Mass Hysteria in Dealey Plaza

[Chris Bristow]

16 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Chapters 5 through 9 at patspeer.com comprise the largest collection of witness statements on the assassination. There are several times more statements there than one will find elsewhere. And it is incredibly clear from reading these statements that Kennedy was struck by the first shot heard by most witnesses, and that this shot was fired as the limo was passing the Thornton Freeway sign circa frame 190 of the Zapruder film. 

P.S. Anyone claiming Kennedy was first fired upon while on Main St. or Houston St. needs to find ONE witness known to be on Main St. or Houston St., such as one of the many Dallas Deputy Sheriffs who raced into the plaza after the shooting and ran straight towards the knoll, who said the first shot was fired when the limo was on Main, or had just turned the corner onto Houston. Or how about even a photographer in one of the camera cars...who said the first shot was fired BEFORE the car in which he was riding was on Houston? 

I'll save you the time. There are no such witnesses. And there's a reason for this. Although the witnesses jumped around a bit here and there on certain details, they were INCREDIBLY consistent as to Kennedy's whereabouts when the first shot was fired. He was on Elm Street, heading down the hill. 

thanks for the info. I will definitely review the witness statements. 

[Chris Bristow]

On March 26, 2019 at 6:48 PM, John Butler said:

Mass Hysteria in Dealey Plaza

As an example of this subject, this photo taken by Robert Croft shows the president’s party.  It shows the people in the presidential limousine moments before the assassination.  It is the calm, a tranquil moment before the storm.  Is it a real photo by Croft, pristine and untampered with by others or, is it one made by cover-up specialists from the ground up substituting different imagery taken elsewhere to show a peaceful moment before the assassination starts.  To the question is it real most people would answer with “yes, it is a real photo”.  But, is it?  According to over 50 witness statements this is manufactured evidence showing a reality that did not occur. 

Most JFK researchers over time have focused on the shooting in Dealey Plaza by asking where the shots came from, how many shots were there, and what was their sequence of occurrence.  These are legitimate questions.  However, these questions do not tell the whole story.  They need to be supplemented by another if one wants to know and understand what really happened in Dealey Plaza.  This question was avoided at all costs.  The following is based on the supplementary question “where was the president when you heard shooting?”

On November 22, 1963 in Dealey Plaza there were people who did not see what the majority of people saw that day or what they are purported to have said.  They saw something different that if true would negate what the majority saw and reverse not only the official story, the Warren Commission conclusions, but most conspiracy theories based on shooting down by the Grassy Knoll.  This is unacceptable to nearly all researchers. 

This minority view says that the major icons of the assassination such as the Abraham Zapruder film, James “Ike” Altgens photos 5, 6 and 7, Mary Moorman’s Polaroid are all false and tainted by photo editing.  Other photos and films that support these major icons such as the Orville Nix film and the Marie Muchmore film must also be false and tampered with if they show similar things. 

Almost all of the visual record in Dealey Plaza was seized and changed to reflect the views of the assassination cover-up.  There is a great deal of this record that has never seen daylight.  It was seized and destroyed by the FBI, CIA, Secret Service, and the Dallas authorities. 

There are over 50 witnesses listed here who say that when the presidential party entered the intersection of Houston and Elm Streets they came under fire from assassins.  The shooting continued in front of the TSBD.  It is as if the missing frames of the Zapruder film, the Zapruder Gap, were deleted and moved to the area of the Grassy Knoll.   And, that repositioned imagery was re-tasked to show the assassination occurring in front of the Grassy Knoll instead of the TSBD. 

This would be for the purpose of showing an assassination from the rear and based on the 6^th floor Sniper’s Nest.  Lee Harvey Oswald would be framed as the lone assassin.  All evidence would be moved and adjusted to support that conclusion.

One could say these witnesses must be delusional and did not see what they saw.  What other conclusion can there be than one of mass illusion?  They must have suffered from a mass hysteria introduced by backfires and echoes resounding through Dealey Plaza.  The horror and trauma of the event must have induced an alternate reality.   

How could all those films and photos be tampered with?  How could the majority of witnesses see something different and then these witnesses something different?  How could the FBI and other authorities coerce and threaten witnesses to say what they wanted in new statements?  Why would the FBI change witness statements?  How could the FBI and Dallas authorities, in good consciousness as law enforcement officials, change witness statements to frame an individual of a murder charge?

But, in a real sense, by reasonable doubt, this is what the minority witnesses are saying.  I believe there is enough evidence here to suggest reasonable doubt and to rethink the way the Kennedy assassination occurred on 11-22-1963.

From justia.com:

“The United States Supreme Court in Victor v. Nebraska, 511 U.S. 1 (1994), described this standard as “such doubt as would give rise to a grave uncertainty, raised in your mind by reasons of the unsatisfactory character of the evidence or lack thereof . . . . What is required is not an absolute or mathematical certainty, but a moral certainty.”

Witness Statements:

1. Harold Norman- 11-26-63 FBI statement Norman said he heard a shot as the vehicle turned onto Elm St.

2. Bonnie Ray Williams- Sheriff’s Office on 11-22-63- first said he heard shot when the presidential limo turned onto Houston.  Later, he changed that to a turn onto Elm St. and then later changed that.

    

3. James “Junior” Jarman- Warren Hearing on March 24, 1964- At first, Jarman said much the same as Williams and Norman.  He later changed his testimony at the WC to hearing shots from low and to the left.  That is shooting from Houston Street.

    

4. Mary Hollies- 2-18-64 statement to Detective Potts said she heard 3 shots as the motorcade turned into the intersection.  She noticed smoke on a little hill over to the west.  Mary Hollies and Alice Foster are placed with 5^th floor witnesses due to Mary’s 6^th Floor Museum interview in January, 2011.

    

5. Betty Alice Foster-3-19-64 FBI statement- She heard something like fireworks after the President’s car turned down Elm St.

