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Oswald's shirt


Guest Bart Kamp
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I guess Lee Oswald wore the light-red shirt, Commission Exhibit 151, on Friday morning. That shirt was not seen in colour until 2016 when Pat Speer, thanks to his perseverance, was able to obtain colour pictures of CE 151. 

Lee Oswald told the interrogators that he had changed his shirt after he arrived at the rooming house, 1026 North Beckley. 

The quotations below are the statements of law enforcement officers interrogating Lee Oswald. A report by Special Agents Odum and McNeely from their interviews of Buell Wesley Frazier is also quoted as it is relevant to the shirt problem.

  • Cpt. Will Fritz's notes, dated 23rd November 1963: “Says 11-22-63 rode bus/got trans same out of pocket…Changed shirts + tr. Put in dirty clotheslong sleeve red sh + gray tr.” (retrieved from https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=29103#relPageId=7&tab=page)
  • Cpt. Will Fritz's narrative  "Interrogations of Lee Harvey Oswald": “During this conversation he told me he reached his home by cab and changed both his shirt and trousers before going to the show” (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=29104#relPageId=6&tab=page).
  • Secret Service Inspector Thomas Kelley (CD87 p375).: “He said he went home, changed his trousers and shirt, put his shirt in a drawer. This was a red shirt, and he put it in his dirty clothes. He described the shirt as having a button down collar and of reddish color. The trousers were grey colored.” ("First interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald", retrieved from http://www.prayer-man.com/secret-service/thomas-j-kelley/#lightbox[group]/0/ ).
  • FBI agent James Bookhout:  "stated that after arriving at his apartment he changed his shirt and trousers, because they were dirty. He described his dirty clothes as being a reddish colored, long sleeved shirt with a button-down collar and gray colored trousers"  (Commission Document 5, page 100, retrieved from https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10406#relPageId=103&tab=page).

 Besides, there is Buell Wesley Frazier's recall of the shirt which Lee wore on Friday morning:

The best piece on Lee Oswald's shirt is Pat Speer's online book:  A New Perspective on Kennedy Assassination. Chapter 4b, Threads of Evidence. The problem was that the FBI identified some fibres on the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle which fibres allegedly matched - CE150, the dark, brownish shirt. They only could continue l.y.i.n.g about the shirt as how could the fibres from CE150 be on the rifle if Lee wore the light-red shirt CE151 during the time of JFK's assassination?

Of note, there would not be any chance that Lee Oswald was Prayer Man if he wore the dark, red-brown shirt CE150 as this shirt would appear much darker than the shirt worn by Prayer Man. Also, only CE151, the light-red shirt, had tails both on the front and the back; the front tail obfuscated the view of the belt on Prayer Man. The brownish CE150 had a rounded hem with no tails.

CE 151 from patspeer.com:

Screen%20Shot%202016-11-17%20at%209.28.4

 

Late edit: below is an illustration of how the light-red shirt CE151 matches Prayer Man' grey pants after converting the images into grey scale. Please note that Prayer Man in the 3D model is viewed from a slightly different angle compared to Darnell still. Amounts of shadows and lights and the contrast and blurring could still be tweaked, however, this example serves well to say that CE151 could be the shirt which Prayer Man wore on Friday morning and during the assassination.

grey_shirt.jpg

Edited by Andrej Stancak
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Screen%20Shot%202016-11-17%20at%209.28.4

If this was the shirt Oswald was wearing at the TSBD then it might help explain my version of Prayer Man.  Oswald is said to have changed shirts (all of his clothing) when he arrived at his apartment and then went to the Texas Theater.  If this is so, then he wasn't wearing the darker brown shirt he is alleged to be in the Doorway Man scene of Altgens 6. 

I believe Prayer Man was on Elm Street filming the motorcade as it went by.  This is seen in the John Martin film.  The following montage shows Prayer Man in the doorway of the TSBD and on Elm Street.  The images are the same to me.  The red shirt in John Martin could just be color distortion.

prayer-man-montage-elm-st.jpg 

What he has in his hands appears to be a camera, not a 6 1/2 ounce coke.  Which is better seen in the last frame to the right.  The problem with the camera is where did it and its film go?  Camera rather than curtain rods.

