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Mass Hysteria in Dealey Plaza


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Mass Hysteria in Dealey Plaza

Croft-3.jpg

As an example of this subject, this photo taken by Robert Croft shows the president’s party.  It shows the people in the presidential limousine moments before the assassination.  It is the calm, a tranquil moment before the storm.  Is it a real photo by Croft, pristine and untampered with by others or, is it one made by cover-up specialists from the ground up substituting different imagery taken elsewhere to show a peaceful moment before the assassination starts.  To the question is it real most people would answer with “yes, it is a real photo”.  But, is it?  According to over 50 witness statements this is manufactured evidence showing a reality that did not occur. 

Most JFK researchers over time have focused on the shooting in Dealey Plaza by asking where the shots came from, how many shots were there, and what was their sequence of occurrence.  These are legitimate questions.  However, these questions do not tell the whole story.  They need to be supplemented by another if one wants to know and understand what really happened in Dealey Plaza.  This question was avoided at all costs.  The following is based on the supplementary question “where was the president when you heard shooting?”

On November 22, 1963 in Dealey Plaza there were people who did not see what the majority of people saw that day or what they are purported to have said.  They saw something different that if true would negate what the majority saw and reverse not only the official story, the Warren Commission conclusions, but most conspiracy theories based on shooting down by the Grassy Knoll.  This is unacceptable to nearly all researchers. 

This minority view says that the major icons of the assassination such as the Abraham Zapruder film, James “Ike” Altgens photos 5, 6 and 7, Mary Moorman’s Polaroid are all false and tainted by photo editing.  Other photos and films that support these major icons such as the Orville Nix film and the Marie Muchmore film must also be false and tampered with if they show similar things. 

Almost all of the visual record in Dealey Plaza was seized and changed to reflect the views of the assassination cover-up.  There is a great deal of this record that has never seen daylight.  It was seized and destroyed by the FBI, CIA, Secret Service, and the Dallas authorities. 

There are over 50 witnesses listed here who say that when the presidential party entered the intersection of Houston and Elm Streets they came under fire from assassins.  The shooting continued in front of the TSBD.  It is as if the missing frames of the Zapruder film, the Zapruder Gap, were deleted and moved to the area of the Grassy Knoll.   And, that repositioned imagery was re-tasked to show the assassination occurring in front of the Grassy Knoll instead of the TSBD. 

This would be for the purpose of showing an assassination from the rear and based on the 6th floor Sniper’s Nest.  Lee Harvey Oswald would be framed as the lone assassin.  All evidence would be moved and adjusted to support that conclusion.

One could say these witnesses must be delusional and did not see what they saw.  What other conclusion can there be than one of mass illusion?  They must have suffered from a mass hysteria introduced by backfires and echoes resounding through Dealey Plaza.  The horror and trauma of the event must have induced an alternate reality.   

How could all those films and photos be tampered with?  How could the majority of witnesses see something different and then these witnesses something different?  How could the FBI and other authorities coerce and threaten witnesses to say what they wanted in new statements?  Why would the FBI change witness statements?  How could the FBI and Dallas authorities, in good consciousness as law enforcement officials, change witness statements to frame an individual of a murder charge?

But, in a real sense, by reasonable doubt, this is what the minority witnesses are saying.  I believe there is enough evidence here to suggest reasonable doubt and to rethink the way the Kennedy assassination occurred on 11-22-1963.

From justia.com:

The United States Supreme Court in Victor v. Nebraska, 511 U.S. 1 (1994), described this standard as “such doubt as would give rise to a grave uncertainty, raised in your mind by reasons of the unsatisfactory character of the evidence or lack thereof . . . . What is required is not an absolute or mathematical certainty, but a moral certainty.”

Witness Statements:

  1. Harold Norman- 11-26-63 FBI statement Norman said he heard a shot as the vehicle turned onto Elm St.

  2. Bonnie Ray Williams- Sheriff’s Office on 11-22-63- first said he heard shot when the presidential limo turned onto Houston.  Later, he changed that to a turn onto Elm St. and then later changed that.

     

  3. James “Junior” Jarman- Warren Hearing on March 24, 1964- At first, Jarman said much the same as Williams and Norman.  He later changed his testimony at the WC to hearing shots from low and to the left.  That is shooting from Houston Street.

     

  4. Mary Hollies- 2-18-64 statement to Detective Potts said she heard 3 shots as the motorcade turned into the intersection.  She noticed smoke on a little hill over to the west.  Mary Hollies and Alice Foster are placed with 5th floor witnesses due to Mary’s 6th Floor Museum interview in January, 2011.

     

  5. Betty Alice Foster-3-19-64 FBI statement- She heard something like fireworks after the President’s car turned down Elm St.

     

  6.  Elsie Dorman- 11-23-63 FBI report, 3-20-64 FBI report.  She thought shots came from the Court Records Building on Houston St.  She became excited and quit filming at the time the President was on Houston Street.

     

  7. Sandra Styles- In a statement made to the FBI on 3-19-64 she said she heard shots but, did not know where they came from and offered no other relevant information.  However, in a video published in October, 2017 she said as the presidential vehicle turned into the intersection she heard 3 shots.   Reference:  Jobert Jefford Paulson video, Oct. 17, 2017- The Case of the Lady Who Did Not See the Assassin.