    

6.  Elsie Dorman- 11-23-63 FBI report, 3-20-64 FBI report.  She thought shots came from the Court Records Building on Houston St.  She became excited and quit filming at the time the President was on Houston Street.

    

7. Sandra Styles- In a statement made to the FBI on 3-19-64 she said she heard shots but, did not know where they came from and offered no other relevant information.  However, in a video published in October, 2017 she said as the presidential vehicle turned into the intersection she heard 3 shots.   Reference:  Jobert Jefford Paulson video, Oct. 17, 2017- The Case of the Lady Who Did Not See the Assassin.

    

8. Vickie Adams- 11-24-63- She said when the president’s vehicle entered the intersection of Elm and Houston she heard 3 shots.  She could not see the shooting since it happened while the presidential limousine was under trees.  And, that would be in front of the TSBD.

    

9. Dorothy Garner- 3-20-64 FBI report- When the shots occurred the presidential vehicle was out of sight, obscured by trees.  This would be in front of the TSBD.

    

10. Yola Hopson- 12-1-63- FBI report- She heard two or more sounds / firecrackers when the presidential limousine was obscured by trees.  This would be in front of the TSBD.

     

11. Steven Wilson- 3-25-64- FBI statement- He said he heard 3 shots while the president was obscured by trees.

     

12. Geneva L. Hine- 4-7- 64 Warren Commission statements- “I saw the President’s car coming and I saw the President and saw him waving his hand in greeting up in the air and I saw his wife and I saw him turn the corner and after he turned the corner I looked and I saw the next car coming just at the instant I saw the next car coming up was when I heard the shots.”  The next car was the Secret Service vehicle which rode nearly on the bumper of the presidential limousine.  This means the shooting occurred in the intersection.

13. Betty Jean Thornton- 11-24-63 FBI report- She said she was standing on the street when she heard shots as the president passed by.  They sounded like firecrackers.

14. Danny Arce- 3-18-64 FBI statement- He said he was standing on the grass in front of the TSBD about 30 ft. from where the president was when shots rang out.  He said something different in his in his 11-22-63 statement.  He was standing on a corner across the street from 411 Elm Street.  He said in a 11-22-63 statement at the Sheriff’s Office he was standing on the corner of Elm and Houston.  He heard 3 shots ring out.

15. Carl Jones- 3-18-64 FBI statement- He was sitting on the front steps.  After the president passed by he heard 3 shots.

16. Virginia Rackley- 11-25-63 FBI statement- She was standing across the street from the TSBD.  As presidential limousine passed her location almost immediately she her 3 shots. She was standing in front of the building on the north side of Elm.

17. Jane Berry -FBI statement of 11-25-63- she was located just west of the TSBD when the motorcade came by.  Just as the car was passing by her she heard 3 shots.  She thought the shots came from west of where she was standing.  There is a slight change in her location in her 3-19-64 FBI statement.  She said she was standing in front of the TSBD when the President’s vehicle passed by the building.  She heard 3 shots and saw the President slump over.

18. Linda Willis- Warren Commission- July 22, 1964- that she was standing in front of the TSBD when he motorcade came by.  She initially said she heard shots there.  Then, later she said she was standing across Elm Street from the Stemmons Freeway sign.  There is where she heard shots and saw the head shot.  She said she was directly across the street from the Stemmons sign when the first shot hit him. 

19. Tina Towner- in a YouTube video, Witnesses to the JFK assassination:  Three Dallas Stories- LA Times by Brian van der Brug, she said things that indicate shooting occurred as the presidential vehicle turned into the intersection and in front of the TSBD.  The article said she stopped filming after the presidential limousine turned into the intersection.  If that’s true then who filmed her film?

20. Toni Glover- in a YouTube video from the JFK Assassination Forum, Rare Interview With JFK Assassination Witness Toni Glover Who Was Only 11 Years Old In 1963, Toni Glover said as Kennedy rounded the corner (corner of Houston and Elm intersection) his head exploded.

21. James L. Simmons- Mark Lane interview- 3-28-66- a Union Terminal railroad worker who said he was standing on the Triple Underpass when the assassination occurred.  He said he heard shots when the presidential limousine turned into the intersection of Elm and Houston.

22. S. M. Holland- said much the same as Simmons to Mark Lane.

23. Bill Newman- in a Dallas Sheriff’s Office statement made on 11-22-63 said he was standing just west of the concrete standard (the monument) at the corner of the TSBD when he heard shots as the presidential limousine came toward him.  This means that the shooting occurred on Elm Street in front of the TSBD.  Newman mentions the “garden” behind which is different than the concrete standard.

24. Gayle Newman (on the north side of Elm Street with husband, near the Presidential limousine at the time of the shooting), November 22, 1963: “When President Kennedy’s car was about 10 feet from us, I heard a noise that sounded like a firecracker going off.” [Sheriff’s Department affidavit: CE2003: 24H218]

25. J. W. Foster- The Warren Commission Testimony of J.W. Foster was taken at 1:30 a.m., on April 9, 1964.  J. W. Foster was a Dallas Policeman stationed on the Triple Underpass during the assassination.  He said in his testimony as the presidential limousine came onto Elm Street he heard a loud noise that sounded like a firecracker.

26. Earl Brown- was a Dallas Police Officer assigned to duty on the Stemmons railroad overpass over the Stemmons Expressway service road.  In his Warren Commission testimony of 4-7-64 he stated the presidential vehicle had made the turn and when the shots were fired, it stopped.

27. Pierce Allman- Elsie Dorman film- said it pretty much happened in front of him.  He was standing on the SW corner of Elm and Houston.  He was about 10 feet front the vehicle when shots were fired.