 

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On 3/27/2019 at 11:42 PM, Andrej Stancak said:

I guess Lee Oswald wore the light-red shirt, Commission Exhibit 151, on Friday morning. That shirt was not seen in colour until 2016 when Pat Speer, thanks to his perseverance, was able to obtain colour pictures of CE 151. 

Lee Oswald told the interrogators that he had changed his shirt after he arrived at the rooming house, 1026 North Beckley. 

The quotations below are the statements of law enforcement officers interrogating Lee Oswald. A report by Special Agents Odum and McNeely from their interviews of Buell Wesley Frazier is also quoted as it is relevant to the shirt problem.

  • Cpt. Will Fritz's notes, dated 23rd November 1963: “Says 11-22-63 rode bus/got trans same out of pocket…Changed shirts + tr. Put in dirty clotheslong sleeve red sh + gray tr.” (retrieved from https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=29103#relPageId=7&tab=page)
  • Cpt. Will Fritz's narrative  "Interrogations of Lee Harvey Oswald": “During this conversation he told me he reached his home by cab and changed both his shirt and trousers before going to the show” (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=29104#relPageId=6&tab=page).
  • Secret Service Inspector Thomas Kelley (CD87 p375).: “He said he went home, changed his trousers and shirt, put his shirt in a drawer. This was a red shirt, and he put it in his dirty clothes. He described the shirt as having a button down collar and of reddish color. The trousers were grey colored.” ("First interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald", retrieved from http://www.prayer-man.com/secret-service/thomas-j-kelley/#lightbox[group]/0/ ).
  • FBI agent James Bookhout:  "stated that after arriving at his apartment he changed his shirt and trousers, because they were dirty. He described his dirty clothes as being a reddish colored, long sleeved shirt with a button-down collar and gray colored trousers"  (Commission Document 5, page 100, retrieved from https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10406#relPageId=103&tab=page).

 Besides, there is Buell Wesley Frazier's recall of the shirt which Lee wore on Friday morning:

The best piece on Lee Oswald's shirt is Pat Speer's online book:  A New Perspective on Kennedy Assassination. Chapter 4b, Threads of Evidence. The problem was that the FBI identified some fibres on the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle which fibres allegedly matched - CE150, the dark, brownish shirt. They only could continue l.y.i.n.g about the shirt as how could the fibres from CE150 be on the rifle if Lee wore the light-red shirt CE151 during the time of JFK's assassination?

Of note, there would not be any chance that Lee Oswald was Prayer Man if he wore the dark, red-brown shirt CE150 as this shirt would appear much darker than the shirt worn by Prayer Man. Also, only CE151, the light-red shirt, had tails both on the front and the back; the front tail obfuscated the view of the belt on Prayer Man. The brownish CE150 had a rounded hem with no tails.

CE 151 from patspeer.com:

Screen%20Shot%202016-11-17%20at%209.28.4

 

Late edit: below is an illustration of how the light-red shirt CE151 matches Prayer Man' grey pants after converting the images into grey scale. Please note that Prayer Man in the 3D model is viewed from a slightly different angle compared to Darnell still. Amounts of shadows and lights and the contrast and blurring could still be tweaked, however, this example serves well to say that CE151 could be the shirt which Prayer Man wore on Friday morning and during the assassination.

grey_shirt.jpg

 

 

You start with a guess and from thereon it goes further downhill. If you had spend the right amount of time on the factual material I posted at my site then you can see that there are people from all time zones that day that mention he wore a brown(ish) shirt. Not red!

Then you bring Will Fritz into it who is probably the biggest faker on the block. 

The bus ticket is a transfer, so let's see. He changes his shirt, not his dirty sweaty t-shirt and perhaps, according to Fritz, even his trousers. And then takes the bus ticket with him! For what purpose may I ask? The bus ride and the cab ride (which only came to light in Fritz's notes on the morning of the 23rd!) can be disputed on many levels already. Ed Ledoux, myself and the other fine researchers at ROKC have brought various evidentiary instances forward which turn the bus/cab-ride into a follow up of the 2FLRE fugezi. Unless you want to bring Harvey or is it Lee into the game? 