     

  8. Vickie Adams- 11-24-63- She said when the president’s vehicle entered the intersection of Elm and Houston she heard 3 shots.  She could not see the shooting since it happened while the presidential limousine was under trees.  And, that would be in front of the TSBD.

     

  9. Dorothy Garner- 3-20-64 FBI report- When the shots occurred the presidential vehicle was out of sight, obscured by trees.  This would be in front of the TSBD.

     

  10. Yola Hopson- 12-1-63- FBI report- She heard two or more sounds / firecrackers when the presidential limousine was obscured by trees.  This would be in front of the TSBD.

     

  11. Steven Wilson- 3-25-64- FBI statement- He said he heard 3 shots while the president was obscured by trees.

     

  12. Geneva L. Hine- 4-7- 64 Warren Commission statements- “I saw the President’s car coming and I saw the President and saw him waving his hand in greeting up in the air and I saw his wife and I saw him turn the corner and after he turned the corner I looked and I saw the next car coming just at the instant I saw the next car coming up was when I heard the shots.”  The next car was the Secret Service vehicle which rode nearly on the bumper of the presidential limousine.  This means the shooting occurred in the intersection.

  13. Betty Jean Thornton- 11-24-63 FBI report- She said she was standing on the street when she heard shots as the president passed by.  They sounded like firecrackers.

  14. Danny Arce- 3-18-64 FBI statement- He said he was standing on the grass in front of the TSBD about 30 ft. from where the president was when shots rang out.  He said something different in his in his 11-22-63 statement.  He was standing on a corner across the street from 411 Elm Street.  He said in a 11-22-63 statement at the Sheriff’s Office he was standing on the corner of Elm and Houston.  He heard 3 shots ring out.

  15. Carl Jones- 3-18-64 FBI statement- He was sitting on the front steps.  After the president passed by he heard 3 shots.

  16. Virginia Rackley- 11-25-63 FBI statement- She was standing across the street from the TSBD.  As presidential limousine passed her location almost immediately she her 3 shots. She was standing in front of the building on the north side of Elm.

  17. Jane Berry -FBI statement of 11-25-63- she was located just west of the TSBD when the motorcade came by.  Just as the car was passing by her she heard 3 shots.  She thought the shots came from west of where she was standing.  There is a slight change in her location in her 3-19-64 FBI statement.  She said she was standing in front of the TSBD when the President’s vehicle passed by the building.  She heard 3 shots and saw the President slump over.

  18. Linda Willis- Warren Commission- July 22, 1964- that she was standing in front of the TSBD when he motorcade came by.  She initially said she heard shots there.  Then, later she said she was standing across Elm Street from the Stemmons Freeway sign.  There is where she heard shots and saw the head shot.  She said she was directly across the street from the Stemmons sign when the first shot hit him. 

  19. Tina Towner- in a YouTube video, Witnesses to the JFK assassination:  Three Dallas Stories- LA Times by Brian van der Brug, she said things that indicate shooting occurred as the presidential vehicle turned into the intersection and in front of the TSBD.  The article said she stopped filming after the presidential limousine turned into the intersection.  If that’s true then who filmed her film?

  20. Toni Glover- in a YouTube video from the JFK Assassination Forum, Rare Interview With JFK Assassination Witness Toni Glover Who Was Only 11 Years Old In 1963, Toni Glover said as Kennedy rounded the corner (corner of Houston and Elm intersection) his head exploded.

  21. James L. Simmons- Mark Lane interview- 3-28-66- a Union Terminal railroad worker who said he was standing on the Triple Underpass when the assassination occurred.  He said he heard shots when the presidential limousine turned into the intersection of Elm and Houston.

  22. S. M. Holland- said much the same as Simmons to Mark Lane.

  23. Bill Newman- in a Dallas Sheriff’s Office statement made on 11-22-63 said he was standing just west of the concrete standard (the monument) at the corner of the TSBD when he heard shots as the presidential limousine came toward him.  This means that the shooting occurred on Elm Street in front of the TSBD.  Newman mentions the “garden” behind which is different than the concrete standard.

  24. Gayle Newman (on the north side of Elm Street with husband, near the Presidential limousine at the time of the shooting), November 22, 1963: “When President Kennedy’s car was about 10 feet from us, I heard a noise that sounded like a firecracker going off.” [Sheriff’s Department affidavit: CE2003: 24H218]

  25. J. W. Foster- The Warren Commission Testimony of J.W. Foster was taken at 1:30 a.m., on April 9, 1964.  J. W. Foster was a Dallas Policeman stationed on the Triple Underpass during the assassination.  He said in his testimony as the presidential limousine came onto Elm Street he heard a loud noise that sounded like a firecracker.

  26. Earl Brown- was a Dallas Police Officer assigned to duty on the Stemmons railroad overpass over the Stemmons Expressway service road.  In his Warren Commission testimony of 4-7-64 he stated the presidential vehicle had made the turn and when the shots were fired, it stopped.

  27. Pierce Allman- Elsie Dorman film- said it pretty much happened in front of him.  He was standing on the SW corner of Elm and Houston.  He was about 10 feet front the vehicle when shots were fired.