28. Peggy Joyce Hawkins---she was on the front steps of the TSBD and " estimated that the President's car was less than 50 feet away from her when he was shot, that the car slowed down almost coming to a full stop." ["Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97]

29. George Hickey (Secret Service agent, in the follow-up car), November 22, 1963: “Just prior to the shooting I was seated in the rear of [the followup car] on the left side. As [the Presidential limousine] made the turn and proceeded a short distance I heard what seemed to me that a firecracker exploded to the right and rear.” [Statement: 18H765]

30. Royce Skelton (on top of the triple overpass), November 22, 1963: “We saw the motorcade come around the corner and I heard something which I thought was fireworks.” [Sheriff’s Department affidavit: 19H496]

31. Ruby Henderson (on the north-east corner of Elm and Houston Streets), December 6, 1963: “Mrs. Henderson said at the time the motorcade passed where she was standing, she heard what she initially thought was a firecracker ….” [FBI report: CE2089: 24H524]

32. Garland Slack- Dallas Sheriff 11 22 63- I was standing on Houston Street, just below the window to Sheriff Decker's office waiting for the parade. I was standing there when the President's car passed and just after they rounded the corner from Houston onto Elm Street, I heard a report and I knew at once it was a high-powered rifle shot.

33. Clint Hill (Secret Service agent, on the follow-up car), March 9, 1964: “Well, as we came out of the curve, and began to straighten up, I was viewing the area which looked like a park. There were people scattered throughout the entire park. And I heard a noise to my right rear, which to me seemed to be a firecracker.” [Warren Commission testimony: 2H138]

34. John Martin, Jr. (on the south side of Elm Street, north of the reflecting pool), March 31, 1964: “A few seconds after the President had passed and was departing from his view, he heard a loud report and first thought that it was a firecracker ….” [FBI report: CD897]

35. Carolyn Walther- The Warren Report Part 1 CBS Television (25th June, 1967)- The President passed us, and he was smiling, and everybody was waving. Then the last of the cars went by, and I heard the shot. I thought it was a firecracker.

36. Arnold Rowland-Sheriff Office statement- 11-22-63- said as the presidential limousine turned west to head down Elm Street he heard a back fire.

37. Ronald Fischer-Warren Commission 4-1-64- Hears a shot as the presidential limousine turns the corner unto Elm Street.

38. Mrs. Peggy Hawkins CD897 (statement to FBI dated April 1, 1964): "Mrs. Hawkins said that the car containing the Presidential party had just passed in front of the building shortly after noon when she heard two or there shots fired in the near vicinity.

39. Paul Landis- SA Landis’ version of the assassination he puts forward on the 27^th and 30^th of November, 1963- SA Landis said that the presidential limousine had just turned into the intersection of Houston and Elm Street and was just straightening from the turn in front of the TSBD when he heard the first shot.

40. Warren Taylor (Secret Service agent, three cars back from the Presidential limousine), November 29, 1963: “Our automobile had just turned a corner (the names of the streets are unknown to me) when I heard a bang which sounded to me like a possible firecracker—the sound coming from my right rear.

41. George Hickey (Secret Service agent, in the follow-up car), November 22, 1963: “Just prior to the shooting I was seated in the rear of [the followup car] on the left side. As [the Presidential limousine] made the turn and proceeded a short distance I heard what seemed to me that a firecracker exploded to the right and rear.” [Statement: 18H765]

42. Jean Hill- Hill Exhibit # 5 in Warren Commission Hearings, XX, 158-  Hill Exhibit # 5 places Hill and Moorman on the SW corner of Houston and Main Streets almost directly across from the SW corner of the TSBD.  11-23-63 FBI report- She said she was standing in the vicinity of the TSBD.

43. James Worrell- Warren Commission- 3-10-64- But as they went by, they got, oh at least another 50, 75 feet on past me, and then I heard the shots.

44. Jeanette E. Hooker- 1-8-64- estimated that the presidential limousine was almost to the R L Thornton sign when she heard 3 shots.

45. Mary Ann Mitchell- FBI report January 18, 1964, WC deposition April 1, 1964. said she and her companion heard a shot as the presidential car passed the curb in front of the TSBD.

46. T. E. Moore- FBI report 1-10-64- said when the president reached the R L Thornton sign he heard the first of 3 shots fired.

47. Welcome Eugene Barrett- July 23, 1964- Mr. LIEBELER - Now the motorcade made the turn onto Elm Street from Houston Street, and you were standing at approximately in position No. 9, and you indicated before that you heard the shots fired; is that right?
    Mr. BARNETT - Yes, sir.

48. Mrs. Joseph Eddie Dean- 11-24-63 FBI report- She was standing on the steps of the TSBD when the presidential limousine was passing by she heard a rifle shot.

49. Ruth Dean-3-19-64 Warren Commission- She said she was standing on the steps of the TSBD as the motorcade passed by.  She heard 3 shots and the president slumped.

50. Curtis Freeman Bishop- 3-17-64 Warren Commission- He was standing on the Triple Underpass as the presidential limousine came into view started down Elm and past the TSBD he heard 3 shots.

51. Ewell William Cowsert, FBI report 3-17-64- he was standing on the Elm Street viaduct with a group of fellow employees watching the motorcade with President JOHN F. KENNEDY. COWSERT advised that just as President KENNEDY's car passed the Texas School Book Depository building he heard two or three shots ring out and saw President KENNEDY slump Forward in his seat.

52. L. R. Terry- Neither history.com or the McAdams witness list show any testimony for L. R. Terry.  Marrs’ Crossfire does provide info on Terry on page 25, 2013 ed.  Terry was near Euins and Brennan.  He saw gun and a hand come out of the 6^th floor window when the motorcade came by.   He heard a shot.  The motorcade stopped in front of the TSBD.

 

There were two other witnesses besides Bonnie Ray Williams who said there was shooting on Main Street or Houston Street.

Marie Muchmore- was standing on the corner of Houston and Main when the motorcade passed by she heard the first shot.

Alan Smith- He claimed he saw the shooting close up while standing on Main Street.

