopped and supervised the rest of the motorcade once the Camera Cars were released.

4.  Who kept traffic from East Elm proceeding west?  Who kept traffic from North Houston from proceeding south?

The Dallas Police force along with Dallas County Sheriff's Office were supposedly the most corrupt police forces in the country.  If that is so then who can you believe amongst the various policeman and their stories?

Something is not right about Officer Barnett's stories.  Maybe, we have another real live Dealey Plaza mystery to the dozens, maybe hundreds of others.

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, John Butler said:

"Couch-Darnell films in front of the TSBD 48 seconds or longer after the first shot.  After the Camera Cars go through other folks in the parade are held up.  Implying Barnett is still directing traffic."

Whether you agree with 48 seconds or not someone has to be directing traffic at that time.  Supposedly, Barnett deserted his post, the same as the two Smith policemen who went to the Grassy Knoll.  Barnett went north on Houston Street along side the TSBD.  He said he took up a post where he could see both the backside (north face) and the fire escape.  Once again who was directing traffic.

Who did this?

1. Held up the Mayor's Car?  Mrs Earle Cabell said they came to a complete stop.  How long were they there?  Not long by my guess. 

2.  Who stopped the Camera Cars and kept them from proceeding down Elm for at least 30 seconds (I think longer)?

3.  Who stopped and supervised the rest of the motorcade once the Camera Cars were released.

4.  Who kept traffic from East Elm proceeding west?  Who kept traffic from North Houston from proceeding south?

The Dallas Police force along with Dallas County Sheriff's Office were supposedly the most corrupt police forces in the country.  If that is so then who can you believe amongst the various policeman and their stories?

Something is not right about Officer Barnett's stories.  Maybe, we have another real live Dealey Plaza mystery to the dozens, maybe hundreds of others.

 

I see no mystery.

Roger Craig said the traffic, held up on Elm to make way for the motorcade, began to flow because that post was deserted. Thats why he failed to cross the road in time.

The Camera Cars stopped to let people out.

Since there was no officer at the intersection, the westbound traffic simply proceeded down Elm after all vehicles in the motorcade had passed

During the motorcade, there was no traffic to direct, they were halted before the motorcade came through. When all three officers left their post, the motorcade was still winding through from Main St. The westbound traffic on Elm had to wait till the motorcade passed, with or without direction from police

 

 

 

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Tony,

I agree.  The problem is in the time before Craig tries to cross Elm to apprehend the suspicious character later Craig identifies as Oswald.

Someone was directing traffic for about a minute possibly rwo in the intersection after the shooting.   Barrett is at the TSBD door at 2 1/2 minutes according to his story.  He says he was doing other things before that.  The two Smith boys are at the Grassy Knoll area.

My work on the motorcade says that they were released onto Elm in groups from Houston Street at varying short periods of time.

After the Camera Cars were released the other parts of the motorcade were less important and whoever was directing traffic also abandoned the intersection.

Was it Barrett or someone else?  Altgens 5, 6 and Zapruder show only one policeman but, in scenes that suggest they are not the same person.  If I had to guess I woud say Joe Marshall.  There is the mystery.  There is no Edgar Smith.  Welcome Barrett is not seen but, is probably on the NW corner of Elm and Houston.

Jack White said years ago that the people seen in the intersection of Elm and Houston are not the same in the Zapruder film and Altgens 5 are not the same.  I would also say Altgens 6.

I am typing one finger on an Ipad.  Tomorrow i will add some visuals on the one officer seen in Altgens 5, 6, and Zapruder.  

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23 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Worrell was a young civilian male who ran north scared from the shooting. I'd say the guy leaving the back door had to wait till Barnett left, but was not concerned with the boy

Thank you Tony.  Lot of info out there to remember.  But the devil's in the details.

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Identification of police officers in Elm intersection

There were 3 officers assigned to watch the crowd and control traffic in the intersection of Elm and Houston as the presidential motorcade would pass through there.  These were:

  1. Joe Marshall Smith

  2. Edgar Leon Smith, Jr.

  3. Welcome Eugene Barrett

It is somewhat difficult to identify who was who and where they were located in the intersection of Elm and Houston.

Officer Joe Marshall Smith said at a WC hearing that he was located in the intersection of Elm and Houston controlling traffic and watching the crowd. 

“Mr. LIEBELER. There is, in fact, a picture of a car stopped there right at the intersection of Elm and Houston, and you had been standing back in the vicinity of the automobile?
Mr. SMITH. Just about the middle of Elm Street here.”

He said there were no problems there before the motorcade shown up.  There was an event with an epileptic person who had to be removed by ambulance. This maybe him in the Altgens 6 photo.

Altgens-6-policeman-Marshall-maybe.jpg

If you examine the following photos and compare them to Altgens 6 you will see the people around the officer indicated is not the same from photo to photo.  This was first noticed by Jack White.

Officer Joe Smith left his post and went to the Grassy Knoll directly after the shooting. 

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.; and this woman came up to me and she was just in hysterics. She told me, "They are shooting the President from the bushes." So I immediately proceeded up here.

Officer Edgar Leon Smith, Jr. gave a somewhat confusing testimony on where he was located.  He was helped by Mr. Liebler to say where he was:

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you station yourself and what did you do from the time you arrived until the time the motorcade began to approach?
Mr. SMITH. I said approximately - oh, 30 to 40 feet south of the south curb of Elm Street at the east curb of Houston. I stood around there and talked with some of the people in this general vicinity and watched the crowd.
Mr. LIEBELER. You stood across the street on Houston Street from the Texas School Book Depository Building?