  28. Peggy Joyce Hawkins---she was on the front steps of the TSBD and " estimated that the President's car was less than 50 feet away from her when he was shot, that the car slowed down almost coming to a full stop." ["Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97]

  29. George Hickey (Secret Service agent, in the follow-up car), November 22, 1963: “Just prior to the shooting I was seated in the rear of [the followup car] on the left side. As [the Presidential limousine] made the turn and proceeded a short distance I heard what seemed to me that a firecracker exploded to the right and rear.” [Statement: 18H765]

  30. Royce Skelton (on top of the triple overpass), November 22, 1963: “We saw the motorcade come around the corner and I heard something which I thought was fireworks.” [Sheriff’s Department affidavit: 19H496]

  31. Ruby Henderson (on the north-east corner of Elm and Houston Streets), December 6, 1963: “Mrs. Henderson said at the time the motorcade passed where she was standing, she heard what she initially thought was a firecracker ….” [FBI report: CE2089: 24H524]

  32. Garland Slack- Dallas Sheriff 11 22 63- I was standing on Houston Street, just below the window to Sheriff Decker's office waiting for the parade. I was standing there when the President's car passed and just after they rounded the corner from Houston onto Elm Street, I heard a report and I knew at once it was a high-powered rifle shot.

  33. Clint Hill (Secret Service agent, on the follow-up car), March 9, 1964: “Well, as we came out of the curve, and began to straighten up, I was viewing the area which looked like a park. There were people scattered throughout the entire park. And I heard a noise to my right rear, which to me seemed to be a firecracker.” [Warren Commission testimony: 2H138]

  34. John Martin, Jr. (on the south side of Elm Street, north of the reflecting pool), March 31, 1964: “A few seconds after the President had passed and was departing from his view, he heard a loud report and first thought that it was a firecracker ….” [FBI report: CD897]

  35. Carolyn Walther- The Warren Report Part 1 CBS Television (25th June, 1967)- The President passed us, and he was smiling, and everybody was waving. Then the last of the cars went by, and I heard the shot. I thought it was a firecracker.

  36. Arnold Rowland-Sheriff Office statement- 11-22-63- said as the presidential limousine turned west to head down Elm Street he heard a back fire.

  37. Ronald Fischer-Warren Commission 4-1-64- Hears a shot as the presidential limousine turns the corner unto Elm Street.

  38. Mrs. Peggy Hawkins CD897 (statement to FBI dated April 1, 1964): "Mrs. Hawkins said that the car containing the Presidential party had just passed in front of the building shortly after noon when she heard two or there shots fired in the near vicinity.

  39. Paul Landis- SA Landis’ version of the assassination he puts forward on the 27th and 30th of November, 1963- SA Landis said that the presidential limousine had just turned into the intersection of Houston and Elm Street and was just straightening from the turn in front of the TSBD when he heard the first shot.

  40. Warren Taylor (Secret Service agent, three cars back from the Presidential limousine), November 29, 1963: “Our automobile had just turned a corner (the names of the streets are unknown to me) when I heard a bang which sounded to me like a possible firecracker—the sound coming from my right rear.

  41. George Hickey (Secret Service agent, in the follow-up car), November 22, 1963: “Just prior to the shooting I was seated in the rear of [the followup car] on the left side. As [the Presidential limousine] made the turn and proceeded a short distance I heard what seemed to me that a firecracker exploded to the right and rear.” [Statement: 18H765]

  42. Jean Hill- Hill Exhibit # 5 in Warren Commission Hearings, XX, 158-  Hill Exhibit # 5 places Hill and Moorman on the SW corner of Houston and Main Streets almost directly across from the SW corner of the TSBD.  11-23-63 FBI report- She said she was standing in the vicinity of the TSBD.

  43. James Worrell- Warren Commission- 3-10-64- But as they went by, they got, oh at least another 50, 75 feet on past me, and then I heard the shots.

  44. Jeanette E. Hooker- 1-8-64- estimated that the presidential limousine was almost to the R L Thornton sign when she heard 3 shots.

  45. Mary Ann Mitchell- FBI report January 18, 1964, WC deposition April 1, 1964. said she and her companion heard a shot as the presidential car passed the curb in front of the TSBD.

  46. T. E. Moore- FBI report 1-10-64- said when the president reached the R L Thornton sign he heard the first of 3 shots fired.

  47. Welcome Eugene Barrett- July 23, 1964- Mr. LIEBELER - Now the motorcade made the turn onto Elm Street from Houston Street, and you were standing at approximately in position No. 9, and you indicated before that you heard the shots fired; is that right?
    Mr. BARNETT - Yes, sir.

  48. Mrs. Joseph Eddie Dean- 11-24-63 FBI report- She was standing on the steps of the TSBD when the presidential limousine was passing by she heard a rifle shot.

  49. Ruth Dean-3-19-64 Warren Commission- She said she was standing on the steps of the TSBD as the motorcade passed by.  She heard 3 shots and the president slumped.

  50. Curtis Freeman Bishop- 3-17-64 Warren Commission- He was standing on the Triple Underpass as the presidential limousine came into view started down Elm and past the TSBD he heard 3 shots.

  51. Ewell William Cowsert, FBI report 3-17-64- he was standing on the Elm Street viaduct with a group of fellow employees watching the motorcade with President JOHN F. KENNEDY. COWSERT advised that just as President KENNEDY's car passed the Texas School Book Depository building he heard two or three shots ring out and saw President KENNEDY slump Forward in his seat.