This witness list is biased toward when a witness first made a statement, preferably on 11-22-23. In my opinion the cover up story and its details had not been fully formulated at the time of the assassination.  By the afternoon and evening of the 22^nd the story as it should be was being disseminated to those in authority who would help with the cover up.  The Baker/Truly story is a good example.  Baker says one thing on the 22^nd and Truly another thing on the 23^rd.  Truly’s story becomes Baker’s story later on. 

Many of the 11-22-63 witnesses were allowed to make honest statements without coercion or influence from the authorities.  That certainly changed later that afternoon and after the 23^rd.  Still many witnesses maintained their version of what happened and reported as they saw it.  There is an evolution of what some witnesses said on the first day to what they later said by March, 1964.  This evolution moved witness statements to where they supported the official version. 

Some witnesses like Bonnie Ray Williams had to make four statements until they got the right story, the official story.

I had posted this idea earlier but, did not provided documentation for the witnesses.  This is an attempt to correct that and add to the Forum a significant record concerning the assassination of President Kennedy. 

 

I have to take these reports with a grain of salt. Number 6 Elsie Doorman said she stopped filming on Houston St but her film goes on long after that. She catches the Willis girl running and then pans back to see the Car behind Johnson's limo as it turns onto Elm. It is also possible they heard firecrackers. 

[Stephanie Goldberg]

3 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

I wonder about noises like the 4 escort Harley's that may have muffled rifle shots. The position of the escorts relative to the witness when the shot occured may explain something. There has to be a reason or reasons those people did not hear 3 shots. Many witness also said the early shot sounded like firecrackers. One thing the witness statements show is folks in Dallas were very educated on firearms. statements like"I was going out at lunch to pick up my gun from the gunsmith. Or I was buying ammo etc. One woman who was sitting in her car with her children saw a guy run out the rear of the TSBD and she said he had a rifle "Not some bolt action thing, this was a high powered automatic with a scope" That is a very rough paraphrase but you get the idea. So many heard firecrackers you have to wonder about it. the Carcano ammo was known to misfire, maybe it was that, or maybe firecrackers were meant to be a misdirection from a second shooters position. 
 The Dallas folks being educated on firearms also lends credibility to the last two shots being close together. Many of them demonstrated that they knew the difference between the sonic wave and muzzle blast.

Exactly.  That has always bothered me.  I know that you can't expect consistent statements in a situation like that, but some of the statements were so varied that I've always wondered if it had to do with where people were standing at the time.  I always figured somebody had already plotted that out, matching who heard what to where they were standing.

[Pat Speer]

18 hours ago, John Butler said:

????  Did this guy, Pat Speer, actually read what these witnesses were saying?  Or, did he just say that to advance his own agenda?  What he said doesn't match what the witnesses said.

Surely, if he has a large collection of witness statements he should have picked up on this minority view long ago.  He probably has a collection of what the majority witnesses that say what he said.  No problem, mate.  That is the majority opinion other wise there would not be an alternate reality I termed mass hysteria in Dealey Plaza.  Other than that he might be a staunch defender of the Zapruder Film, the most corrupt film in history.

Marie Muchmore:

After telling the falsehood that she did not obtain any photographs (perjury) she would have said anything that the FBI wanted.  She changed her story on the shooting.

"Or how about even a photographer in one of the camera cars...who said the first shot was fired BEFORE the car in which he was riding was on Houston?"

Who was that reporter?

Jackie Kennedy also said there was shooting on Main Street.

 

This "guy," Pat Speer, just so happens to be a long-time member of this forum, who has spoken at numerous conferences. He also knows the eyewitness statements better than most anyone , and has created an online database of the statements so that people can easily spot when someone is cherry-picking the statements to push a ridiculous agenda (such as the first shot heard by most witnesses missing).

Here is what I have on Marie Muchmore. Note that in her first interview she said the first shot rang out as the parade passed her location on Houston Street. (Should one assume she meant this shot rang out immediately after the limo passed her location this would still place the limo on Houston, not Main st.)  Note that in her second interview she specified that the limo was on Elm when the shots were fired.

Marie Muchmore filmed the fatal head shot from the west side of Houston Street, near the cement peristyle. (12-4-63 FBI report CD7 p.31) “She advised that they stood on Main and Houston Streets.  As the parade passed by there she heard the first shot but from where they were standing could not observe where the shot came from. She said she panicked after this shot and ran back to the office, later becoming deathly sick over the incident…She said she had a movie camera with her at the time and Wilma Bond had a box camera but she advised that she did not obtain any photographs of the assassination scene.” (2-18-64 FBI report, CD 735 p.8) “Mrs. Muchmore stated that after the car turned on Elm Street from Houston Street, she heard a loud noise which at first she thought was a firecracker but then with the crowd of people running in all directions and hearing the two further noises, sounding like gunfire, she advised that she began to run to find a place to hide.” 

And here's what Jackie had to say... Although the Z-film shows her look towards her husband before Connally was shot the first moment she recalled becoming aware of the shooting was when Connally yelled out. This moment was captured by the Z-film and occurred, no surprise,  on Elm St.

 