566



Mr. SMITH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Cater-cornered - and I show you Commission Exhibit No. 354, and it has a letter "A" marked there, and that will be approximately where you were standing; is that right?
Mr. SMITH. That's about where I was.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do from the time you stationed yourself in that position?
Mr. SMITH. Well, I stood there and talked some to the crowd after they finally formed. They didn't start forming until around 11 o'clock, and looked over here at the Texas School Book Depository Building and just stood there mainly - there wasn't much to do.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you look up at the buildings that were around this intersection here at Elm Street at all?
Mr. SMITH. Yes; I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. As you were standing there at position "A" in Exhibit No. 354, you were in a position to observe the south windows of the Texas School Book Depository Building, were you not?
Mr. SMITH. That's right
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you notice any windows open up there?
Mr. SMITH. I don't recall at this time whether there was any open. I'm sure there were, but I just don't remember it specifically - any specifically being open. There's quite a few people looking out the windows and what not of the various buildings.”

Officer Smith said he was at:

“I was assigned to the corner of Houston and Elm Street. I got to my traffic corner about --
Mr. LIEBELER. Before you get to that - let me ask you a few questions: What did you say your name was, Edgar L.?”

Actually, Office Edgar Smith said he was further south on Houston Street and what is shown here.

Altgens 5 may show Officer Edgar Smith but, this is probably Joe Marshall.  The perspective is somewhat strange here due to Altgens shooting form Main and Houston. However, the people around this officer is different.

altgens-5-policeman-who.jpg

Notice the people are not the same as in Altgens 6 and this officer is standing south of the direction sign.  Whereas in Altgens 6 the officer is standing north of the direction sign.  This officer appears to be standing on the SE corner of Elm and Houston.  This agrees with the next photo or film frame 16 from Zapruder.

zap-frame-16-traffic-cop.jpg

This Zapruder frame 16 could show Edgar Smith.  It does not show Joe Marshall in the middle of the street in the Elm and Houston intersection.  Edgar Smith is in such a position he probably would not be filmed by Altgens in Altgens 6.  Particularly, when he said this:

“Mr. LIEBELER. As the motorcade turned and went down Elm Street, what happened?
Mr. SMITH. I heard three shots, I guess they were shots. I thought that the first two were just firecrackers and kept my position and after the third one, I ran down the street here.
Mr. LIEBELER. You ran down Elm Street?
Mr. SMITH. Well, ran down Houston Street and then to Elm, and actually, I guess it was a little bit farther over than this, because after they turned the corner I couldn't see any of the cars, there were so many people standing there around the corner.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, you were a little bit farther south down Elm Street than Position "A"?
Mr. SMITH. Yes; possibly a little bit farther south than that - yes; I was under these windows here.”

After the shooting he ran down Houston to Elm and then down Elm Street.  He eventually ended up at the Grassy Knoll.  Smith could be in the Marie Muchmore film at about the same location but, the imagery is so bad that it is just a guess.

muchmore-edgar-smith-very-vague.jpg

Officer Welcome Barrett said he was located:

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you remain there at all times from 10 o'clock until the motorcade arrived?
Mr. BARNETT - Yes; well, of course, I was here until we got word to stop the traffic, and I stepped out of this position here. I had to stop traffic from Houston here and help the other officers stop it on Elm, and stop this traffic on this small street that goes in front of the Depository Building.
Mr. LIEBELER - When the motorcade actually came, you moved over pretty much into Houston Street?
Mr. BARNETT - Yes, sir.”

He was in Houston Street when the motorcade went by.  This is shown in the Tina Towner but, not in Mark Bell.

There are film frames possibly showing Officer Welcome Barrett in Tina Towner and Mark Bell films.  However, there is a discrepancy in his location.

Towner-barrett-in-street.jpg

Nothing ever works flawlessly in the Plaza.  Bell shows an officer that could be Barrett at the SE corner of the TSBD.  The imagery is fairly vague but, with study you can make out something that looks like a Dallas Police in a white hat.  And, there is no policeman (with a white hat) in the middle of Houston Street.  He should be next to the large man in a coat and white shirt standing in the middle of the street.

bell-officer-barrett.jpg

All 3 of these officers deserted their posts in order to do something else they considered important.  This was done according to their testimonies directly after the shooting. 

So, that leaves a question concerning who was controlling traffic and the stopping and moving of the various motorcade segments controlled after the shooting. 

My candidate for this is Officer Barrett even though he said he was doing something else like watching the fire escape and the rear (north face) of the TSBD.

This montage may be helpful in Identifying Joe Smith and Edgar Smith:

altgens-5-6-zapruder-136-compare.jpg

Edited by John Butler
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"Couch-Darnell films in front of the TSBD 48 seconds or longer after the first shot.  After the Camera Cars go through other folks in the parade are held up.  Implying Barnett is still directing traffic."

 

 

18 seconds perhaps, no way on earth 48.

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4 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

bell-officer-barrett.jpg

 

The arrow on the left points to Danny Garcia.

Officer B is where the "??" is

That ID is based on wearing a white Dallas police hat.  The other, right hand figure does not have a white hat. But, seems to be wearing a black hat.  Towner shows that policeman wearing a white hat.  The images are so poor it is hard to say.  Barnett says he is in the intersection.  So, Barnett is inthe general area he said he was in and that was confused by the WC interogator.

Notice the very large tree in the frame.  I do not think trees were that tall in 1963.  The upper part the black part is painted.  Easy to recognize artwork by an artist.  It is fairly well done but, one can see the brush strokes.

Edited by John Butler
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I didn’t think this thread had any legs, maybe a 100 views at best.  The fire escape plan is just an informed speculation on Jim Hargroves excellent passenger elevator escape plan.  There is hardly any evidence at all.  Just something that could happen if you wanted to avoid escaping by the first floor exits.  The only other recourse is the fire escape.  During the research on this I was glad to see someone else, Officer Barnett, was thinking fire escape too.

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