  52. L. R. Terry- Neither history.com or the McAdams witness list show any testimony for L. R. Terry.  Marrs’ Crossfire does provide info on Terry on page 25, 2013 ed.  Terry was near Euins and Brennan.  He saw gun and a hand come out of the 6th floor window when the motorcade came by.   He heard a shot.  The motorcade stopped in front of the TSBD.

 

There were two other witnesses besides Bonnie Ray Williams who said there was shooting on Main Street or Houston Street.

Marie Muchmore- was standing on the corner of Houston and Main when the motorcade passed by she heard the first shot.

Alan Smith- He claimed he saw the shooting close up while standing on Main Street.

This witness list is biased toward when a witness first made a statement, preferably on 11-22-23. In my opinion the cover up story and its details had not been fully formulated at the time of the assassination.  By the afternoon and evening of the 22nd the story as it should be was being disseminated to those in authority who would help with the cover up.  The Baker/Truly story is a good example.  Baker says one thing on the 22nd and Truly another thing on the 23rd.  Truly’s story becomes Baker’s story later on. 

Many of the 11-22-63 witnesses were allowed to make honest statements without coercion or influence from the authorities.  That certainly changed later that afternoon and after the 23rd.  Still many witnesses maintained their version of what happened and reported as they saw it.  There is an evolution of what some witnesses said on the first day to what they later said by March, 1964.  This evolution moved witness statements to where they supported the official version. 

Some witnesses like Bonnie Ray Williams had to make four statements until they got the right story, the official story.

I had posted this idea earlier but, did not provided documentation for the witnesses.  This is an attempt to correct that and add to the Forum a significant record concerning the assassination of President Kennedy. 

 

Edited by John Butler
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Hi John,

Two things.....1. Whats the value of shooting as soon as the limo makes the turn onto Elm for the assassins/conspirators? It destroys their set up of LHO, the 6th floor position, lone gunman scenario. Plus it creates monumental post assassination cover up work.

                        2. It is just as easy to fire at the limo 60 feet-100 feet further down elm street and maintain all of your above objectives. With the added advantage that all surrounding witnesses have their attention focused away from your firing position.

As a side note i believe that the hairpin turn that the motorcycle riders make off Houston down Elm would result in many loud engine noises once they accelerated again and applied the throttle...I feel post assassination, many witnesses may have mistakenly recollected those sounds as possible gunfire.

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1 hour ago, John Butler said:

Mass Hysteria in Dealey Plaza

Croft-3.jpg

As an example of this subject, this photo taken by Robert Croft shows the president’s party.  It shows the people in the presidential limousine moments before the assassination.  It is the calm, a tranquil moment before the storm.  Is it a real photo by Croft, pristine and untampered with by others or, is it one made by cover-up specialists from the ground up substituting different imagery taken elsewhere to show a peaceful moment before the assassination starts.  To the question is it real most people would answer with “yes, it is a real photo”.  But, is it?  According to over 50 witness statements this is manufactured evidence showing a reality that did not occur. 

Most JFK researchers over time have focused on the shooting in Dealey Plaza by asking where the shots came from, how many shots were there, and what was their sequence of occurrence.  These are legitimate questions.  However, these questions do not tell the whole story.  They need to be supplemented by another if one wants to know and understand what really happened in Dealey Plaza.  This question was avoided at all costs.  The following is based on the supplementary question “where was the president when you heard shooting?”

On November 22, 1963 in Dealey Plaza there were people who did not see what the majority of people saw that day or what they are purported to have said.  They saw something different that if true would negate what the majority saw and reverse not only the official story, the Warren Commission conclusions, but most conspiracy theories based on shooting down by the Grassy Knoll.  This is unacceptable to nearly all researchers. 

This minority view says that the major icons of the assassination such as the Abraham Zapruder film, James “Ike” Altgens photos 5, 6 and 7, Mary Moorman’s Polaroid are all false and tainted by photo editing.  Other photos and films that support these major icons such as the Orville Nix film and the Marie Muchmore film must also be false and tampered with if they show similar things. 

Almost all of the visual record in Dealey Plaza was seized and changed to reflect the views of the assassination cover-up.  There is a great deal of this record that has never seen daylight.  It was seized and destroyed by the FBI, CIA, Secret Service, and the Dallas authorities. 

There are over 50 witnesses listed here who say that when the presidential party entered the intersection of Houston and Elm Streets they came under fire from assassins.  The shooting continued in front of the TSBD.  It is as if the missing frames of the Zapruder film, the Zapruder Gap, were deleted and moved to the area of the Grassy Knoll.   And, that repositioned imagery was re-tasked to show the assassination occurring in front of the Grassy Knoll instead of the TSBD. 

This would be for the purpose of showing an assassination from the rear and based on the 6th floor Sniper’s Nest.  Lee Harvey Oswald would be framed as the lone assassin.  All evidence would be moved and adjusted to support that conclusion.

One could say these witnesses must be delusional and did not see what they saw.  What other conclusion can there be than one of mass illusion?  They must have suffered from a mass hysteria introduced by backfires and echoes resounding through Dealey Plaza.  The horror and trauma of the event must have induced an alternate reality.   

How could all those films and photos be tampered with?  How could the majority of witnesses see something different and then these witnesses something different?  How could the FBI and other authorities coerce and threaten witnesses to say what they wanted in new statements?  Why would the FBI change witness statements?  How could the FBI and Dallas authorities, in good consciousness as law enforcement officials, change witness statements to frame an individual of a murder charge?