First Lady Jacqueline Kennedy sat to the left of her husband. (11-29-63 interview with Theodore White, notes released 5-26-95, and subsequently published in the September 1995 Kennedy Assassination Chronicles) “They were gunning the motorcycles; there were these little backfires; there was one noise like that; I thought it was a backfire. Then next I saw Connally grabbing his arm and saying no no no nonono, with his fist beating—then Jack turned and I turned—all I remember was a blue gray building up ahead, then Jack turned back, so neatly; his last expression was so neat; he had his hand out, I could see a piece of his skull coming off; it was flesh colored not white—he was holding out his hand—and I can see this perfectly clean piece detaching itself from his head; then he slumped in my lap.” (When describing the immediate aftermath of the shots) "All the ride to the hospital, I kept bending over him saying, "Jack, Jack, can you hear me, I love you, Jack." I kept holding the top of his head down trying to keep the..." (When describing her husband's condition upon arrival at the hospital) "From here down"--and here she made a gesture indicating her husband's forehead--"his head was so beautiful. I'd tried to hold the top of his head down, maybe I could keep it in...I knew he was dead." (Note found among White's type-written notes on his 11-29-63 interview with Mrs. Kennedy, as reported in the 5-28-95 Boston Globe) "I have left out of my transcript one or two matters so delicate I could not commit to paper." (11-29-63 interview with Theodore White as presented in The Making of the President 1964, published 1965. Although White, in his foreword, acknowledged the help of another motorcade witness, Malcolm Kilduff, it's clear his account was built at least in part upon his interview of Mrs. Kennedy.) "He had just turned easily, but with grace and precision as was his style, to wave at the Texans who cheered--when the sound rapped above the noise. It was a blunt crack, like a motorcycle backfiring (which is what his wife thought it was), followed in about five seconds by two more; then, suddenly, the sniper's bullets had found their mark and John Fitzgerald Kennedy lay fallen, his head in his wife's lap." (4-7-64, 5-4-64, 5-7-64, 5-8-64, and 7-20-64 interviews with William Manchester, as represented in The Death of a President, 1967) (On the first shot) "Jacqueline Kennedy believed it was a motorcycle noise." (On Connally's screaming) "Jacqueline Kennedy heard him. In a daze she wondered 'Why is he screaming?' Already she had started to turn anxiously to her husband." (On the final shot) "The First Lady, in her last act as First Lady, leaned solicitously toward the President. His face was quizzical. She had seen that expression so often, when he was puzzling over a difficult press conference question. Now, in a gesture of infinite grace, he raised his right hand, as though to brush back his tousled chestnut hair. But the motion faltered. The hand fell back empty. He had been reaching for the top of his head. But it wasn't there any more." (Manchester's narration for the immediate aftermath of the shots) "Leaning toward her husband Jacqueline Kennedy has seen a serrated piece of his skull--flesh-colored--not white--detach itself. At first there is no blood. And then, in the very next instant, there is nothing but blood spattering her, the Connallys, Kellerman, Greer, the upholstery, Clint running up behind, the curb alongside." (4-7-64, 5-4-64, 5-7-64, and 5-8-64 interviews with Manchester, as recounted in a 5-19-64 meeting of Manchester with Warren Commission attorney Howard Willens, and reported in Willens' personal journal) "We discussed the problem of taking the testimony of Mrs. Kennedy. He said that she had talked to him at great length about the assassination and the subsequent events and was on tape regarding these matters. Apparently she made a variety of very frank comments about people in the course of her recollections. Mr. Manchester said that she had expressed great interest in the newspaper reports to the effect that she was going to be called before the Commission. I told him precisely what the situation was on this matter. He indicated that she really had very little to contribute. He states that she was looking away from the President at the time of the first shot and turned only when she heard the Governor squeal. According to Mr. Manchester she then turned and saw the President get hit in the head and fall over onto her. She does not remember climbing out of the car onto the back." (6-5-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 5H178-181, with words deleted from the Warren Commission's transcript only to be re-discovered by Harold Weisberg and Mark Sobel presented in bold) “the car was very slow and there weren’t very many people around…I was looking to the left. I guess there was a noise, but it didn’t seem like any different noise really because there is so much noise, motorcycles and things. But then suddenly Governor Connally was yelling, “Oh, no, no, no”…I was looking this way, to the left, and I heard these terrible noises. You know. And my husband never made any sound. So I turned to the right. And all I remember is seeing my husband, he had this sort of quizzical look on his face, and his hand was up, it must have been his left hand. And just as I turned to look at him, I could see a piece of his skull sort of wedge-shaped, like that, and I remember that it was flesh colored with little ridges at the top. I remember thinking he just looked as if he had a slight headache. And I just remember seeing that. No blood or anything. And then he sort of did this (indicating), put his hand to his forehead and fell in my lap. And then I just remember falling on him and saying, “Oh no, no, no,” I mean, “Oh my God, they have shot my husband.” And “I love you, Jack,” I remember I was shouting. And just being down in the car with his head in my lap. And it just seemed an eternity. You know, then, there were pictures later on of me climbing out the back. But I don't remember that at all." (When asked if she remembered Secret Service Agent Clint Hill's climbing onto the limo after she climbed out the back.) "I don't remember anything. I was just down like that. And finally I remember a voice behind me, or something, and then I remember the people in the front seat, or somebody, finally knew something was wrong, and a voice yelling, which must have been Mr. Hill, "Get to the hospital," or maybe it was Mr. Kellerman, in the front seat. But someone yelling. I was just down and holding him. I was trying to hold his hair on. But from the front there was nothing. I suppose there must have been. But from the back you could see, you know, you were trying to hold his hair on, and his skull on.” (When asked how many shots were fired) “Well there must have been two because the one that made me turn around was Governor Connally yelling. And it used to confuse me because first I remembered there were three and I used to think my husband didn’t make any sound when he was shot. And Governor Connally screamed like a stuck pig. And then I read the other day that it was the same shot that hit them both. But I used to think if I only had been looking to the right I would have seen the first shot hit him, then I could have pulled him down, and then the second shot would not have hit him. But I heard Governor Connally yelling and that made me turn around, and as I turned to the right my husband was doing this (indicating with hand at neck). He was receiving a bullet. And those are the only two I remember.”

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

John Butler has made a historic breakthrough! By looking at more than 50 witness statements, he has proved that the shooting occurred when the presidential car was at the junction of Elm and Houston Streets. By comparing the Croft 3 photograph with those witness statements, he has proved that the Croft photograph was "made by cover-up specialists from the ground up substituting different imagery taken elsewhere."

Well done, Mr Butler! In more than half a century of research by hundreds if not thousands of people, no-one seems to have approached the evidence with Mr Butler's combination of sound logic and diligent scholarship.