Thomas Kelley has been caught fabricating things in his report (Oswald not seeing the parade i/e). Kelley is one of the dodgiest characters in this whole Spiel. 

James Bookhout's Nov 25th report is rubbish as well, he contradicts his joint report with Hosty on three instances already. He would say whatever was needed to nail Oswald, since he was dead already it would not make one iota of difference. Comparing Bookhout's report with Fritz's notes shows how much Fritz copied of Bookhout. Sean Murphy was right back in 2013.

Buell Frazier's report is rubbish as well, it has been yonks after the deed and he would say whatever is needed to say to get along. Yet in the FBI teletype from Dec 5th he has no recollection. Yet months later he does......

Look closely at the Fritz FBI report at my site. AGAIN!

 

So the whole red shirt story is rubbish and make believe as there is way too present pointing to a brown shirt from various people at certain times/places that day. 

Then you make the mistake of introducing your fake drawing with Oswald wearing that reddish shirt, and worse you have Lovelady in it, Doyle even claims it is Molina. I don't know which assertion is more laughable. 

 

Edited by Bart Kamp
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Bart:

I know, whatever I write is wrong, a guess, a belief, laughable, rubbish etc. - in your eyes. There is nothing I can do about it, so ignoring your views is the best way forward. However, whoever opens this thread will be able to compare the quality of our arguments and also see how you react if someone expresses a different opinion. 

By the way, by dressing Oswald into the dark brown-red shirt you would exclude him as Prayer Man because converting a darker shirt than CE151 into grey scale would make Prayer Man's shirt look darker than his slacks. There is only a limited range of colours which can render the same shade of grey as Prayer Man's grey slacks. Light red (CE151) is one of those colour while a dark brown-red colour (CE150) is not amongst them.

Late edit: Here is the brown-red shirt CE150 converted into a grey scale and paired with CE157 (grey pants). Do you really see this dark shirt on Prayer Man in Darnell? If not, then you have only two choices: Prayer Man wore the other Oswald's shirt CE151, or someone else than Lee Oswald wore a light-coloured shirt giving that light grey tone in Darnell film.

 

ce150_bw.jpg

 

Edited by Andrej Stancak
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The fact remains that on 11-23 Oswald said he'd been wearing a reddish shirt at the time of the shooting, and this caused Fritz and the FBI etc to lose their minds. So much so that they failed to acknowledge CE 151 was a dirty, reddish button-down collared shirt found among the dirty clothes in Oswald's room and was quite obviously the shirt Oswald was talking about. 

I mean, why did they constantly refer to this shirt as a brown or light-brown shirt? And why did they fail to show it to Oswald's co-workers? Particularly after those co-workers refused to ID CE 150 as the shirt he'd been wearing? 

To me, the answer is obvious. The fibers from CE 150 had been planted on the rifle. And the DPD knew Oswald might go free if he was to get himself a smarty-pants lawyer who could convince a jury of as much. 

This shirt mix-up might even explain why Oswald was murdered. 

Edited by Pat Speer
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11 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

You keep on speculating, why do you not add some proof for that colour assertion. I as a photographer would love to see it.

I already provided proofs by comparing both shirts, CE151 and CE150, with the pants Oswald wore on Friday morning (CE157) in my posts here. What more evidence do you need to understand that only the light-red shirt CE151 would match Prayer Man's shirt in Darnell? It is not too difficult to understand what is the consequence for Prayer Man's identity if Oswald wore CE150 (brown shirt)  during the assassination.

Edited by Andrej Stancak
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2 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

This shirt mix-up might even explain why Oswald was murdered. 

Pat:

thanks for your thorough analysis of the shirt problem in your online book at patspeer.com. 