But, in a real sense, by reasonable doubt, this is what the minority witnesses are saying.  I believe there is enough evidence here to suggest reasonable doubt and to rethink the way the Kennedy assassination occurred on 11-22-1963.

From justia.com:

The United States Supreme Court in Victor v. Nebraska, 511 U.S. 1 (1994), described this standard as “such doubt as would give rise to a grave uncertainty, raised in your mind by reasons of the unsatisfactory character of the evidence or lack thereof . . . . What is required is not an absolute or mathematical certainty, but a moral certainty.”

Witness Statements:

  1. Harold Norman- 11-26-63 FBI statement Norman said he heard a shot as the vehicle turned onto Elm St.

  2. Bonnie Ray Williams- Sheriff’s Office on 11-22-63- first said he heard shot when the presidential limo turned onto Houston.  Later, he changed that to a turn onto Elm St. and then later changed that.

     

  3. James “Junior” Jarman- Warren Hearing on March 24, 1964- At first, Jarman said much the same as Williams and Norman.  He later changed his testimony at the WC to hearing shots from low and to the left.  That is shooting from Houston Street.

     

  4. Mary Hollies- 2-18-64 statement to Detective Potts said she heard 3 shots as the motorcade turned into the intersection.  She noticed smoke on a little hill over to the west.  Mary Hollies and Alice Foster are placed with 5th floor witnesses due to Mary’s 6th Floor Museum interview in January, 2011.

     

  5. Betty Alice Foster-3-19-64 FBI statement- She heard something like fireworks after the President’s car turned down Elm St.

     

  6.  Elsie Dorman- 11-23-63 FBI report, 3-20-64 FBI report.  She thought shots came from the Court Records Building on Houston St.  She became excited and quit filming at the time the President was on Houston Street.

     

  7. Sandra Styles- In a statement made to the FBI on 3-19-64 she said she heard shots but, did not know where they came from and offered no other relevant information.  However, in a video published in October, 2017 she said as the presidential vehicle turned into the intersection she heard 3 shots.   Reference:  Jobert Jefford Paulson video, Oct. 17, 2017- The Case of the Lady Who Did Not See the Assassin.

     

  8. Vickie Adams- 11-24-63- She said when the president’s vehicle entered the intersection of Elm and Houston she heard 3 shots.  She could not see the shooting since it happened while the presidential limousine was under trees.  And, that would be in front of the TSBD.

     

  9. Dorothy Garner- 3-20-64 FBI report- When the shots occurred the presidential vehicle was out of sight, obscured by trees.  This would be in front of the TSBD.

     

  10. Yola Hopson- 12-1-63- FBI report- She heard two or more sounds / firecrackers when the presidential limousine was obscured by trees.  This would be in front of the TSBD.

     

  11. Steven Wilson- 3-25-64- FBI statement- He said he heard 3 shots while the president was obscured by trees.

     

  12. Geneva L. Hine- 4-7- 64 Warren Commission statements- “I saw the President’s car coming and I saw the President and saw him waving his hand in greeting up in the air and I saw his wife and I saw him turn the corner and after he turned the corner I looked and I saw the next car coming just at the instant I saw the next car coming up was when I heard the shots.”  The next car was the Secret Service vehicle which rode nearly on the bumper of the presidential limousine.  This means the shooting occurred in the intersection.

  13. Betty Jean Thornton- 11-24-63 FBI report- She said she was standing on the street when she heard shots as the president passed by.  They sounded like firecrackers.

  14. Danny Arce- 3-18-64 FBI statement- He said he was standing on the grass in front of the TSBD about 30 ft. from where the president was when shots rang out.  He said something different in his in his 11-22-63 statement.  He was standing on a corner across the street from 411 Elm Street.  He said in a 11-22-63 statement at the Sheriff’s Office he was standing on the corner of Elm and Houston.  He heard 3 shots ring out.

  15. Carl Jones- 3-18-64 FBI statement- He was sitting on the front steps.  After the president passed by he heard 3 shots.

  16. Virginia Rackley- 11-25-63 FBI statement- She was standing across the street from the TSBD.  As presidential limousine passed her location almost immediately she her 3 shots. She was standing in front of the building on the north side of Elm.

  17. Jane Berry -FBI statement of 11-25-63- she was located just west of the TSBD when the motorcade came by.  Just as the car was passing by her she heard 3 shots.  She thought the shots came from west of where she was standing.  There is a slight change in her location in her 3-19-64 FBI statement.  She said she was standing in front of the TSBD when the President’s vehicle passed by the building.  She heard 3 shots and saw the President slump over.

  18. Linda Willis- Warren Commission- July 22, 1964- that she was standing in front of the TSBD when he motorcade came by.  She initially said she heard shots there.  Then, later she said she was standing across Elm Street from the Stemmons Freeway sign.  There is where she heard shots and saw the head shot.  She said she was directly across the street from the Stemmons sign when the first shot hit him. 

  19. Tina Towner- in a YouTube video, Witnesses to the JFK assassination:  Three Dallas Stories- LA Times by Brian van der Brug, she said things that indicate shooting occurred as the presidential vehicle turned into the intersection and in front of the TSBD.  The article said she stopped filming after the presidential limousine turned into the intersection.  If that’s true then who filmed her film?