The significance of Mr Butler's pioneering work is difficult to overestimate, because it doesn't apply only to the Croft photograph. Mr Butler recognises that if the Croft photo was faked, every element of the photographic record which agrees with the Croft photo must also have been faked:

Quote

the major icons of the assassination such as the Abraham Zapruder film, James “Ike” Altgens photos 5, 6 and 7, Mary Moorman’s Polaroid are all false and tainted by photo editing.  Other photos and films that support these major icons such as the Orville Nix film and the Marie Muchmore film must also be false and tampered with if they show similar things.

Mr Butler has shown that the assassination must have been the result of a very large conspiracy indeed, far larger than most people imagine. As he points out:

Quote

Almost all of the visual record in Dealey Plaza was seized and changed to reflect the views of the assassination cover-up.  There is a great deal of this record that has never seen daylight.  It was seized and destroyed by the FBI, CIA, Secret Service, and the Dallas authorities.

Collecting and altering almost all of the photographs and films would have been an enormous project, involving vastly more people than were required simply to shoot a guy travelling in a slow-moving, open-topped car. There must have been a veritable army of photo-alteration specialists at work in one or more top-secret photographic laboratories. And that's not all. Let's not forget that any unaltered photograph might well have been incompatible with any of the faked images, which would have exposed the whole photo-fakery plot. So there must have been another veritable army of law enforcement officers tracking down all of the hundreds of spectators who had been in Dealey Plaza, checking to see who had been taking pictures, and seizing their cameras, films and photographs.

I can guess what you're probably going to say. You are going to dismiss all of this as a paranoid fantasy. But just look at the mountain of evidence Mr Butler puts forward to support his claim that "almost all of the visual record in Dealey Plaza was seized." Here it is ... ah, hang on. He hasn't supplied any. Oh dear.

Mr Butler has disappointed me by not providing any evidence that the authorities seized "almost all of the visual record in Dealey Plaza." He must have plenty of such evidence, or he wouldn't have made the statement, would he? Let's see what evidence I can find.

Here we go. I've discovered quite a bit of evidence about the authorities' attitude to photographers in Dealey Plaza. According to a comment in another thread by someone who consulted Richard Trask's Pictures of the Pain, the list of those who had their cameras seized is actually very small indeed:

Quote

How many photographers "told of having their cameras seized in the aftermath"? Well, there was Mary Moorman, who was accosted shortly after the shooting by a Dallas Times Herald reporter who wanted her photograph for his paper. There's also the dubious claim by Beverley Oliver that her home movie film, though not the camera itself, was seized two days after the assassination. But the vast majority of the photographers didn't have their cameras seized:

- Oscar Bothun didn't: "Shortly after the shooting Mr Bothun apparently went back to work. He seems not to have been stopped or questioned as a witness at the scene" (Trask, p.157).
- Hugh Betzner didn't; he went out of his way to make himself and his photographs known to the police.
- Phil Willis didn't: "Remaining around the area for about an hour after witnessing the shooting, none of the family was questioned by law enforcement personnel" (Trask, p.179). Willis made his own way to the Kodak plant to get his film processed, and didn't have his camera seized there either.
- Orville Nix didn't; like Zapruder, he walked out of Dealey Plaza with his home movie camera. He returned later to take some more footage, and again left the scene without having his camera seized.
- Marie Muchmore didn't; she retained her camera and film until she sold the film to UPI three days after the assassination.
- Wilma Bond didn't; she wasn't even contacted by the authorities until February 1964.
- Jim and Tina Towner didn't; they stayed in Dealey Plaza for a while, then went home with their cameras.
- Robert Croft didn't; he left Dealey Plaza and went home to Denver with his camera.
- Mark Bell didn't; he walked across Dealey Plaza with his home movie camera and went back to work. There is no evidence that the authorities even knew of the existence of Bell's film until several years after the assassination.
- Robert Hughes didn't; he too left Dealey Plaza without having his home movie camera seized. The first thing the authorities knew about Hughes's film was when he voluntarily handed his film to the FBI two days after the assassination.
- Charles Bronson didn't; he left Dealey Plaza with his still and home movie cameras, and returned the next day to take more footage and still photographs, and again left without having his cameras seized.
- James Altgens didn't; he waited for a short while in Dealey Plaza and then walked a few blocks to the local newspaper office to get his film developed.

Hmm. It appears that the authorities showed very little interest in those who had taken photographs and home movies in Dealey Plaza. Contrary to Mr Butler's claim, there was certainly no intensive harvesting of cameras and films. Quite the opposite: the authorities were happy to let hundreds of spectators walk out of Dealey Plaza unmolested, and made virtually no active effort to track down those who had taken photographs and home movies. It's difficult to see how "almost all of the visual record in Dealey Plaza was seized and changed", as Mr Butler puts it, when the authorities had access to only a small proportion of the photographs and films.

I don't know about you, but I'm starting to have doubts about Mr Butler's historic breakthrough, not to mention his sound logic and diligent scholarship. I do hope he isn't just making stuff up to support what appears to be a paranoid delusion. Let's look at his treatment of the witness statements, and see if things improve.

According to Mr Butler, "Harold Norman- 11-26-63 FBI statement Norman said he heard a shot as the vehicle turned onto Elm St."

Let's do it properly, not amateurishly as Mr Butler has done, by including a citation of the source, a link to an online reproduction of the source, and a full quotation of the relevant passage:

Quote

He stated that about the time the car in which the President was riding turned onto Elm Street, he heard a shot. He said he thought the shot had been fired from the floor directly above him.

(Commission Document 5: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10406#relPageId=29)

Mr Butler's phrase, "as the vehicle turned onto Elm St", isn't quite accurate, is it? Norman is reported to have said that the first shot occurred at "about the time" the vehicle turned onto Elm Street. In other words, Norman claimed that he heard a shot within a few seconds of the vehicle turning onto Elm Street, which is entirely consistent with what the photographic record shows. There is also Norman's recollection that the shot he heard came from "directly above him" in the book depository, rather than, as Mr Butler speculates, from some unspecified location on Main Street or Houston Street or the Andromeda Galaxy.