If there would be a trial with Oswald, the "proof" of prosecution of Oswald's guilt as President's assassin owing to fibres from CE150 being on Mannlicher-Carcano rifle would have been dismissed because the defendant side would be able to prove that Lee wore the light-red CE151 during the time of the assassination. There would be questions about how could then the CE150 fibre occur on the rifle. In my opinion, the prosecutor would bailout by saying that the fibres are there because Oswald had the rifle in his possession and manipulated with it while wearing CE150 in the past. So, although the CE150 fibres on the Mannlicher Carcano rifle look bad and equal to planting false evidence, the prosecution would just lose one piece of "evidence". The shirt problem may be one but not the strongest reason for leading Lee Oswald to his death in DPD garages on Sunday morning.

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"Late edit: Here is the brown-red shirt CE150 converted into a grey scale and paired with CE157 (grey pants). Do you really see this dark shirt on Prayer Man in Darnell? If not, then you have only two choices: Prayer Man wore the other Oswald's shirt CE151, or someone else than Lee Oswald wore a light-coloured shirt giving that light grey tone in Darnell film."

Seriously? Do you have any idea what you are doing and claiming? You put Doyle to shame with this type of speculating, you have absolutely no skills when it comes to putting a brownish shirt in a b&w setting as such. You compare a how many generations old Darnell image with a shirt? Are you for real Andrej? This is the type of stupid CTer crap that brings genuine research into disrepute. 

Please put me on ignore or I will. This level of stupidity and the firm believe thereof you display simply boggles the mind. Then again this is nothing different to your 'sightings' of Lovelady and Shelley on the steps.

Goodbye.

 

I am going to get back to Pat a little later, got things to sort out first. 

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Bart:

you ran out of arguments and employ arrogance and a very personal-attacking style instead of reason. 

There are two shirts which need to be considered as candidate Prayer Man shirts. They differ substantially in how dark they would look like after converting their colours into greyscale. One (CE151) appears grey after converting it into greyscale and the level of grey corresponds to the grey seen in CE151 in Warren Commission exhibits. There is almost no difference between the greyness of CE151 (in Warren Commission exhibits or after converting coloured CE151 into a grey scale) and the greyness of the pants. This is what we see in Darnell.  It is true that Darnell film is blurred and a multiple times copied document, however, this process would affect all grey tones in the same way. Two grey spots looking similar in their greyness in the first generation copy would maintain their similarity in the fifth generation copy of Darnell.

In contrast, the CE150 is a dark brown shirt and reaches a very dark grey tone, close to black, and this difference would not be smeared by copying Darnell film over again. It is not possible that both CE151 and CE150 would match Prayer Man's shirt (and Prayer Man's pants) at the same time. Only one shirt would match (since their grey levels differ so much), and everyone needs to make a choice. My choice, supported by Lee Oswald's statements as reproduced by interrogators, is that it is the light-red shirt which Lee Oswald wore in the morning hours of November 22. Your choice, it seems, is that it was the brown shirt CE150. You will need to answer queries by other researchers asking you how a dark brown shirt can look like a light-grey shirt in Prayer Man in Darnell film.

I wanted to explain the possibility of Oswald wearing CE151 during the time of assassination for the record because the problem of Oswald's shirt is too important for Prayer Man cause to leave it unanswered. From my perspective, the record has been made.

Edited by Andrej Stancak
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There is no arrogance coming from me nor have I run out of arguments either, are you this deluded? Have you actually read and studied the evidence I put forward? Have you compared it with Speer's?

You just firmed up on something that has no factual basis from a photography / zone system p.o.v.

And obviously believe Oswald took the bus/cab etc.

I cannot argue against cemented rubbish like that, it would be a continuation of arguing against someone like Brian Doyle.

Sorry but I will refrain from countering anything you bring forward as of now on. Life is too short to be facing this gross amount of stupidity so you are on ignore mode now. 

All the best to you.

Edited by Bart Kamp
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For completeness, here are a few black-and-white photographs showing Lee Oswald after his arrest while he still had his CE150 on. The grey level of the shirt, of course, depends on the illumination and therefore, the same shirt can look almost black in poor light to medium grey when illuminated by a flash or top fluorescence light. The combinations of CE151+CE157 and CE150-CE157 are also shown.

oswalds_shirts.jpg 

Edited by Andrej Stancak
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