  20. Toni Glover- in a YouTube video from the JFK Assassination Forum, Rare Interview With JFK Assassination Witness Toni Glover Who Was Only 11 Years Old In 1963, Toni Glover said as Kennedy rounded the corner (corner of Houston and Elm intersection) his head exploded.

  21. James L. Simmons- Mark Lane interview- 3-28-66- a Union Terminal railroad worker who said he was standing on the Triple Underpass when the assassination occurred.  He said he heard shots when the presidential limousine turned into the intersection of Elm and Houston.

  22. S. M. Holland- said much the same as Simmons to Mark Lane.

  23. Bill Newman- in a Dallas Sheriff’s Office statement made on 11-22-63 said he was standing just west of the concrete standard (the monument) at the corner of the TSBD when he heard shots as the presidential limousine came toward him.  This means that the shooting occurred on Elm Street in front of the TSBD.  Newman mentions the “garden” behind which is different than the concrete standard.

  24. Gayle Newman (on the north side of Elm Street with husband, near the Presidential limousine at the time of the shooting), November 22, 1963: “When President Kennedy’s car was about 10 feet from us, I heard a noise that sounded like a firecracker going off.” [Sheriff’s Department affidavit: CE2003: 24H218]

  25. J. W. Foster- The Warren Commission Testimony of J.W. Foster was taken at 1:30 a.m., on April 9, 1964.  J. W. Foster was a Dallas Policeman stationed on the Triple Underpass during the assassination.  He said in his testimony as the presidential limousine came onto Elm Street he heard a loud noise that sounded like a firecracker.

  26. Earl Brown- was a Dallas Police Officer assigned to duty on the Stemmons railroad overpass over the Stemmons Expressway service road.  In his Warren Commission testimony of 4-7-64 he stated the presidential vehicle had made the turn and when the shots were fired, it stopped.

  27. Pierce Allman- Elsie Dorman film- said it pretty much happened in front of him.  He was standing on the SW corner of Elm and Houston.  He was about 10 feet front the vehicle when shots were fired.

  28. Peggy Joyce Hawkins---she was on the front steps of the TSBD and " estimated that the President's car was less than 50 feet away from her when he was shot, that the car slowed down almost coming to a full stop." ["Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97]

  29. George Hickey (Secret Service agent, in the follow-up car), November 22, 1963: “Just prior to the shooting I was seated in the rear of [the followup car] on the left side. As [the Presidential limousine] made the turn and proceeded a short distance I heard what seemed to me that a firecracker exploded to the right and rear.” [Statement: 18H765]

  30. Royce Skelton (on top of the triple overpass), November 22, 1963: “We saw the motorcade come around the corner and I heard something which I thought was fireworks.” [Sheriff’s Department affidavit: 19H496]

  31. Ruby Henderson (on the north-east corner of Elm and Houston Streets), December 6, 1963: “Mrs. Henderson said at the time the motorcade passed where she was standing, she heard what she initially thought was a firecracker ….” [FBI report: CE2089: 24H524]

  32. Garland Slack- Dallas Sheriff 11 22 63- I was standing on Houston Street, just below the window to Sheriff Decker's office waiting for the parade. I was standing there when the President's car passed and just after they rounded the corner from Houston onto Elm Street, I heard a report and I knew at once it was a high-powered rifle shot.

  33. Clint Hill (Secret Service agent, on the follow-up car), March 9, 1964: “Well, as we came out of the curve, and began to straighten up, I was viewing the area which looked like a park. There were people scattered throughout the entire park. And I heard a noise to my right rear, which to me seemed to be a firecracker.” [Warren Commission testimony: 2H138]

  34. John Martin, Jr. (on the south side of Elm Street, north of the reflecting pool), March 31, 1964: “A few seconds after the President had passed and was departing from his view, he heard a loud report and first thought that it was a firecracker ….” [FBI report: CD897]

  35. Carolyn Walther- The Warren Report Part 1 CBS Television (25th June, 1967)- The President passed us, and he was smiling, and everybody was waving. Then the last of the cars went by, and I heard the shot. I thought it was a firecracker.

  36. Arnold Rowland-Sheriff Office statement- 11-22-63- said as the presidential limousine turned west to head down Elm Street he heard a back fire.

  37. Ronald Fischer-Warren Commission 4-1-64- Hears a shot as the presidential limousine turns the corner unto Elm Street.

  38. Mrs. Peggy Hawkins CD897 (statement to FBI dated April 1, 1964): "Mrs. Hawkins said that the car containing the Presidential party had just passed in front of the building shortly after noon when she heard two or there shots fired in the near vicinity.

  39. Paul Landis- SA Landis’ version of the assassination he puts forward on the 27th and 30th of November, 1963- SA Landis said that the presidential limousine had just turned into the intersection of Houston and Elm Street and was just straightening from the turn in front of the TSBD when he heard the first shot.

  40. Warren Taylor (Secret Service agent, three cars back from the Presidential limousine), November 29, 1963: “Our automobile had just turned a corner (the names of the streets are unknown to me) when I heard a bang which sounded to me like a possible firecracker—the sound coming from my right rear.