So the very first of Mr Butler's 52 witnesses (in fact 51, since he includes George Hickey twice) doesn't actually state what Mr Butler claims he stated. We aren't off to a very good start, are we? As Mr Butler thinks George Hickey is such a good witness that he is worth quoting twice, let's see what Hickey has to say:

Quote

as X-100 [JFK's car] made the turn and proceeded a short distance I heard what seemed to be a firecracker exploded to the right and rear.

(Commission Exhibit 1024, Hearings vol.18, p.765: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=779)

As with Harold Norman's account, George Hickey's account ("proceeded a short distance") is entirely consistent with what the photographic record shows: the shooting started a few seconds after the car turned onto Elm Street.

Let's try one more witness, and see if he or she supports Mr Butler's thesis. Here's Mr Butler's final witness: "Alan Smith- He claimed he saw the shooting close up while standing on Main Street." Smith was quoted by the Chicago Tribune (23 November 1963, p.9) as follows:

Quote

I was standing on the curb watching the parade along Main Street. ... The car was ten feet from me when a bullet hit the President in the forehead.

Smith cannot possibly be correct in implying that President Kennedy was shot in the head on Main Street, before the presidential car had even reached Dealey Plaza. Either Smith wasn't on Main Street or, if he was, he can't have seen Kennedy being shot in the head.

As it happens, Alan Smith’s recollection that he was on Main Street appears to have been a simple mistake, either by him or by the newspaper reporter. Chris Scally, ‘Alan Smith and Friends’, Dealey Plaza Echo, vol.17 no.3 (Winter 2012), pp.38–46, makes a good case that Smith, who was aged 14 at the time of the assassination, is one of the two boys who were photographed standing on the north side of Elm Street, just to the east of the man with an umbrella over his head and the man with his arm in the air. Smith almost certainly was, as he claimed, just a short distance from President Kennedy when the fatal shot was fired, but he wasn't on Main Street. Alan Smith's account, like those of Harold Norman and George Hickey, is consistent with the photographic record.

And Pat Speer has provided us with what Marie Muchmore and Jacqueline Kennedy actually stated, which doesn't fit with Mr Butler's interpretation.

So much for Mr Butler's attempts to show that 50 or so witnesses claimed that the shooting happened as President Kennedy's car was turning from Houston Street onto Elm Street, and that the authorities were able to click their fingers and magically fake virtually all of the photographic evidence despite having access to only a small proportion of the photographs and films taken in Dealey Plaza.

It's a pity that the JFK assassination attracts people with the sort of paranoid mentality which dreams up the preposterously impractical and evidence-free notion that "almost all of the visual record in Dealey Plaza was seized and changed".

[John Butler]

Jeremy,

Quite a hit piece!  I’m crushed.  With a wave of your pen in a dualistic argument you have turned white into black.  Rational argument into paranoid delusion.

I love it when someone on the forum takes what they consider a perceived weakness and turn it into major point of argument against what you are saying. 

Since you have done such a serious refutation of what I said about the visual record please go back and review what I have said about those parts of the visual record that have been altered.  You will be doing the readers a great service.  Photo editing and alteration of the visual record is the concern of the majority of the things I have posted.

To start, I would love to hear your refutation of the alteration and falsehood of Altgens 5.  I believe that’s the first piece I posted on the forum.

[John Butler]

From a Jackie Kennedy Interview:

JFK Murder Jackie Kennedy Reveals All

Rich Torne Published May 10, 2017

Jackie says:

“They were gunning the motorcycles, there were these little backfires; there was one noise like that; I thought it was a backfire.  Then next I saw Connally grabbing his arms and saying “No No No,” with his fist beating---Then Jack turned and turned---

All I remember was a blue grey building up ahead; then turned back, so neatly; his last expression was so neat; he had his hand out….”

The reference for this is 11/29/63 The Making of the President 1960

People have a tendency to ignore or disbelieve what they don’t understand or what doesn’t make sense to them.  Jackie Kennedy said something strange decades ago and it just kind of went over people’s heads. 

The problem with this statement by Mrs. Kennedy is there is no blue-grey building down by “X marks the spot” in front of the Grassy Knoll.  Nowhere in the Zapruder film will you find a blue-grey building on Elm Street.  Everyone believes President Kennedy was shot in front of the Grassy Knoll because of the all-pervasive influence of the Zapruder film and other media.

Let me repeat that.  There is no blue-grey building on Elm Street that can be seen driving toward the Triple Underpass.  What was she talking about?

In fact, there is no blue-grey building on Elm Street or Houston Street in Dealey Plaza. 

There was a blue-grey building on Main Street just south of the Old Court House on the corner of Main Street and South Record Street.  This was the only blue-grey building in the area.  This blue-grey building is no longer there.  The area is now a park, the John F. Kennedy Memorial Plaza.  It vanished shortly after the assassination. The building was gone by at least 1966.

And,

This is what the area looks like today.  The design is a cenotaph.  It represents the freedom of the President’s spirit.  It was designed by a Kennedy family friend, Philip Johnson.  It was approved by Jackie Kennedy.  The citizens of Dallas totally funded its construction. 

Here is what we have instead of a blue-grey building.  It is a little strange for a memorial.  It is somewhat weird.  Here is something weirder.  Are they saying with this monument, “Here is where President Kennedy was put into a box.  Here, his spirit was fenced in, trapped.”  Someone said it was insulting Leggo construction?

Jackie Kennedy’s information can be interpreted as the shooting of Jack Kennedy happened just after she noticed a blue grey building ahead.  The phrase “last expression” means he was shot and killed there on Main Street just before reaching the area of the Old Court House.

And, that sets off a fury of denial by those who have a different view, both Lone Nut and CTs.