  41. George Hickey (Secret Service agent, in the follow-up car), November 22, 1963: “Just prior to the shooting I was seated in the rear of [the followup car] on the left side. As [the Presidential limousine] made the turn and proceeded a short distance I heard what seemed to me that a firecracker exploded to the right and rear.” [Statement: 18H765]

  42. Jean Hill- Hill Exhibit # 5 in Warren Commission Hearings, XX, 158-  Hill Exhibit # 5 places Hill and Moorman on the SW corner of Houston and Main Streets almost directly across from the SW corner of the TSBD.  11-23-63 FBI report- She said she was standing in the vicinity of the TSBD.

  43. James Worrell- Warren Commission- 3-10-64- But as they went by, they got, oh at least another 50, 75 feet on past me, and then I heard the shots.

  44. Jeanette E. Hooker- 1-8-64- estimated that the presidential limousine was almost to the R L Thornton sign when she heard 3 shots.

  45. Mary Ann Mitchell- FBI report January 18, 1964, WC deposition April 1, 1964. said she and her companion heard a shot as the presidential car passed the curb in front of the TSBD.

  46. T. E. Moore- FBI report 1-10-64- said when the president reached the R L Thornton sign he heard the first of 3 shots fired.

  47. Welcome Eugene Barrett- July 23, 1964- Mr. LIEBELER - Now the motorcade made the turn onto Elm Street from Houston Street, and you were standing at approximately in position No. 9, and you indicated before that you heard the shots fired; is that right?
    Mr. BARNETT - Yes, sir.

  48. Mrs. Joseph Eddie Dean- 11-24-63 FBI report- She was standing on the steps of the TSBD when the presidential limousine was passing by she heard a rifle shot.

  49. Ruth Dean-3-19-64 Warren Commission- She said she was standing on the steps of the TSBD as the motorcade passed by.  She heard 3 shots and the president slumped.

  50. Curtis Freeman Bishop- 3-17-64 Warren Commission- He was standing on the Triple Underpass as the presidential limousine came into view started down Elm and past the TSBD he heard 3 shots.

  51. Ewell William Cowsert, FBI report 3-17-64- he was standing on the Elm Street viaduct with a group of fellow employees watching the motorcade with President JOHN F. KENNEDY. COWSERT advised that just as President KENNEDY's car passed the Texas School Book Depository building he heard two or three shots ring out and saw President KENNEDY slump Forward in his seat.

  52. L. R. Terry- Neither history.com or the McAdams witness list show any testimony for L. R. Terry.  Marrs’ Crossfire does provide info on Terry on page 25, 2013 ed.  Terry was near Euins and Brennan.  He saw gun and a hand come out of the 6th floor window when the motorcade came by.   He heard a shot.  The motorcade stopped in front of the TSBD.

 

There were two other witnesses besides Bonnie Ray Williams who said there was shooting on Main Street or Houston Street.

Marie Muchmore- was standing on the corner of Houston and Main when the motorcade passed by she heard the first shot.

Alan Smith- He claimed he saw the shooting close up while standing on Main Street.

This witness list is biased toward when a witness first made a statement, preferably on 11-22-23. In my opinion the cover up story and its details had not been fully formulated at the time of the assassination.  By the afternoon and evening of the 22nd the story as it should be was being disseminated to those in authority who would help with the cover up.  The Baker/Truly story is a good example.  Baker says one thing on the 22nd and Truly another thing on the 23rd.  Truly’s story becomes Baker’s story later on. 

Many of the 11-22-63 witnesses were allowed to make honest statements without coercion or influence from the authorities.  That certainly changed later that afternoon and after the 23rd.  Still many witnesses maintained their version of what happened and reported as they saw it.  There is an evolution of what some witnesses said on the first day to what they later said by March, 1964.  This evolution moved witness statements to where they supported the official version. 

Some witnesses like Bonnie Ray Williams had to make four statements until they got the right story, the official story.

I had posted this idea earlier but, did not provided documentation for the witnesses.  This is an attempt to correct that and add to the Forum a significant record concerning the assassination of President Kennedy. 

 

"There were two other witnesses besides Bonnie Ray Williams who said there was was shooting on Main Street or Houston Street."

Back to this horse carp Johnnie?  It once again destroys any credibility you might have accrued with the inept.   You do realize this and your long expose's eating up time and space expose the true nature of your efforts, or... 

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Tony,

It is not where I think shots hit.  It is what the witnesses said.  Tony Glover says that as the limo turns the corner onto Elm she sees the presidents head explode.  Many of the witnesses inside the TSBD said they heard shots while the limo was hid by trees.  So, it varies.

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37 minutes ago, John Butler said:

Ron,

I am not concerned by your ad hominem nonsense.  According to you I have not had credibility for a long time.  Get a beer and chill out.  Or, read the piece.

Ad hominem, not read a mc adams reference in a while.  You really believe JFK was shot on Main Street?

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People are not good at describing things when they have no experience doing so for preciseness, professional conduct and personal merit. 

Includes policemen: Garland Slack- Dallas Sheriff 11 22 63- "I was standing on Houston Street, just below the window to Sheriff Decker's office waiting for the parade. I was standing there when the President's car passed and just after they rounded the corner from Houston onto Elm Street, I heard a report and I knew at once it was a high-powered rifle shot."

"Just after" and "they" would be fair game for any courtroom attorney.  Too bad no trial.

Edited by David Andrews
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18 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

Ad hominem, not read a mc adams reference in a while.  You really believe JFK was shot on Main Street?

There is nothing “Mc Adams” about this topic.  Mc Adams thinking and mine are poles apart.

It is not what I think here.  It is what the witnesses are saying.  This is about a large group of people saying something different from what is accepted wisdom.  This notion is new.  I do not believe anyone else has noticed what these witnesses are actually saying as a group.  And, that is something that is hard to understand how these folks have been completely ignored for the last 55 years.

Read the witness statements in the original.  A reference is provided.

If you do you will see this isnt lone nutter material.

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It would be fascinating to see maps that shows witness locations with the number of shots they heard. If you could add when they heard the shots it would be even better. I just recently considered doing a graphic that shows an overhead of the limo moving along while color coded markers come.and go showing location and timing of the witness accounts. Since most witness reports give less than specific times for each shot you would have to make colored markers appear for multiple frames.  I wonder if it may pin down why many witness only heard two shots. It may shed some light on when the shots really happened. It would take a fair amount of work to do this but I might get around.to it.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Chris Bristow said:

It would be fascinating to see maps that shows witness locations with the number of shots they heard. If you could add when they heard the shots it would be even better. I just recently considered doing a graphic that shows an overhead of the limo moving along while color coded markers come.and go showing location and timing of the witness accounts. Since most witness reports give less than specific times for each shot you would have to make colored markers appear for multiple frames.  I wonder if it may pin down why many witness only heard two shots. It may shed some light on when the shots really happened. It would take a fair amount of work to do this but I might get around.to it.

 

 

I always wondered about that.  Is there a correlation between where people were physically located at the time they heard the shots and how they heard them/how many shots they heard.  Some described the sound like firecrackers.  There were reports of those who clearly identified the sounds as shots.  Some people reported just three shots.  Others said they heard way more shots.  And then some reported that what they heard as the second and third shots sounded closer together than the first and second shots.

A  visual chart like that might not show anything new, but it would be an interesting thing to look at if somebody else hasn't already done something like that.

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Chapters 5 through 9 at patspeer.com comprise the largest collection of witness statements on the assassination. There are several times more statements there than one will find elsewhere. And it is incredibly clear from reading these statements that Kennedy was struck by the first shot heard by most witnesses, and that this shot was fired as the limo was passing the Thornton Freeway sign circa frame 190 of the Zapruder film. 

P.S. Anyone claiming Kennedy was first fired upon while on Main St. or Houston St. needs to find ONE witness known to be on Main St. or Houston St., such as one of the many Dallas Deputy Sheriffs who raced into the plaza after the shooting and ran straight towards the knoll, who said the first shot was fired when the limo was on Main, or had just turned the corner onto Houston. Or how about even a photographer in one of the camera cars...who said the first shot was fired BEFORE the car in which he was riding was on Houston? 

I'll save you the time. There are no such witnesses. And there's a reason for this. Although the witnesses jumped around a bit here and there on certain details, they were INCREDIBLY consistent as to Kennedy's whereabouts when the first shot was fired. He was on Elm Street, heading down the hill. 

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????  Did this guy, Pat Speer, actually read what these witnesses were saying?  Or, did he just say that to advance his own agenda?  What he said doesn't match what the witnesses said.

Surely, if he has a large collection of witness statements he should have picked up on this minority view long ago.  He probably has a collection of what the majority witnesses that say what he said.  No problem, mate.  That is the majority opinion other wise there would not be an alternate reality I termed mass hysteria in Dealey Plaza.  Other than that he might be a staunch defender of the Zapruder Film, the most corrupt film in history.

Marie Muchmore:

marie-muchmore-12-4-63-FBI-1.jpg

After telling the falsehood that she did not obtain any photographs (perjury) she would have said anything that the FBI wanted.  She changed her story on the shooting.

"Or how about even a photographer in one of the camera cars...who said the first shot was fired BEFORE the car in which he was riding was on Houston?"

Who was that reporter?

Jackie Kennedy also said there was shooting on Main Street.

 

Edited by John Butler
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18 hours ago, Stephanie Goldberg said:

I always wondered about that.  Is there a correlation between where people were physically located at the time they heard the shots and how they heard them/how many shots they heard.  Some described the sound like firecrackers.  There were reports of those who clearly identified the sounds as shots.  Some people reported just three shots.  Others said they heard way more shots.  And then some reported that what they heard as the second and third shots sounded closer together than the first and second shots.

A  visual chart like that might not show anything new, but it would be an interesting thing to look at if somebody else hasn't already done something like that.

I wonder about noises like the 4 escort Harley's that may have muffled rifle shots. The position of the escorts relative to the witness when the shot occured may explain something. There has to be a reason or reasons those people did not hear 3 shots. Many witness also said the early shot sounded like firecrackers. One thing the witness statements show is folks in Dallas were very educated on firearms. statements like"I was going out at lunch to pick up my gun from the gunsmith. Or I was buying ammo etc. One woman who was sitting in her car with her children saw a guy run out the rear of the TSBD and she said he had a rifle "Not some bolt action thing, this was a high powered automatic with a scope" That is a very rough paraphrase but you get the idea. So many heard firecrackers you have to wonder about it. the Carcano ammo was known to misfire, maybe it was that, or maybe firecrackers were meant to be a misdirection from a second shooters position. 
 The Dallas folks being educated on firearms also lends credibility to the last two shots being close together. Many of them demonstrated that they knew the difference between the sonic wave and muzzle blast.

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