[David Andrews]

Is it possible that the "blue-grey building up ahead" is the triple underpass?  It's in shadow in the Zapruder film, and Jackie didn't have a lot of time to process architecture in JFK's last seconds.  There's no footage of her gazing straight ahead on Elm Street.

[Stephanie Goldberg]

In Mrs. Kennedy's WC testimony she said:

"Mr. RANKIN. Now, do you remember as you turned off of the main street onto Houston Street?

Mrs. KENNEDY. I don't know the name of the street.

Mr. RANKin. That is that one block before you get to the Depository Building. 

Mrs. KENNEDY. Well, I remember whenever it was, Mrs. Connally said, "We will soon be there." We could see a tunnel in front of us. Everything was really slow then. And I remember thinking it would be so cool under that tunnel."

 

Which would make it seem like she'd seen the Triple Overpass and registered it at some level in her mind, so I have no idea how to explain Mrs. Kennedy's statement referenced with the blue-gray building.  Then again, I am not sure which interview she gave first - the Warren Commission testimony or the interview cited above.   In her WC testimony, she was clearly unfamiliar with the area and its streets/buildings.  Either way, being in the middle of a shooting, I would not hold it against her to have first mentally registered the Overpass as a tunnel and then re-registered it again as something different when she caught it out of the corner of her eye in the middle of the shooting. 

While I question many parts of the official story, I am not convinced that there is sufficient evidence to doubt the location of the shooting.

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

John Butler writes:

Quote

To start, I would love to hear your refutation of the alteration and falsehood of Altgens 5.

I presume you are referring to your final comment on this page:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/23315-marie-muchmore-and-the-see-through-man/page/4/

As far as I can tell, you have put forward four arguments against the authenticity of the Altgens 5 photograph, which shows the presidential limousine on Houston Street:

1 - The half-raised window next to Nellie Connally is a different shade of grey in different photographs. Altgens 6, Altgens 7, Weaver, and the Muchmore film each show a lighter or darker shade of grey than the Altgens 5 photograph. It's difficult to know how to respond without causing offence, but this is mind-bogglingly stupid. Even a basic knowledge of black-and-white photography would tell you that there is nothing suspicious here. Many variable factors can affect the tone of a reflective surface in a photograph, e.g. the angle between the light source and the surface when the image is taken, the exposure of the photograph, and the way the photograph is printed. The first of these factors differs in each image, and that alone is enough to explain the different shades of grey.

2 - The front tyre (please excuse the quaint British spelling) kinda sorta looks a bit strange where it meets the surface of the road. You are confusing a small rounded shadow on the road, probably from the wheel arch or the wing mirror, with the outline of the tyre. A better-quality version of the photograph will probably show the shadow and the tyre as different shades of grey. Again, there's nothing to see here.

3 - You write that "the reflections in the side of the limousine are wrong for the location of the limousine" and then speculate that the crowd reflected on the side of the car is actually "a view down south Houston Street". Is it? Where is the evidence for this assertion? Do you have an image of the crowd elsewhere on Houston Street that matches the reflection on the side of the car? If so, why didn't you produce it? If not, where did you get the idea that the reflection is a fake? Did you just make it up?

4 - The court house and some of the spectators kinda sorta look a bit different from the way you imagine they would look: "The angles don’t seem right.  Shouldn’t we see more of the Court House?  Shouldn’t we we see the people in front of the vehicle?" Well, you tell us. Why don't the angles seem right? How should they look? Why should we expect to see more of the court house? Unless you can describe exactly what you think looks strange about the court house and the spectators, there's nothing to see here either.

So much for Altgens 5. Now let's return to the subject of this thread. You wrote that "almost all of the visual record in Dealey Plaza was seized and changed." This is a substantial claim to make, but for some reason you failed to produce any evidence to support it. I showed you evidence that, on the contrary, no fewer than 13 of the better-known photographers in Dealey Plaza, including James Altgens, left the area without having their cameras and films seized. What evidence led you to claim that "almost all of the visual record in Dealey Plaza was seized"? Were you just making it up?

[John Butler]

So much for Altgens 5.  Why would this photo be altered?

[Ray Mitcham]

52 minutes ago, John Butler said:

So much for Altgens 5.  Why would this photo be altered?

It's not altered, you prat. It's the shadow making it look like that. But then you have always had problems with shadows haven't you, John?

Edited April 1, 2019 by Ray Mitcham

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, John Butler said:

So much for Altgens 5.  Why would this photo be altered?

There are certain categories of people who will believe what is seen here is a shadow effect and not an image overlay.  These are Lone Nuts, secret Lone Nuts, fools, the pent-x( can't use this word for a creature living under a bridge and later comes out to harass) and the quad-x (Can't use that word either.  This is a person who distorts reality with their false statements.)

This is a clear case of image alteration and anyone who says differently has an agenda to distort the truth.

[Stephanie Goldberg]

5 hours ago, John Butler said:

There are certain categories of people who will believe what is seen here is a shadow effect and not an image overlay.  These are Lone Nuts, secret Lone Nuts, fools, the pent-x( can't use this word for a creature living under a bridge and later comes out to harass) and the quad-x (Can't use that word either.  This is a person who distorts reality with their false statements.)

This is a clear case of image alteration and anyone who says differently has an agenda to distort the truth.

-raises hand-

Sorry, but I don't understand and am asking an honest question here.  I know next to nothing about photo analysis of these pictures.  I see a photo with a tire.  I see that it looks odd.  What is it that I am supposed to be seeing or not seeing?  

[David Andrews]

23 minutes ago, Stephanie Goldberg said:

-raises hand-

Sorry, but I don't understand and am asking an honest question here.  I know next to nothing about photo analysis of these pictures.  I see a photo with a tire.  I see that it looks odd.  What is it that I am supposed to be seeing or not seeing?  

People suggest that the limo is pasted into Altgens 5 b/c the tire shown in close-up crops seems to have two hemispheres that don't match, and the wrong shape shadow is on the pavement